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View Full Version : Effect of Lube on Powder



nonferrous
07-16-2009, 12:24 PM
How will residual lube, LLA or JPW, left on the boolit base affect the performance of powder? I would imagine that short term would be no problem, however, would long term storage cause more FTF's than with boolits that have the base's cleaned off dry?
Thanks

44man
07-16-2009, 12:37 PM
Depends on the powder charge and amount of lube. 2 gr of Bullseye might have some ruined if in contact with the lube. Heat will melt some lubes. But normally there is just a skin of lube and it might ruin a few tenths of a gr. It sure will not melt into a whole powder charge.

Recluse
07-16-2009, 12:45 PM
I have reloads I did over twenty years ago, stored boolit down with the powder resting on the base, that still fire with the same accuracy today they did twenty years ago. No misfires due to powder. There is the occasional primer that didn't get seated properly--but that's not a lube or powder issue.

I have loads with boolits lubed with LLA/JPW that have been sitting for over four years, boolit down, that fire today no differently than they did originally.

I also use a variety of powders ranging from very fine ball/spherical to flake to extruded. Not one powder has been affected adversely by lube.

:coffee:

pdawg_shooter
07-16-2009, 12:51 PM
What effect?

nonferrous
07-16-2009, 01:27 PM
Effect, (the result intended, consequence, result). Affect, (to produce an effect or change in).

I guess.

nonferrous
07-16-2009, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the reinforcement, I have a lot of reloads that have been around a long time and they still perform. However, in loading some target .38 special, when I look at the small amount of powder, (3 gr's of Clays) I had to wonder how it would react to the lube. The last ones I loaded were with Unique and it's a lot more powder.
Thanks

AZ-Stew
07-16-2009, 08:30 PM
I have a paper towel on my bench when I lube/size. As each boolit comes out of the sizer, I swipe the base across the PT before placing the boolit in line to be loaded. No lube, no problem. And it doesn't take enough time to worry about.

Regards,

Stew

KYCaster
07-16-2009, 08:43 PM
Many years ago I had some .45ACP's loaded with W231 powder and 230RN lubed with Rooster Red Zambini. I left about 300 rounds in the cab of the truck on a hot day and the lube melted out of them.

I had squibs, hang fires and failures to fire. I pulled some and found gobs of powder saturated with lube. I threw the remainder in the trash.

I loaded some more and put them boolit down and left them in the truck to see what would happen. The lube melted out and glued them into the trays.

No more Rooster Red for me. I have since found that lots of lubes will become very soft but will not become runny liquid till well over 150 deg.

I haven't had any more problems, but I'm more careful about how I store loaded ammo.

Jerry

nonferrous
07-16-2009, 10:09 PM
I think you are right about cleaning the bases, it really would not take any time to speak of.

winelover
07-17-2009, 09:21 AM
I have a paper towel on my bench when I lube/size. As each boolit comes out of the sizer, I swipe the base across the PT before placing the boolit in line to be loaded. No lube, no problem. And it doesn't take enough time to worry about.

Regards,

Stew

I've been doing the exact same thing Stew does for years with no problems of contaminated powder.

Winelover

44man
07-17-2009, 09:32 AM
Many years ago I had some .45ACP's loaded with W231 powder and 230RN lubed with Rooster Red Zambini. I left about 300 rounds in the cab of the truck on a hot day and the lube melted out of them.

I had squibs, hang fires and failures to fire. I pulled some and found gobs of powder saturated with lube. I threw the remainder in the trash.

I loaded some more and put them boolit down and left them in the truck to see what would happen. The lube melted out and glued them into the trays.

No more Rooster Red for me. I have since found that lots of lubes will become very soft but will not become runny liquid till well over 150 deg.

I haven't had any more problems, but I'm more careful about how I store loaded ammo.

Jerry
That is a different story. You lost all of the lube from the grooves into the powder. You do not have the case tension with the .45ACP on the boolit to prevent lube leaks.

