.351 Winchester S.L - Model 1907

[Sprue]

Here are some pics of my ole Model 1907 351 Cal Winchester Self Loader. It was made in 1926. I hope to find a Lyman/Ideal 350 series mold for it one of these days.

Thanks to some members of this forum, I now have a few jacketed along with some lead boolits and some 357 MAXIMUM cases to be formed. With in the next couple weeks, I plan to fire it for the first time. Once everything comes together.

A Live Center for the Lathe will complete and enable me to finally start making food for this little rifle. Although being short in length it makes up for it as it weights around 8 lbs. The over all lenght is only 36.5 inches.

The second picture down from the top left side in the Collage shows the only battle scare or slight blemish in the fore stock or rear stock for that matter. My guess that is from where is was stored and locked down in a police rack.

My reading and research indicates that this was one of the type of rifles that was used in bringing down Bonnie & Clyde. They were also used in the Penal Systems and predecessor to the mini-14'.

All said, the history on these rifles is very interesting to say the least. Now, if this one could only talk.




http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/351WinchesterSL1907-1.jpg


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/DSCF1194.jpg

[scrapcan]

Sprue,

Nic eto see the rifle. It will talk again just as it spoke before. We just don't undertand what it says other than the bang.

Did you getyour sizing die completed and a set reloading dies rounded up? How did the throat and bore slug?

[Sprue]

Yep... I got the Redding dies from Midway. I have everything needed to reload now except the brass turned & trimmed.

Got the Lube Die ready to go last week. The only thing I need to do now is to convert the Maxi brass.

Thanks for your support !


Oh... I still need to bore the (lube) holes in the die and buy an O-ring. This die was my first real lathe project. Without any Do-Overs even LOL.



http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/PartingTool.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/LubeDie351pic2.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/LubeDie351.jpg

[MtGun44]

I presume that brass is completely unavailable. This surprises me, since quite a few of these
rifles were made. Or is it that they just want so much money for brass?

Nice looking rifle. Isn't this what they used to knock off Bonnie and Clyde?

Bill

[scrapcan]

Sprue,

You might try the die without the oring. I can get away with it on my Lube a matic if I don't go overboard on the reservoir pressure.

I am really curious to see how you fair with this one. I see these from time to time and sometimes they are cheap, especially when the collectors aren't around.

[Char-Gar]

When I was a kid in the 1950s there were lots of those rifles in the various gun stores and pawn shops. There were not popular as they are heavy and use a fairly under powered round. A good used Win. 94 would cost $25.00 and on of those self shuckers would only fetch $15 to $20.

Lordy, but don't I wish I would have bought a couple of dozen.

[cabezaverde]

Sprue,

You and I spoke a while back about a mold. Let me dig around, I think I might have some brass/ammo.

[44mag1]

I have some .351 jacketed bullets lying around here somewhere. There yours if you want them. Ill have to dig for them.

[schutzen]

I might be wrong, but I thought Frank Hammer used BAR's to stop Bonnie and Clyde.

[DLCTEX]

I saw one at the Elk Ciry, Ok. gun show a while back that had ben reblued and restored, with a very nice display case for $1495. It was nice, but not that nice as far as I was concerned.

[Sprue]

Sprue,

You and I spoke a while back about a mold. Let me dig around, I think I might have some brass/ammo.

Golly Gee.. you've got my attention :mrgreen:

Yes by all means let me know what you come up with. I would at the very least like to get a price quote.

Thanks !

[Sprue]

I have some .351 jacketed bullets lying around here somewhere. There yours if you want them. Ill have to dig for them.

Yep... I'm all ears here too. Let me know.

Thanks much

[Sprue]

Pretty big project cutting down the rim and forming an extractor grove from 357 max brass.

Once I got the brass up to spec I then loaded three cases with a bullet only for testing purposes. I inserted 3 dummy rounds into the 5 shot magazine and did a function test by working the action attempting to chamber the new dummy loads.

Success ! all three rounds chambered and ejected flawlessly on to the carpeted floor.

Right now I only have 8 live rounds loaded for the REAL test tomorrow. If the rounds shoot and function I'll then continue the process untill I have an amble supply of ammo.

Overall my biggest concern is the brass where I provided the extractor groove. I don't like taking metal off of cases at all. Especially in that area.

My load data:

Converted 357 MAX brass

Case length: 1.380
COAL: 1.900
180gr Jkd RN
Bullet dia: .351
10.5 gr. Unique
Winchester SR Primer
Projected Velocity: 1520 fps



http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12011.jpg


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12052-1.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12155.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12113.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12124.jpg

A Special thanks to all those who have contributed and guided me through out this endeavor. I've been waiting for this day for a few years now. Although I have not test fired any rounds yet, I cannot be any more happier than at this moment.

I sure hope this glean, carries over after tomorrows actual test firing.

:Fire:

[cabezaverde]

So Far, I found 7 factory rounds - let me keep digging.

[BarryinIN]

Those WSLs (any of them) are neat. They are just dripping with early 20th century cops and robbers mystique.
Every now and then I get the urge for one, but once I dig into what it would take to get some ammo I'm talked back out of it.

[EMC45]

Local Pawn shop had one of these rifles. Neat! He said it came from a collection. It was about 98% and I don't suspect a reblue! It also had the Law Enforcement extended mag in it. I told the Pawnbroker that I had a box of original ammo for it. He was pumped up about that. I brought it in to show him and explained it was part of my antique cartridge box collection. There were 48 rounds in the 50 rd. box. He gave me 60 bucks! That was fine by me. They were given to me. The guy who eventually bought it was a reloader. He sold rifle and ammo together. All one deal.

[CC Ryder]

I have one my DAD bought new in the early 50's. Looks pretty good. I also have 8 boxes of factory ammo.
I would like to start loading for it, got some dies, need bullets.
I have the assortment of Lee shellholders but the one that is supposed to fit doesn't. I think the one shown in the chart is also for 9mm. and it almost fits. Me and Mr. Dremel can prolly fix that. It is a little tite in the web.
Any place to get bullets reasonable?

[TAWILDCATT]

just remember its a blow back action,dont over load for it.I have a picture of one in 1930s photo.the man is out hunting.I will try to post as it is interesting.:coffee:

[44mag1]

I found some jacketed bullets, pm me with your address and Ill send them to you.

[CC Ryder]

When my Dad died I inherited the 351. It has the curved end on the operating rod, some have a round knob. I think the curved end is prolly later.
Dad had short arms and had cut off the buttstock about 2".
I found a gun that someone had drilled and tapped, broken off one of the sling swivels, etc. The buttstock was in great shape.
Swapped it out and traded off the lesser one.
Now it is all original; looks really good.
CC

[Sprue]

Well, I did fire 10 test rounds last month. I haven't taken the time to load up any more. Its kind of a slow process machining down the brass or at least until I get several cases converted.

As for the test firing, all 10 failed to eject. I had very slight pressure signs so I will load the next ones down a bit. Two things I'm thinking that contributed to the failure to eject. One is that the cases probably needed to have been fire formed first and the second reason is that the chamber is pitted somewhat.

My thinking is that there are no issues with the converted brass itself cause the extractor seemed to work properly. The fired cases looked okay when I got them out.

As for the load data I used, there really isn't much of a variance window for the charge at all. At least from what I came up with during my research anyway.

Input anyone ??

[No_1]

Sprue,

I remember seeing info on the 351 S/L in old manuals I have so I went to digging. I only found data in 2 manuals, the Ideal/Lyman #40 and the Lyman #44. I did look in the manuals that are before these, between these and after these and oddly there was not data in them.

Anyway......

The #40 manual shows OAL of 1.906, case length 1.375, dia at rim .407, dia at base .377, dia at shoulder "straight", dia at neck .373. Mould listed is Ideal/Lyman 351319 which is a RNGC mould.

For loads I will list them as: powder - min charge/vel - max charge/vel

177 Gr. RNGC:
2400-15.0/1600-19.0/1900
4227-16.0/1550-19.5/1800
4759-13.5/1500-19.0/1950
unique-10.5/1590

180 Jacketed
2400-15.0/1530-19.0/1870
4227-16.0/1510-19.5/1800
4759-13.5-1500-19.0/1900
unique-10.5/1565
Notes: "Mechanism will not function properly if cartridges are loaded to low. Try near max"

In the #44 manual shows AOL 1.900, max case length 1.380, trim to length 1.376, small rifle primer, Lyman shell holder #15. "To insure positive functioning of the action, loads must be worked up to near maximum. 348 gas checks are used with cast bullets for this cartridge. At best our test accuracy with this cartridge could only be considered as fair. Best overall results were obtained with cast bullets and IMR4227 powder"

Lyman 350319
unique-12.0/1501-12.5/1751
2400-17.0/1861-19.0/2020
IMR4227-17.0/1658-19.6/1904
Note: Accuracy load: IMR4227-19.5/1904

180 Gr Jacketed
unique-10.0/1501-11.0/1587
2400-17.0/1597-19.0/1793
IMR4227-17.0/1400-19.5/1751

R.

[Doble Troble]

From what I've read Bonnie and Clyde collected all sorts of lead, launched from all sorts of guns. I read somewhere else (I think it was Precision Shooting) that Frank Hamer liked the Remington Model 8 (don't remember the chambering) and the 38 super.

Clyde liked the BAR. I guess even criminals sometimes have good taste.

[hydraulic]

Back sometime in the '80's the Nebraska Highway Patrol traded off their 1907's in exchange for Mini 14's, gun for gun, plus ammo. A friend won the auction and I wound up buying the last dozen from him. Most of them were bought by the officers who had carried them. They were engraved on the receiver with the badge number of the first class of highway patrol officers that graduated in 1938, if memory serves. They were the Police Model with the 10 rd magazine and the cup shaped loading rod. I hauled them around the gun shows for a couple of years trying to get $200 before I finally sold them. It has been quite a few years, now, since I have heard from anyone, but I used to get calls from retired HP officers wanting to know if I had any left. I think Frank Hammer used a Model 1910 .401. There was a company in St. Louis that made a 20 round magazine, (ST. Louis Plolice Supply?) for the WSL, and I think that is what he had. I'm going on memory here, so I may not have all this right.

[hydraulic]

Doble: You're right; Hammer had a Model 8 with the above alterations.

[scrapcan]

Sprue,

You should look at making a from tool to turn rim and thin case head at the same time. run the case on the mandrel, leave the cross slide set with the micrometer ring set at zero and just feed it in using the mic ring. That would make it a quicker process. You could make your form tool by using a finished case as your tool gage.

[inuhbad]

Hello everyone!

I was just in the process of typing up a new post seeking more information on this round, and then I came across this particular thread doing a search!

Good info here!

My uncle is a pretty big collector of antique & rarity firearms, and he recently purchased 1907 Winchester Self Loading rifles that are chambered in the rare Winchester .351SL cartridge...

He was hoping that if I could figure out a way to make/load some cartridges for them...

I've got load data books going back to 1982, and I STILL couldn't find any data for this cartridge in my books. From reading online, it would appear to be an older caliber considered obsolete a long time ago... Probably not popularly reloaded as most models were used in law enforcement.

I believe that's where my uncle acquired them... From an auction of old Prison Guard Armory rifles.

Occasionally he can find a little bit of ammo for them at a gunshow, but they're running over $2 PER ROUND! Even MORE if the ammo comes in an original BOX!

Also, I learned that http://www.buffaloarms.com/ happens to SELL reloading dies for the 351 Winchester Self Loading round, but they're running $163.00 for a set of RCBS dies. It's the only place I can find this particular die though...

They also sell brass cases in boxes (Bertram MFG) for $158/100 cases...
They sell brass cases in bags of 100 (don't know the Mfg info) for $110/100 cases...
They sell brass made from 357 MAXIMUM for $57/100 cases as well...

They sell a .352" RCBS Lubrisizer Die for $44.95 too...

That said, I'm having the darndest time trying to find a Lyman #350319 Bullet Mould!!!

Anybody know where I can find a Lyman #350319 Bullet Mould?

This bullet perportedly uses the 447 Top Punch as well for a Lube-A-Matic RCBS Lubrisizer...

I'm hoping to find this mould, and get everything I need to start making some of these bullets for my uncle and I. It's going to be an expensive startup cost, but well worth it in the end I hope!

Any good load data you've found on these yet for reliable cycling? Any updates since your last posting?

This is GREAT information! Thanks!!! :drinks:

[waksupi]

Form from .357 mag. Turn rim to .410 dia.and cut extractor groove. This case will be approximately .090 short,but will function Ok.

From Nonte's, "The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions".

[cuzinbruce]

Hi inuhbad,
If you want to buy dies, try Midway or someone else for Redding ones. I think they are much less than the RCBS. Midway also has brass, for less than Bertram. Older Lyman manuals have loading data. Look for manuals before 1960 or so. The 350319 mold is pretty hard to find. I saw one go for almost $300 on eBay a couple days ago. (And it was a single cavity mold at that!!!) I have been looking for one for a while. Another option I have read about, but haven't tried yet, is to use a .38 Special round nose cast bullet. Size it down in a couple steps, say .358, then .354, then .352 or something like that. Depending on what sizer dies you have.
Good Luck,
Bruce

[inuhbad]

Will the Redding dies work in my RCBS Rock Chucker 2 loading press? Is the threading/size the same?

Maybe I should get the Redding dies instead then?

Just curious as I didn't know they were the same... Are they?

Since I started loading in 2003 I've stuck primarily with Lyman & RCBS since I know they're almost always 100% compatible & interchangable.

Thanks for the great advice!!!

[KCSO]

Up until the late 70's these were still issue weapons for the State patrol in Nebraska. Tey sold them all off in the 80's. A Trooper buddy of mine carried one for years and when they sold them he didn't want to put the money $125 into one and now he wishes he had one. Although marginal for deer they were head and shoulders above a 30 carbine.

[cuzinbruce]

Redding, Lyman, RCBS, Lee and most other dies interchange. Same 7/8 X 14 thread. Shellholders too.

[sav300]

Sprue PM please.re:351 ammo.

[Wayne Smith]

For dies for almost any old or unusual round start with CH4D. Their list of available dies is amazing.

[Oldtimer]

Hi,
Hearing about these old rifles brings back some memories. I worked for the local police dept back in the early 70's. They had a good number of .351's as well as .401's. Even had probably a half dozen or so Thompson 45's. We used to take them out to the range and burn up a lot of ammo. The Tompsons were a ball to shoot. The best thing I remember about the .351's was the tremendous amount of recoil they had. They used to just kill my shoulder. Good luck finding ammo, and have fun. Be careful. Bob

[inuhbad]

Thanks for the info, everybody!!!

Also, I think I found a company that can make me a 2-Cavity Casting Mould for these boolits too!

I'll have to confirm this though.

[inuhbad]

I just picked up the set of Redding Dies for this caliber yesterday.

There was a small local shop that had one in stock! He told me it's such an odd caliber he kind of regretted buying that set of dies because it sat there on his shelves for years & years!

Nobody ever bought it, and he said he certainly won't make the mistake of keeping that caliber of die set as 'overhead' again! [smilie=l:

Loading for this caliber should prove interesting though!

I'm happy to see that his local gunshop also had 357 Maximum brass - brand new in a bag for cheaper than MidwayUSA!

I probably spent more at his reloading shop than I should have though!

I hope I can get to the credit card bill before my wife does! :shock:

[omygosh]

I recently inherited a very nice and pristine 351. As everyone knows the ammo is the trick and I have already purchased the brass and bullets for reloading. I am open to the idea of possibly selling a couple of 10 round factory clips to finance the cost of purchasing a press and dies needed. If anyone is interested please let me know.

[Sprue]

Welcome ohmygosh......

When you get 25 posts I think it is, you might run an add in the Swapping/ Selling area.

Funny that this thread was re-kindled, I was just handling the old 351 SL earlier.

Way back when this thread started I was in the manufacturing or converting phase. I eventually did do some test firing. After that session I've never tried to improve my findings nor did anything further. I need to get back on this project though.

So I trust that you got a good deal on those 351 dies after that guy had them shelved all that time. I bought the Reddings from Midway but I don't like em. I think that 38/357 dies would be worthy if my memory serves me correctly although I haven't tried those yet, but I'm gonna.

What year is your rifle ?

Pull up a chair / take the stump and tell us a little more about your experiences.

over -... -.-

[Buckshot]

..............Apparently the 351 was a very popular firearm with several state prison systems. When we remodled and added a 2nd bathroom the guy who owned the plumbing company and I somehow or the other got to talking guns and he asked me about brass for a .401 Winchester. I had a article by Holt Boddison on the .401 and copied and gave it to him. Holt called it "The Blammer" because he said when you fired it it went, "Blam" :-)

...............Buckshot

[jbunny]

IIRC it was used in WW1 in an aircraft. they had large cappacity mags
the gunner in the back seat would shoot at other aircraft and targets on the ground.
i rebuilt 2 of these a few years ago. gun parts corp still has parts for these. the
buffer washer should be changed on these old guns as they wear out. there is quite a
trick puting that spring back in after u change the buffer washer. hehehe.
jb

[levallois]

Glad to see this website. I've got two of these rifles - one is being turned into a 1930s Lebman replica 1907 as we speak (barrel comp and thompson forearm).

I'm hooked and need to reload so this site is a great find for me.

I'd like to address how popular these were in the "old days." There is a guy on the www, "351 winchester" is his moniker, that could do better than I but here goes.

When I was looking for info. about the 1907, it seemed like everything I read had something about how both lawmen and law-breakers used the rifle before WWII but with few details. So just how popular was the 1907? The following is what I have see thus far about who used this rifle for good or evil in the 1930s:

Dillinger gang - 2 found at the Congress Hotel and 1 in JD's car when they arrested him in Tucson
- Eddie Green - member of the gang - found a 1907 in his apartment after a shootout in St. Paul
- Little Bohemia Lodge - a 1907 was left behind when the gang scattered during the shootout
- Homer van Meter - member of the gang - the 1907 was his favorite - apparently with a Thompson-like forearm and Cutts compensator along with at least a 10-round mag

Baby Face Nelson - used one to kill two G-men when he was mortally wounded in 1934 - apparently there is mounting evidence that Baby Face's Thompson jammed and he then picked up a Lebman-modified 1907 to kill the two Gmen on the night he was mortally wounded.

Russell Gibson - member of Karpis/Barker gang killed by a 1907 used by Doc White. At least one of the six .351 rounds fired punched through his bullet proof vest.

Alvin Karpis - arrested by G-man named Hurt who was carring a 1907

Alva Hunt/Hugh Gant gang - had a 1907 when they were captured in Florida in 1938

Bonnie and Clyde left a 1907 behind after a shootout (I'm still working on the details of this one). Also Clyde apparently gave Ray Hamilton two 1907s as parting gifts when they split up.

Harvey Bailey - member of Machine Gun Kelly's gang - captured holding 1907 while asleep on a porch in Texas.

Fred Burke - supposedly responsible for St Valentine's Day Massacre and Al Capone associate - a 1907 was found in his gun cache when police raided his bungalow in 1929. These guns were though to have been used in the massacre! So it's possible a 1907 was used in the most infamous mass murder during the gangster era!!

Fred (and Ma) Barker might have been shot with one - Doc White had his 351 at the shootout.

The good guys liked them too with members of the following organizations:

Texas Rangers - George Chapman carried one
Border Patrol - Charles Askins carried one
FBI - Walter Walsh and Doc White each carried one



The 1907 was at least as popular as the TSMG, so why don't we here about these guns today? Also, by just about every account out there, a 1907 was NOT present at the ambush of Bonnie and Clyde.

As several people have put it, this was the original urban carbine.

John

[omygosh]

Sprue
Thank you for the welcome...For some reason this 351 has become one of my favorite in my collection since I inherited it. Had it about 4 months and it came with 4 clips and 8 boolits that had the trigger pulled on them and were duds (probable due to their age)
I really knew nothing about this gun until I started researching it and I was very suprised at the history of the gun.
The history behind this gun made me want to shoot it all the more so I seached the internet for information as to what is needed to reload the duds and had a friend that reloads a lot help me out. he did get them reloaded and I ordered brass and bullets which arrived a month or so ago.
I did obtain pieces from a Lee Loader yesterday from an old mom and pop type gun shop. All they had was the priming chamber,the bullet seater and the body die for resizing. I had all the other parts that will work from my 30.06 Lee Loader set.
Bought some powder today (imr 4227)and as soon as my scale comes in I think I am ready to reload these myself.
The main thing I am after is I want my grandson to have the know how and knowledge to keep the gun going when I pass it on to him.
I will try and get some pictures post of the old beast soon and post them so you can see what kind of shape the gun is in but most people are suprised to see the condition she is in.

[firefly1957]

I have my grandfather's Winchester Model 1907 and have been reloading for it for about 20 years. Two deer have been taken during this time I have not recovered a single case fired while hunting and lose some no matter how careful when target shooting.
Last deer season I put .351 cartridges in a box next to some .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) and was surprised by how close they where the only difference was the missing semi rim of the .351.
After some research I trimmed some 223 cases to the length of a 351 primed them and run them in gun primers fired so I loaded a few with speer 160 half jacket bullets SWAGED TO .351 diameter they functioned fine in my rifle. I do not use heavy loads in these but just enough to eject and feed reliably, it seems that they actually head space more on ejector then case mouth as I cut a few short to test and they did work fine. I have used both swaged cast and jacketed .357 bullets (@.351 diameter) with good accuracy and feeding . I plan to use this gun and trimmed down .223 cases for pest control now that I have easy to make cases. I have .351 RCBS dies but have used 38/357 mag to load. I use lee factory crimp die to hold bullet firmly in place as no one puts crimp groove in the right place on their bullets for the 351 which is only .2 inches in case. I have loaded and fired some of these cases 11 times with no problems but remember the case volume is not the same as .351 so those loads may be too hot at maximum loads.
For deer hunting I use a Sierra 170 gr. JHC SWAGED TO .351 and 351 cases this bullet is very destructive and when I use the remaining 40 I have loaded (loaded 100 in 1995) I will switch to a non hollow point. Above hunting load shoots 1 inch 50 yd groups!

[TCLouis]

Just think how this would have performed for our GI's if they had it to use rather than the 30 Carbine round. I would bet some folks would be alive today that aren't because of the effectiveness of the 30 Cal. Carbine.

Besides then it would be readily available today for us to play with.

[Sprue]

I have my grandfather's Winchester Model 1907 and have been reloading for it for about 20 years. Two deer have been taken during this time I have not recovered a single case fired while hunting and lose some no matter how careful when target shooting.
Last deer season I put .351 cartridges in a box next to some .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) and was surprised by how close they where the only difference was the missing semi rim of the .351.
After some research I trimmed some 223 cases to the length of a 351 primed them and run them in gun primers fired so I loaded a few with speer 160 half jacket bullets SWAGED TO .351 diameter they functioned fine in my rifle. I do not use heavy loads in these but just enough to eject and feed reliably, it seems that they actually head space more on ejector then case mouth as I cut a few short to test and they did work fine. I have used both swaged cast and jacketed .357 bullets (@.351 diameter) with good accuracy and feeding . I plan to use this gun and trimmed down .223 cases for pest control now that I have easy to make cases. I have .351 RCBS dies but have used 38/357 mag to load. I use lee factory crimp die to hold bullet firmly in place as no one puts crimp groove in the right place on their bullets for the 351 which is only .2 inches in case. I have loaded and fired some of these cases 11 times with no problems but remember the case volume is not the same as .351 so those loads may be too hot at maximum loads.
For deer hunting I use a Sierra 170 gr. JHC SWAGED TO .351 and 351 cases this bullet is very destructive and when I use the remaining 40 I have loaded (loaded 100 in 1995) I will switch to a non hollow point. Above hunting load shoots 1 inch 50 yd groups!

Thanks for your contribution .... & Welcome to the Forum.

Roger

[CC Ryder]

firefly1957,
I am interested in swaging some bullets to 351. I've been loading for about 50 years but have never done anything like swaging. I have hulls, dies, etc. but bullets are hard to come by.
What equipment is needed for swaging? Is the 351 size available in a swager??

[Sprue]

Good question CC..... I'm all ears. Did you PM him? That way when he logs on the next time he will get a popup.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/351WinchesterSL1907-1.jpg

[M4Sherman]

It is a pretty neat rifle and I would love to have one but they are way out of my price range :( But anyway I have about 195rnds of the ammo (50 of which are forsale on this forum) but no use for it until I find the rifle.

[beagle]

They really aren't that overpriced. Seems like I gave $300 for mine and a box of ammo at a gun show several years back. The Deluxe checkered stock models get pricey but most are old prison and LE guns and have been rode hard and put away wet./beagle

[M4Sherman]

Well My most expensive gun is my 1894 Winchester and it cost about $400, I almost cried until I took it shooting.

[Czech_too]

I thought this might be of interest due to slightly different dimensions show from previous posts. That could be due to different mfg. though.

[jbunny]

for the people still shooting these relics, gun parts corp has some parts for these.
they are a straight blow back design and the bufferwasher on the back of the rod should
probly be changed or looked at very carefuly. it,s quite a trick puting that long spring back in. heheghe.

[levallois]

Sprue - that's a beautiful 1907 !!

Here are my two - a standard with factory deluxe wood and a Lebman replica like those used by the Dillinger gang with a compensator, 10-round mag, aluminum forearm, and TSMG grip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Levallois/Lebmanvsstock1907.jpg

[Shooter]

For anyone with a 1910 .401SL.
Brass can be fire-formed from 7.62X39 case.
They can be reloaded with .41 Mag. Dies/

[looseprojectile]

When reading this thread I remembered that I have some of that ammo.
When I did a search I found that One is .351 Win. The other fourteen are
35 SLR cartridges and are a whole lot shorter than .351 Win.
What the heck rifle shoots 35 SLR ammo? Just looking at them the cases appear to be about the length of 38 special cases. The bullets seem to be the same in both rounds. Seems to me that the shorter rounds would be kind of puny.

Life is good

[levallois]

The 35 slr was chambered in the 1905 Winchester semi-auto. The rifle was basically a slightly smaller version of the 1907. And, yes, the round was puny which is why Winchester came up with the .351. People who own 1905s are always on the look out for ammo so you might post them on Gunbroker or the like?

John

[Sprue]

Sure is a lot of good info being posted here.

Keep it up guys !

Heres a mould I got a few months back from a board member here

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/e457f05c.jpg

[M4Sherman]

Almost had one on GB that had been scoped but I was out bidded in the last 30 :( ahh well I will keep looking.

[Sprue]

Almost had one on GB that had been scoped but I was out bidded in the last 30 :( ahh well I will keep looking.

What did it go for ?

[M4Sherman]

$395ish I had place a bid of $389 and that held for two says :(

[M4Sherman]

If anyone wants to do some trading I will swap 100rnds plus cash for one of these rifles (hell If I Cant find a rifle I will sell all of the ammo)

[Greg in Malad]

Sprue,
Its good to see that mold is getting used, it wasn't doing me any good. How does it cast? and have you had the chance to shoot any of the boolits?

[Sprue]

Well hi Greg, I couldn't remember your name...... Since I already had/have 200 or so cast boolits before I bought your mold, I actually haven't cast the first boolit from your mold yet, LOL

As for the 351 I haven't had it out since last year, just too many things going on. But I hope to get back on that project soon. BTW that ole rifle feels like it weighs 20 lbs.

Good to hear from ya Greg, hope all is well down your way.

cya
Roger

[riceone]

I became a proud owner of a 351 about a week ago. I am looking for dies and would like some 357 Max brass if anyone can point me to some. Very interesting read. riceone.

[Sprue]

Well you're in luck, you can use 357 mag dies and Midway has Maximum brass for about 25 bucks a hundered.

Here is what you are looking for (http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#357%20max____-_1-2-4_8-16-32)

Me, I spent 70 bucks on a set of new Redding dies and I don't like 'em. Beagle, a member of this forum, told me that the 357 mag dies would work but I didn't listen.

Keep us posted..........

[Sprue]

If my memory is right, I believe that someone said that they didn't even cut the extractor groove.

Beagle ......... for where art thou ? Please chime in.

Roger

[Charley]

If my memory is right, I believe that someone said that they didn't even cut the extractor groove.

Beagle ......... for where art thou ? Please chime in.

Roger

Depends on the individual rifle. Mine doesn't need a new extractor cut, function is 100% without it.

[trentonrat]

Pretty big project cutting down the rim and forming an extractor grove from 357 max brass.

Once I got the brass up to spec I then loaded three cases with a bullet only for testing purposes. I inserted 3 dummy rounds into the 5 shot magazine and did a function test by working the action attempting to chamber the new dummy loads.

Success ! all three rounds chambered and ejected flawlessly on to the carpeted floor.

Right now I only have 8 live rounds loaded for the REAL test tomorrow. If the rounds shoot and function I'll then continue the process untill I have an amble supply of ammo.

Overall my biggest concern is the brass where I provided the extractor groove. I don't like taking metal off of cases at all. Especially in that area.

My load data:

Converted 357 MAX brass

Case length: 1.380
COAL: 1.900
180gr Jkd RN
Bullet dia: .351
10.5 gr. Unique
Winchester SR Primer
Projected Velocity: 1520 fps



http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12011.jpg


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12052-1.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12155.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12113.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/Dscf12124.jpg

A Special thanks to all those who have contributed and guided me through out this endeavor. I've been waiting for this day for a few years now. Although I have not test fired any rounds yet, I cannot be any more happier than at this moment.

I sure hope this glean, carries over after tomorrows actual test firing.

:Fire:
i have the same rifle but i have no clips, can you tell me where i can buy one. the rifle is in mint condition. thanks trentonrat

[Sprue]

No but hopefully someone here will come through for ya........ just keep on looking you'll find one.

[Sprue]

Well there is one listed on Gun Broker. I paid 50 bucks for mine a few years ago.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=185272879

[KCSO]

Also issued to the Nebraska State Patrol, he officers had a chance to buy them when they were discontinued in the 1980's????. I dis remember the exact date and may be off a few years. Alas Old age everything was just yesterday.

[M4Sherman]

I still have yet to find a rifle :( any who I have some brass and bullets (150+) for sale to those who are interested

[M4Sherman]

Yay I found one at a local shop for $400 bucks *happy dance* now I have got to get the cash together

[M4Sherman]

Well I am now the proud owner of a 1907 Winchester with a serial or 35XXX. (Pictures) below. overall it is a great looking rifle but I think it might have been re-blued and also the forearm has a crack but for $409 I aint complaining

[M4Sherman]

also how do you reload them with 357 magnum dies? Mine expand the case way to much to use a factory bullet

[firefly1957]

In Swaging you bump a bullet up in diameter sizing is reducing the diameter and I bet a call to Lee would get a die for $29 from what i see. I takes a bit of effort to size a .357 to 351 but a reloading press will do it just use case lube on the bullet first.
I have 351 RCBS dies but have loaded with 38/357 dies but sometimes the bullet will not crimp tightly and the Lee factory crimp die for 38/357 mag will fix this .

Trentonrat try trimming some 223/5.56 NATO to length and see if they feed in your gun this is what I have been working with but have not loaded to full pressure because I do have real 351 brass for full loads. My loads are 158gr jacketed 160 half jacket and 162 gr cast at about 1700 fps.

[Andy_P]

I have loaded quite a bit for both the 351 WSL and 401 WSL.

Brass - 357 Maximum and 414 Super Mag brass are perfect brass to modify. For both, it's a simple job for someone with a lathe - reduce rim diameter and deepen extractor groove (in one operation with a profiled bit), and reduce in length.

Bullets - 38/357 Mag bullets sized down to 0.352", or 41 Mag bullets sized down to 0.406" with a custom sizer like "Buckshot" makes.

Dies - use 38/357 Mag and 41 Mag Dies, although "correct" dies are out there. You might find insufficient neck tension in the 351 (I haven't with the shortened Remington 357 Max brass) but a crimp will take care of that.

Loads - H4227 (or IMR4227 or other powders very similar in Burn Rate) is the powder. Use a full or near full case (loads are out there) and forget the other powders. As already stated, if you use too light a load, the action won't cycle properly, but there's a related phenonemom that I've observed, but not seen discussed. If you use powders much faster than H4227 (like Unique, or even Blue Dot), there are loads that will not fully cycle the action (weak or incomplete extraction), stronger loads that will, and then if you go any higher (even though the MV is quite low, say 1300-1500 fps), you will find that the action will again not cycle - it essentially "locks". What I think is happening is that these faster powders reach peak pressure much earlier than H4227, and that is causing the cartridge case to grip the chamber walls and prevent the blowback to occur. With slower powders (and even with higher peak pressures), the peak occurs later (we're talking micro-seconds) and the cartridge case is already "free" of the chamber.

[firefly1957]

Interesting Thoughts on powder I had a similar problem with AL-8 the load worked fine when testing trimmed .223 cases functioning well then the next 20 rounds reloaded action would not cycle with same load ? Switching to 2400 made everything OK again. MY GUN does work well on minimum load like a 160 gr bullet at 1700f/s. Something many people do not realize is these guns are full blowback operation the breech is only held shut by weight of bolt and spring tension.
I have notes in my reloading note book on blue dot because it has caused sudden pressure problems in 44 mag and 357-44 brain & Davis. I use it in 45 ACP and 12 ga with no problems at all both use less than half the pressure of the previous cartridges.

[M4Sherman]

I finnally got my .357 dies to work and I must say they do a great job. Also Has anyone tried 18gn of 296?

[Sprue]

Back from the dungeon...

Anyone fired any rounds lately?

I've got to dig thru some stuff and reclaim some fired and some newly formed brass.

I'm hopeful for another outing w/ 351 S.L.

[beagle]

Been on a trip for a little while.

Grumble on the old Shooter's forum had one and his would shoot the straight .357 Mag case without modifying the extractor groove.

I've looked at .38 AMU cases and they'll chamber but are pretty short. I've been planning to try some but havent yet.

I was wondering the other day how you were coming along with your .351 project./beagle


If my memory is right, I believe that someone said that they didn't even cut the extractor groove.

Beagle ......... for where art thou ? Please chime in.

Roger

[firefly1957]

I have some rounds setting there waiting to shoot other thinks keep getting in the way mostly weather but the other day I lost the screw from the sight on my 1911 and am trying to find a new rear sight or screw to a triangle sight for vertical adjustment.

HAVE YOU LOOKED INTO TRIMMING .223/.556 CASES FOR THE 351?

[beagle]

I've heard this can be done but you'd also have to neck ream or they'd be thick. Sprue's method is the more commonly accepted method.

The .351's fun to play with but I'm kinda getting tired of playing with mine. About time to move on to something else./beagle



I have some rounds setting there waiting to shoot other thinks keep getting in the way mostly weather but the other day I lost the screw from the sight on my 1911 and am trying to find a new rear sight or screw to a triangle sight for vertical adjustment.

HAVE YOU LOOKED INTO TRIMMING .223/.556 CASES FOR THE 351?

[firefly1957]

Beagle my original 351 cases have thick cases the same as .556 military brass when trimmed without turning.

[beagle]

Mine are pretty thick too. About like the military .30 Carbine brass. Heck, give it atry and see what gives. I've looked at the dimensions and compared them and there are differences but the .351 seems to be pretty forgiving as to dimensions.

I have about a box of the modified .357 Max brass .351s and about 400 once fired ratholed thanks to KYwoodwrkr so I'm not out hustling brass./beagle

[firefly1957]

I got a small bag of 351 brass back in the 1970's at a gun show I think I gave $10 for brass and reloading dies. I also have some boxes of factory load 351 the few I have fired seemed quite hot ejecting shells very far and recoil was noticeably more then reloads. Trouble is I never find the cases when hunting so looked for substitute and set some spent 223 next to 351 and thought those are close taking measurements I decided it was worth a try. THey seem to work well but have only used minimum loads so far with 160 gr bullets.
Another problem I encounter is the cases with copper primers have mercury in them and that effects the zinc in the brass and it often splits either after firing or when reloading.

[Sprue]

You didn't mention where they're splitting. What about annealing them ?

[beagle]

Yeah, mine throws them about 20 feet also. I shoot against a building side so that I can recover them. That would make a potent little deer cartridge if the rifle wasn't so blamed heavy. Reminds me of toting a Thompson SMG./beagle

[beagle]

I anealed my old brass and it did all right./beagle


You didn't mention where they're splitting. What about annealing them ?

[firefly1957]

Sprue They split just above web lengthwise on the case it is weakening from mercury annealing will be no help. Also to close to web to anneal. These cases do have copper primers and often nickel jackets and are very old.

beagle The current just functioning the action loads I am using drop cases next to me. Some mixed factory loads I had sent them over twenty feet I did place a sheet of plywood upright to keep them closer but discovered quickly that they are also very HOT!

[beagle]

Yeah, plywood is the same thing I'm doing with the side of the building. I also have a army mosquito net that I set up sometines and it catches them all.

I was surprised when I first shot them that it had as much recoil as it does. Guess all those moving parts enhances recoil.

Never shota .401 and I haven't been tempted yet so I don't know about that one./beagle

[firefly1957]

Moving parts are all that the gun has it fires from a unlocked breach so the weight of the bolt is all that is between you and disaster.
The 401 is not really a lot more power I think it adds 200f/s to the 180 gr bullet.
I saw a model 1910 (401) in a local gun shop last year it was awful tempting good thing I did not have $500 at the time.

[beagle]

Plenty of the .401s around here in KY seems like. I see several at every gun show that I attend but thankfully, so far, no itch for them. Plenty of .351s as well. Think mine was a former Indiana Prison rifle./beagle

[Shooter]

.401 brass is easily fire-formed from 7.62X39, and loaded with .41 Mag. dies.

[firefly1957]

Thanks I will keep it in mind.

[threedflyer]

I currently own two 1907 .351's and very much enjoy shooting/loading for the round.
Found a source for bullets and that really helps!

Now I am on the hunt for a good condition .401 to go with these......very cool piece of history!

3-D

[firefly1957]

threedflyer What do you use for bullets? I did not know there was a source of .351 Diameter bullets currently.

[cuzinbruce]

There is someone on Gunbroker selling copper plated bullets for the .351. Or see if you can find an old mold.
I have two 1907's and am about to start reloading for them. And just found a 1910 .401 two weeks ago.

[firefly1957]

I have the Lyman mold for .351 I have not used it as I find I can resize .357 bullets to 351 and they shoot quite well. I am surprised at how many people do shoot the old round yet !

[threedflyer]

threedflyer What do you use for bullets? I did not know there was a source of .351 Diameter bullets currently.

There is a fellow named Don who goes by "Mistynook" on Gunbroker. He sells a very good gas checked lead round nose for the .351 for a reasonable price.
Fast delivery!

Here is a link to his auction page, you can contact him through the link.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=276871815

I have shot these and just received 300 more.

Tom

[firefly1957]

Thanks I size my own from .357 bullets but others are not as lucky that is why I asked.

[richhodg66]

Reviving an old thread here. I recently learned my youngest brother is teh proud owner of a Model 1907. He does handload, but doesn't cast and isn't nearly the handloading geek that I am.

Soooo, I'm intrigued with the problem set of producing ammo for this rifle. I'm in the process of hunting up some dies, we have a gun show nearby and there's usually an older genleman who deals in all kinds of old reloading stuff, who I hope will have a set.

Now for bullets. It seems the undersized .35 bullet molds are hard to find and I'm not sure the molds I have will size down well enough. I have the Lyman 358311 which is the one I would preferto try. Once I get a .352 sizer, I'll see if it will sized down without deforming too much.

While at a gun shop in anpother town that generally has a lot of old stuff, but isn't as well organized as it could be, I ran across a pristine Ideal 350447, nominally 183 grain gas check design for the .348 Winchester. I don't have it yet because the owner wasn't there to give me a price and I wanted to consult here. Will this bullet work? It's the right weight range. I guess it will depend on how large they drop from that mold.

Did Lyman ever make .351 or .352 sized dies? Anyone know where I could get one? I know Lee will make a push through sizer in whatever size a guy needs, and I'll go that route if need be, but I'd like to use my 450 for sizing and lubing.

[firefly1957]

richhodg66 Do you have cases? I size .357 bullets to .351 with good lock these are both jacketed and cast . The 351 can be loaded with dies for 38 special or .357 mag just the shell holder is different. Any more questions I can answer later as I am watching the thread.

[trudgin]

351 sl dies, I have loaded for my 351 using 357 mag dies, the case sizes mic out the same and seem to work out good and doesn't cost a bunch for dies....Old west scrounger makes ammo for this gun useing 357 max cases. The thing I have run into is the bullets, thanks to a posting here I will make my own sizing die and see how that works...Thanks for the post Spruce....

[firefly1957]

Not sure if i put it in this thread but i have had good luck trimming .223/5.56 NATO cases to the proper length and using them . I have kept these loads just at the point were they function my gun well and not loaded them to full pressure yet.

[RSVmax]

I recently picked up a .351 from a friend and would love to be able to shoot it! Finding ammo is proving to be more of a pain than I had expected. I did find some but for $3 plus per round I think I'd rather reload... My dad has an old press that he's willing to let me use... no idea make but I think its a lyman... but he doesn't have dies for .351 just .357 and .38sp... If anyone is willing to help a newbie get started on making some ammo for this gun I'd really appreciate the assistance. Also, if anyone is selling bulk .351 rounds or brass/bullets I'd be interested in making an offer. Thanks for reading this and hope to hear from someone soon.

-Ryan

[firefly1957]

RSVmax did you read the above posts? You can reload the 351 with 357 mag. dies fine the trouble is getting good brass and bullets I have a sizer that resizes .357 pistol bullets to .351 and i use them . You can send me a personal message or reply here were are you at? Cases can be made several ways they are listed above the simplest is probably using .223/5.56 NATO shortened to proper length good starting loads can be used from a .357 loading manual remember the gun is recoil operated and the breach is not locked so watch for pressure signs . These are great old guns mine was made in 1916 and is in excellent shape i have taken two deer with it and have shot 1" fifty yard groups at 50 yds. using RESIZED 170 gr Sierra JHC bullets . Those bullets are not a great choice for deer as they do terrible damage though they do punch though a deer all the way.

[threedflyer]

I recently picked up a .351 from a friend and would love to be able to shoot it! Finding ammo is proving to be more of a pain than I had expected. I did find some but for $3 plus per round I think I'd rather reload... My dad has an old press that he's willing to let me use... no idea make but I think its a lyman... but he doesn't have dies for .351 just .357 and .38sp... If anyone is willing to help a newbie get started on making some ammo for this gun I'd really appreciate the assistance. Also, if anyone is selling bulk .351 rounds or brass/bullets I'd be interested in making an offer. Thanks for reading this and hope to hear from someone soon.

-Ryan

Ryan,
Drop me an email regarding bullets/brass for your .351, and include your phone number.
Tom
tomgraham01@msn.com

[Holescreek]

This is my first post on this forum, lucky for me that this thread popped up on a google search. I recently pieced an '07 Winchester together and have been trying to figure out how to make some ammo for it. I bought 100 cast bullets from Mistynook on GB, 190gr round nose with a gas check and needed some brass. I tried cutting off a .223 as mentioned earlier in this thread but my extractor wouldn't catch the rim at all so I picked up some .357 max brass at a gun show.

I turned a piece of aluminum to act as a mandrel to hold the case in the lathe. The mandrel is stepped to accommodate the taper inside the brass case. The small diameter allows the bottom of the case to sit flat against the end with the live center pressing the case against the end of the mandrel The point of the center actually goes through the flash hole so I had to center drill the mandrel for clearance.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Holescreek/Gunstuff/1907%20Winchester/DSCF5740_zps493e47b6.jpg

The HSS tool bit is ground to give the ejector flat and 18 degree taper for the extractor groove.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Holescreek/Gunstuff/1907%20Winchester/DSCF5739_zpsec5e59f3.jpg

I turned the rim to .41" and set the cross slide to zero to use on all the other cases.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Holescreek/Gunstuff/1907%20Winchester/DSCF5741_zps6d5b555f.jpg

Next I moved over to the top of the rim and plunged the tool bit in .056" to form the extractor groove.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Holescreek/Gunstuff/1907%20Winchester/DSCF5742_zps8b39dc5e.jpg

I finished up a bunch of cases to this point before moving over to cut the length with the same tool bit. If I had a lathe DRO I would have done all the steps before removing the case.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Holescreek/Gunstuff/1907%20Winchester/DSCF5743_zps2bb16366.jpg

30 years ago I used to reload everything I shot but haven't done much reloading in the last 20 years. Luckily I kept all my equipment. I still need to fins some powder for these rounds, hopefully I'll be able to find it at the next show.

[John Allen]

These have the coolest loaders out there I wish there was still one that used a plunger cocker.

[MBTcustom]

Excellent! I see you know your way around the 3700lb magic wand.
.357 max? never would have thought of that. Great pictures too BTW.
I run a Jacobs collet chuck too on occasion.
Welcome to castboolits!

[Dutchman]

I'd like to have one of the WSL one day..

http://images46.fotki.com/v400/photos/2/28344/3886627/c042-vi.jpg

http://images46.fotki.com/v400/photos/2/28344/3886627/c043-vi.jpg

[Holescreek]

This is the first time I've ever had to modify brass to shoot a build, I think that's why I was attracted to this gun. I've spent hours reading every thread I could find on reloading the .351SL and was lucky enough that others did all the pioneer work to figure it out. I paid $80 for the rusty rifle parts with no magazine or wood and was able to restore it to shooting condition only to discover that I couldn't buy ammo because the price has been driven sky high. Last box I found for sale was $2.70/rd.

I'm a big fan of the Jacobs rubberflex chuck since I first used one in 1981. I probably use it for 75% of the stuff I make now.

[firefly1957]

Holescreek That is the same way i came to this forum though my Winchester 1907. Welcome to castboolits. I will give you the standard warnings when you get 30 days and i think 30 posts "The Pit" will open up when it does if you need blood pressure medicine take it before entering "Religion and Politics" and no eating or drinking while in "Humor and Off Topic" as we do not clean screens or keyboards! Enjoy your 1907 i really like mine but do not use it as much as i should it is a good shooting gun. Do you know you can size .357 pistol bullets down for use in it?

[Holescreek]

I was originally thinking of making a sizing die to squeeze the .357 rounds down to .352 but after finding the premade ones I decided to get the rifle shooting first before putting anymore time in it. If it turns out to be fun, I'll put more effort in.

Here was the rifle as received:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Holescreek/Gunstuff/1907%20Winchester/DSCF5466.jpg

Now:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Holescreek/Gunstuff/1907%20Winchester/DSCF5730_zps15a8cd4b.jpg

All I have left to do on the rifle is find/buy/make a rear sight.

[firefly1957]

You did a great job on it looks like the rifle was well abused before you. Congratulations on saving a piece of history.

[PB234]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/351_WSL_Winchester_Self_Loading_Ammunition_it-158003.aspx?CAT=4445

[Holescreek]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/351_WSL_Winchester_Self_Loading_Ammunition_it-158003.aspx?CAT=4445

" Temporarily Unavailable - Back-Orders OK" It's had that on the page for a long time.

[partsman57]

I too am luck enough to own one, also have a brand new barrel for it if I ever need it.
Have not seen many that came with two barrels.
Here is a small sample of some of my factory ammo, and also some of my 180Gr Bullets I pick up when I can.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/partsman/Rifle/100_2699_zpse7075afa.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/partsman/media/Rifle/100_2699_zpse7075afa.jpg.html)

[firefly1957]

That ammo may be worth more then the gun!

[beagle]

.357 Mag dies worked well for loading my .351. You have to get a custom .352" sizer made. I looked but never found one.

No reason one of these custom mould makers couldn't make one.

With the .351, it's a struggle all the way but they're interesting to shoot. Mine's an old prison gun but shoots pretty fair. Kicks more than it should for a gin that heavy and ejects cases about 15 feet but it's a fun gun./beagle

[partsman57]

I had hoped to shoot mine today, but never got out to the range.
Too many demands around the house.
Hope next week to get out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/partsman/100_1351-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/partsman/media/100_1351-1.jpg.html)

[firefly1957]

On using .357 dies for loading instead of using the expander try the Lee universal flaring die it works . For bullets i have a sizer to take .357 bullet down to .351 i think you can order a Lee push though sizing die for this make sure to lube them well Lanolin works well.

[Holescreek]

I bought a used Lee .351WSL deluxe die set off Ebay before I started working on the restoration so have no experience with using the .357 dies. The .357 max cases ran through the .351 sizer seemingly without touching the walls before firing but after test firing a round it was a real bear getting it resized for reloading. I tried using Unique initially but this gun would not eject any of the loads specified in the manuals. After a couple of weeks of half hearted searching I finally scored a pound of IMR4227 within reasonable driving distance and loaded a few cases with 19.5 grains. I tested three of them in my bullet trap and all ejected well. So well in fact that I've already lost one of the cases inside the shop. I need to set aside some time to shoot the rifle properly at the range but I think first I need to make some kind of brass catcher.

[firefly1957]

I have heard a couple people say the faster powders would not allow case ejection in their Mod. 1907's i had a load worked up with AL-8 that worked fine in cold weather but would not eject when it warmed up?

[partsman57]

Sadly all these years later and I have yet to try my loads, have bought new dies, lots of new jamison brass, IMR4227 powder and just recently bought some cast bullets from a place called Rusty woods, he is up here in Canada.
Having had a heart attack one year, then a head on collision the next I have not even rejoined the rifle range.
One day I will get to it, oh and I bought through Wolff springs a new recoil spring for the 1907 also and a new buffer from Numrich as mine was so worn I did not know it had a buffer.

[bullet maker 57]

Those springs can be a bear to replace.

[enfield]

A buddy of mine has a 35WSL and a 401WSL , I've made him brass for both but the 401 is giving him trouble getting a load that cycles. the 35 is easy, 38 special type loads cycle through it fine. I wish there was some more load data besides the 4227 to try. hope you get it working for you.

[richhodg66]

I killed two deer with my cast loads in a 1907 Winchester last Fall. Neat rifles and good for that purpose. I used .357 magnum dies for hat, but have since picked up a set of RCBS dies for the .351. I used 2400 because I had some.

The bullets are another issue with that weird undersized bullet. I found a mold that was originally designed for the .35 WSL and it had a round flat nose. I used some plain based gas checks on them, but they still don't hold on very well as they are designed for .358 diameter bullets. I've since gotten a mold for the .348 Winchester that casts a nominal 180 grain bullet and has a nice meplat. If it casts to .352, it should work well, just haven't cast with it yet.

[firefly1957]

The old molds that are designed for the 351 use .348 gas check.
Being 4 years since this post was last brought to light and without going though the previous 130 posts I will add some things i have discovered on the 351 WSL in the last few years . I have started using 5.56/.223 brass in bottom loads i just trim it to length and load it with 357 dies ,the case neck is belled without running a sizer in it as for me that causes low case neck tension. I have a push though die that with one pass sizes either jacketed or cast bullets from .357-.352 . It is difficult to get the right part of the press stroke set to six jacketed bullets it must be the very top of the stroke where the most force is available. I think Lee would make a .351 sizer for not to much . The channalure is in the wrong place if you size 357 bullets as the bullet seats shallow only .2" a LEE .357 mag. factory Crimp die DOES A GREAT JOB locking the bullet in place . (with my rimless versions this does not seam to matter as far as headspace goes i suspect the extractor holds the case for proper ignition)
I have shot RESIZED 357 magnum bullets as light as 110 grains using 357 magnum loads normally cycle my action at the upper end of book loads , max. pressure for the 351 WSL 48,200 C.U.P. well above 357 magnum loads and the larger case should reduce the pressure some as well compared to 357 magnum cases using same load data.

[Battis]

I use .38 Special brass for the .35 WSL, and .357 Mag brass for the .351. I don't cut extractor grooves. I reduce the rims with a drill press and file.
I use .38/.357 dies. For neck tension I use a .223 sizing die.
.35 = 12 grs IMR4227
.351 = 17 grs IMR4227.
I have a mold that cast .352" bullets. Accurate Molds #35-175A or #35-175AG
Works perfectly.
I replaced the springs in each (Wolff Springs) and the buffers.

I also have a .32 WSL and a .401 WSL. They're easier to reload for than the other two.

193302

[firefly1957]

I did a couple of short 351 wsl cases by simply turning the rim of a 357 magnum down they shot and ejected well but ended up stuck in the sizing die. I also jammed up the magazine badly will the shorter round when the top case got pushed behind a lower case and locked the top case in .
Battis have you looked at 7.62X39 & 5.5X39 case heads they look very close to what is needed if a guy could find a supply or boxer primed brass cheaply .

[Battis]

I tried the 7.62x39 brass but it didn't work out so well. I bought a set of Lee .351 WSL dies on ebay but they didn't work with the 38/357 brass. I've had great luck with the 38/357 dies - the .223 die is the key to neck tension. The amounts of IMR4227 that I listed are slightly compressed in the 35 & 351, and hold the bullet in place (a good crimp is needed), and work the action smoothly. New springs and buffers are usually needed. Wolff Springs does not sell the springs for the 32 & 401 but I still replaced the buffers.
For the 32WSL I use 32-20 brass, and for the 401 I use 414 Mag brass.
None of the brass I use has ejector grooves and they all work great.
Winchester also made a .22 WSL, and I had the chance to buy one, but I passed.
I call the .401 The Big Ouch. It has some recoil.
Great guns.

[richhodg66]

Kinda off topic, I don't watch a lot of TV but one of the series AMC is introducing looks to be a 1930s crime drama and I caught a split second a couple of times when I looked up to see someone shooting a 1907 Winchester. Wish I could remember the name of the show. Like I said, there are darn few program I bother to catch on a regular basis, but I might watch it a few times to see it.

These rifles are the epitome of old school cool.

[Battis]

Check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFXlRzNnGk

[richhodg66]

Cool. This is the trailer for the series I mentioned;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBwJLfJcOfA

[Battis]

Looks pretty good. James Bond with a WSL. I like that extended magazine. I found an extra .351 mag in a small gunshop last fall (and some vintage rounds) but I've never seen the extended mag.
My .32WSL came with 75 original rounds. They have more punch than the ones I reload.

[richhodg66]

You can get ten shot mags that are currently made for them.

[fiftyfivechvyman]

Any one familiar on swapping barrels from one receiver to another.
Thanks Chris

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[partsman57]

I am now using in my .401 7.62x39 brass, 414 super mag brass along with 6.5 grendel basic brass, plus i have 401 of new manufacture,all work, am using 27 and 28 grain IMR4227 powder and all function.
The 351 i am using 360 dan wesson trimmed to length and sized, along with some jamison/captech brass with proper headstamp.
So far all good, using 18 grains IMR4227, fun rifles to shoot.

[firefly1957]

I have not trimmed them yet but the new .350 Legend looks perfect for making a rimless case for the .351 has anyone tried them yet?

I had been using 5,6/.223 cases the web is .002 " narrow but they work well no signs of failure.

I would call the .350 Legend the great grandson of the old .351 Winchester even went with a smaller "38" bullet at .355" .

[M-Tecs]

I would call the .350 Legend the great grandson of the old .351 Winchester even went with a smaller "38" bullet at .355" .

Personally is wish they went with the .358 diameter. If they had I would own one.

[gwpercle]

Very Nice !
It doesn't look good ... It Looks AWESOME !
From your dad and a bit of a historical firearm ... It IS Awesome !

I have been to the site where Bonnie and Clyde were " Captured" ... it doesn't appear to have changed since 1934 ...still in the middle of nowhere and still no buildings to be seen ...just a lonely desolate road with that eerie looking stone monument that appears to be all shot up ... with maybe 351 Winchester Self Loading and other law enforcement bullets .
The place gives me a strange feeling .
Gary

[firefly1957]

The .350 Legend S.A.M.M.I. has a .358 bore size for Secs. so a person needs to actually slug the bore to see what your gun actually is some guns very between .355 - .358 . but the case needs to have the inside reamed with some brands of brass .

Oddly firing .358 in a .355 bore really does not raise pressures as much as people think and shooting .355 bullets in a .357 bore often shoots quite well .

[firefly1957]

Yesterday I trimmed some .350 legend cases to 1.376" they as fired from a .350 Legend would not chamber the last little bit , running them into a .38/357 mag . carbide die let them chamber fine . It also stretched them .015" so they needed to be trimmed again . I pushed some 158 grain .357" J-bullets though a .351" sizer and loaded them with just under book maximum for the bullet in .357 loading data with 2400 powder and a small rifle primer. The load shot accurately and cycled well from my Model 1907 .
I recently bought a Harbor Freight one ton arbor press* I really like using it to size bullets better then my reloading press less overall effort . I have made a couple dies for this use but a standard die with the threaded ring on it can be place upside down in the prober size opening . Unlike a reloading press a arbor press has the same leverage at all points so there is not a sweet spot at the top of the stoke .

* I tried to by a larger American made press but they were out of stock everywhere!

[Battis]

Do you have a chronograph? I'd be curious. For comparison, using .357 Mag brass and a .352" bullet, velocity was 1400 – 1600 fps .
A “vintage" factory round measured 1879 fps.

[firefly1957]

Battis I do have a chronograph I have not ran any loads from my Model 1907 over it yet . I can tell you from what the bullet did to a old steel wheel it far outperforms the same bullet at max load in 6.5 inch 357 magnum revolver .
My next loads will be with IMR-4227 I also want to do a bit of capacity measurements compared to 357 - 44 B&D and possibly use AA-1680 . I use the powder in the 357-44 B&D and it gives low pressure with pretty good velocity and excellent accuracy .
I do plan on doing some timing of loads as soon as I take the gun apart and check the buffer .
I have some old and older ammo (Nickle copper jacket with copper primers) The few I fired really had a lot of recoil and sent cases a long way from the gun .
I also want to shoot up the 30 some hunting loads I loaded in the mid 1990's That load was IMR-4227 under a Sierra 170 gr. JHC it was too destructive on deer but does punch though broadside .

[Battis]

You mentioned checking the buffers. It was probably mentioned already, but have you changed the recoil spring?

[firefly1957]

I have not, the spring is pretty strong much stronger and it would be awful hard to open it takes a bit of force now .
I have wondered about that because in one of my old books it mentions that some guns need maximum load to cycle I have not found that at all and even got 110 gr. bullets to cycle though my guess is they were moving pretty fast... The load I used yesterday was 14 grains 2400 under a 158 grain bullet and the cases dropped right next to me . (still lost one)

[Battis]

Changing the buffers is a good idea to protect the receiver.
I use 17 grs IMR4227 with a 175 gr cast bullet (.352). The cases eject far and wide.

[firefly1957]

Yes I just have not got around to it I go though little bursts of shooting the gun I try to deer hunt with it every ten year anniversary of it being made (1916). I took a doe with it in 1996 & 2006 saw no deer in 2006 and did not take it out in 2016 except one day because of my eyes not getting along with iron sights well!
I used 17.5 grains of IMR-4227 under the size to .352 170 Gr JHC shell casings did not go very far .
I took the sizer out and found it is now making bullets at .353 " so I made a new one that works in a Arbor press (1 ton) The old one will still be used on cast bullets .
A person recently opened a page on the old guns on facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/287455216543486 Not to many people yet .

[firefly1957]

I have taken my Model 1907 apart Is there a set way to measure spring strength?

My buffer is toast it was dry shrunk and cracked none are available now . It looks a bit like leather BUT smells like rubber when burning a small piece.

In the middle of the night I wondered if the material from a common rubber hammer could be used?

Does anyone know the proper height of the buffer or what the gap should be with a good buffer in place?

[Battis]

Check this site. There's good info but it does take time for responses:
https://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/

Check out this thread on that forum. Is that poster on this forum?
https://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/thread/384/recoil-buffer-replacement

When you find a suitable material to use, I'll post some pics and measurements of my rifle.

It's worth it to replace the spring:

https://www.gunsprings.com/WINCHESTER/07/cID2/mID120/dID324

[LaPoint]

292274292275

I was cleaning parts of my reloading room that haven't been touched in 20+ years and came across some ammo and magazines for my grandfather's Win Mdl 10 in 401WSL. I believe the last time it was fired was about 1981. I am going to dig it our and shoot it again in the next couple of weeks. I disassembled one round. It looks like 22.7 grns?

[firefly1957]

La Point A few are shooting the model 1910 making cases out of brass 7.62X39 cases .

Battis I had read the one thread the other has a lot more to go though It sounds like the washer sit level with the top of the cup with a new buffer . I took that measurement earlier wrote it down in my workshop .
I am going to cut up a rubber hammer see how it does like everything else parts are short to not existing right now !

[Battis]

.401 WSL:
I use 414 Super Mag brass cut to length (1.495"). I do not cut an extractor groove.
Reduce the head diameter (.460") with a drill press and file
I use Accurate Mold #41-208L (206 gr bullets)
Or Western Bullets 250-gr. lead plain base #410426
IMR 4227: 22 grs minimum
UNIQUE – 10, 11, & 12 grs all worked.
LARGE RIFLE PRIMERS
Check the buffers.

I figured out the correct size for the .401 WSL buffers from this pic (Cody, WY museum).
The cover of the cup actually sits slightly above the cup. I'll look at my .351 WSL and check.
But, basically, anything that buffers the recoil will be better than nothing.

[firefly1957]

Thank you for the picture Battis I was thinking the same about the buffer height was going to fit the bolt back in and look at were things are in relation to getting it back together .
I did forget to mention one thing the rails of the bolt are a very tight fit over the cup that hold the buffer is that normal ? It kind of threw me in disassemble.
My gun's receiver is just filled with what looks like gun slick as lube I am wondering if I should reuse it or go with a newer grease after I clean it up.

[Battis]

I'd remove that old grease. I don't use grease in mine.
Assembling the bolt without the recoil spring to see how it goes together makes sense. I'll look at mine to refresh my fading memory. Some of my WSLs have a buffer cup, some don't.
Have you ever reassembled the buffers and recoil spring in a WSL?

Here's the full pic of the .401 in the museum.

[firefly1957]

This is a first I got it down a couple hiccups It was the buffer washer the bolt was hanging up on not the buffer cup as I thought .
I used a rubber hammer to make the buffer I would not use the same method again I trimmed .4" of the hammer then used a 8 mm and 16 MM gasket /washer punch to pound though the material it is slightly tapered as a result but does fit well at larger end .
I did make a buffer a bit long at .4" so there is a gap between the washer and cup. Taking measurements I would guess a buffer of .8" might even work! Looking it over well the bolt is still real close to rear of receiver ... I found a spanner wrench in my grandfathers tools that worked okay on barrel nut .
I did inspect everything no sign or cracks the old grease in threads and gave me fits tearing down . I softened it with SeaFoam Deep Creep then used a bit of Lucas red grease ,what I had on hand and I thought would be good . Same in the receiver after I shoot a bit I will take it back apart to check buffer .
The tip on a 5/15 steel rod with pin to hold spring was a life saver only ended up with to minor cuts both from the springs recoil and the operating rod.

I fired six shots 160 grain spear short jacket plinking rounds in a trimmed 5.56 case and three of my mid 1900's hunting loads a 170 grain JHC with 17.5 grains of IMR - 4227 under it . The plinker cases dropped right next to me easy to find as it is snowing hard with about 3 inches down recoil was mild . The 170 load kicked noticeably more no sharp slap as in the past . The cases hit the ground 10 feet away and skidded a foot under the snow these are original .351 cases it was good to find them! Both loads shot same sight setting I got the sight back in same place by luck . The 170 grain were shot offhand into a steel tractor wheel on it's side 2 1/2" 35 yard offhand group bullets passed though bot sides of the wheel .
I did take some pictures have not down loaded them yet.

[Battis]

Did you use a paperclip (or whatever) through the post behind the buffers to hold everything in place while you removed the steel rod and replaced it with the bolt guide rod? I'm thinking that the original factory assemblers back in the day had special tools and jigs to help them set that spring. The hole in that post seems to be part of the original procedure.

[firefly1957]

No I left the spring fully compressed by place a wood block in the bolt opening slid the rod out and the bolt spring guide rod .
Once I had the spring compressed and the buffer in place with the bolt closed I was able to place the buffer washer with a pair of forceps.
The washer was put in bottom slot sideways with flat down to barrel then bolt moved all the way to the rear and spring tension let back on moving the bolt forward the pin was removed and the rod pushed all the way in buffer so it would be in place under pressure . Bolt was then fully opened and blocked open with wood block . Assembly rod removed and guide rod put back it and tightened . All of the threads had to be cleaned of the hard oil/grease whatever was in them around the buffer was a lot of rubber compound stuck to bolt and barrel it was reddish color .
Above I said I thought the buffer could be as long as .8" I did not look at where the bolt relation was to the rear of the magazine for that statement as the rear of the receiver was removed and I am not sure at what point a new round is picked up from the magazine when bolt goes forward.

I am not going to try to cut another buffer in the same way with a punch if I make another a spinning cutter will be the way to go . I could also use a few thousand more on the outside for a firmer hold in the cup .

I am going to do some shooting pull the forearm and decide how this buffer made from a rubber hammer is doing .
The pin I used to retain the spring was a bit to long and needed to be shortened , it was a hardened steel needed bearing from a large truck ujoint, polished very smooth so easy to remove .

[Battis]

I had to use two buffers to fit the .401 properly, each buffer cut equally so I wouldn't have one thick and one thin. As long as the recoil is "buffered" by something, it should be fine.

[firefly1957]

I was wondering about adding a "sorbathane" buffer to the old one but when I saw how bad it was forgot that .
Besides when I cut those thin washers from the material if got a bit gooey .

I had some pads of "sorbathane" from old work gloves it filled the palm area was supposed to help with vibration from air impact wrenches at work . They ended up going to other means like electric motors with reaction bars or on support stands .

[firefly1957]

I did some more shooting and chronographed the loads today .

All loads except 170 grains I loaded in mid 1990's were at bottom end of load density and had soot on cases a few that went under 1200 f/s did not function the gun . All bullets sized to .352 or .351" all primers CCI 400
.223 case trimmed load unknown cast gas checked 162 gr semi wadcutter 1830 f/s same load Speer 160 gr. bullet 1540 to 1750 . A couple in the 1100 f/s range I suspect case contamination as this load sat since about 2005 .

Speer 158 grain Jacketed sized to .351 loaded in trimmed .350 Legend cases .
14 grains 2400 1480 f/s .
15 grains IMR-4227 1200-1428 f/s pressure to low did cycle the action .

My deer load loaded in mid 1990's in .351 cases Sierra 170 grain JHC sized at .352" .
IMR-4227 17.5 gr. 1524-1550 f/s - I was expecting more I think IF I seat the bullet deeper velocity would go up? This load is very destructive on deer but on the weak side for deer! The load is also very accurate and all the loads fired here were at same general point of aim at 25 yards .
I have some more loads to shoot up before I look at the buffer again to see how it is working.

[Battis]

I bought and fixed up a 1907 .351 a few years ago (sold it last year). On the stock someone had cut 5 notches. I'm hoping they were deer.
Have you tried .357 Mag brass?

[firefly1957]

I have tried .357 mag brass they are way to short for the magazine and a case on top got over the lower case and the rims locked together what a pain that was to clear . The charges did cycle the action with the cases I used them both as is and with a bit of a groove cut and rim turned down . That was done on a drill press as I did not have a mini lathe yet at the time . Doing that trimming caused me some problems the cases no longer fit in either 357 mag or .351 shell holder and I could not size them , I did not cut the groove larger for worry of making case web unsafe to hold pressure .

Funny thing somewhere in this forum when I suggested just trimming 5.56 cases I was told that a rimless straight walled case of suck power would never work.
I wonder if those people are looking at the now very popular .350 Legend and saying the same? I did mention the .450 bushmaster back them and 30 carbine since then I have seen a number of VERY accurate guns in bolt actions and AR platforms in the .450 BM at my club when I help with sight in days .

[Battis]

Interesting. I trim the rims on .357 mag brass down to .408" with a drill press and file (.404” to .411” worked). I do not cut an extractor groove. I'm still able to use the .357 mag shell holder. It's worked on two different .351s. I tried the longer .357 Max brass but, in each gun, the case mouths got beat up when extracting. But, hey, whatever works.

[firefly1957]

I can see that , in my case the rim just pulled off in resizing the case . I really like going rimless for the round may sit on it a while before working on it some more . Next step with the rimless cases is to seat the bullet deeper and see what happens . I also need to check case capacity against 357 Magnum cases one source says they are the same ?

[Battis]

I size the case with a 38/357 die, then for neck tension I use a 9mm crimp die the length of where the bullet will seat. I load 17 grs IMR4227, which is compressible, then seat with a 38/357 die. Like I said, there's no extractor groove.
I use the same technique (less powder) with the .35 wsl (.38 SP case).

[firefly1957]

I just sent some 180 grain bullets sized to .351 to a guy in Minnesota to use in a .35 WSL . He is trimming .223 cases to shoot with .
I have RCBS 351 dies but find the .357 Mag dies work best I crimp bullets with Lee .357 factory crimp Die .

I cut a die from 1" diameter steel rod to use in a 1 ton arbor press to size jacketed .357" bullets to .351 " less effort then reloading press !

[Sprue]

Hello people. It's been years since I've revisited this site, so I thought I would say hello to all, and that I'm still kicking. I got away from shooting/reloading many moons ago. I haven't even been to my shooting range in at least 5 years but I've always kept my dues current. When or if I start reloading again, I'll have to start from scratch. But it shouldn't be too much of a re-learning curve as I have many folders of notes. As for the .351 I know is that I should have a mold, both cast and jacketed boolits. My best to youins and yours

[firefly1957]

I have been working more with my Model 1907 lately right now it sits doing coyote duty with some resized 140 grain FTX bullets at 2150 f/s .
If you are on facebook you may look at this group : https://www.facebook.com/groups/287455216543486