Dale53
07-17-2009, 11:18 AM
Years ago, I attended a week at the Ray Chapman Academy in Columbia, Missouri. I had my ammo in a GI can. it was well over 100 degrees the whole dern week (as I remember, 106 degrees). The sky was cloudless and the range was white crushed limestone. It was pretty much being like being on a spit over a fire. I, not thinking, left my ammo can (original OD color) sit in the sun not over twenty minutes. My .45 ACP ammo was loaded with my cast bullets (Saeco and H&G #68's) lubed with NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax. In spite of the short exposure, the high heat melted the lube and caused numerous mis-fires. I was not the only one to be affected.

I did get a lot of "gun clearing exercise":cry:...

I now use Lars White Label Carnauba Red and am happy for it's higher melting point (without losing ANY accuracy).

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

243winxb
07-17-2009, 11:36 AM
This was posted in a midwayusa catalog. Click for a larger photo of melting temeratures. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMG_3315.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/IMG_3315.jpg)

Dale53
07-17-2009, 01:41 PM
Well, I don't want to step on anyone else's figures. However, the 190 degrees for Javelina is not at all in line with my experience. 130 degrees is more inline with my experience. I have made several gallons of NRA 50/50 and have also used a couple of CASES of Javelina 50/50. Javelina is what I was using when I had my unfortunate experiences.

Make no mistake. Javelina 50/50 is a good lube and other than that one time of extreme heat, I had no problems with it. I consider it no better and cerainly no worse than any other NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube.

It is easy enough to check the melting temperature of lubes. Just set a stick on a cookie sheet in an oven along with an accurate thermometer and check it. I have....

Dale53

KYCaster
07-17-2009, 09:54 PM
That is a different story. You lost all of the lube from the grooves into the powder. You do not have the case tension with the .45ACP on the boolit to prevent lube leaks.


I don't think case tension had a lot to do with it. With the ammo stored boolit down, the lube leaked through the taper crimp.

At the time I was trying lots of different lubes, looking for something suitable for commercial boolits. The big problem with the Rooster Red was the lack of a "plastic" stage. It would go from too hard to work in the Star sizer to too runny with a very small change in temperature. The C-H heater base that I was using had about a 15* temp swing as it cycled on and off so the lube wouldn't flow at the low point and would squirt everywhere at the high point.

I found other lubes that performed just as well or better than the Zambini for lubing quality, but without the temp sensitivity. I finally settled on Thompson's Blue Angel and I've been using it for more than fifteen years with very few complaints.

Jerry

Lloyd Smale
07-18-2009, 06:17 AM
i dont use tumble lube alox much but occasionaly load up a bunch of 38s useing the lee 105 swc tumble lubed. they shoot well in one of my 15s unsized and lubed like that. A couple years ago i had two coffee cans full of them that had been sitting in the barn for a little over a year. Took a can out to shoot one day and about a 1/4 were duds. I pulled a few of the bullets on the duds and there was just a hard ball of powder in them. I dont use allox anymore for long term storage.

44man
07-18-2009, 08:06 AM
I don't think case tension had a lot to do with it. With the ammo stored boolit down, the lube leaked through the taper crimp.

At the time I was trying lots of different lubes, looking for something suitable for commercial boolits. The big problem with the Rooster Red was the lack of a "plastic" stage. It would go from too hard to work in the Star sizer to too runny with a very small change in temperature. The C-H heater base that I was using had about a 15* temp swing as it cycled on and off so the lube wouldn't flow at the low point and would squirt everywhere at the high point.

I found other lubes that performed just as well or better than the Zambini for lubing quality, but without the temp sensitivity. I finally settled on Thompson's Blue Angel and I've been using it for more than fifteen years with very few complaints.

Jerry
Holy smokes, are you sure Kroil wasn't used for color? :mrgreen:
I haven't had any problems with Felix. My BPCR books claim soap raises the melting point. I have made some lubes that burn before they will melt. No way to pan lube with them.
Then again I have different case tension for revolvers where the GG's can be seen on the brass. I can't get a better lock on the lube.

KYCaster
07-18-2009, 09:37 AM
Holy smokes, are you sure Kroil wasn't used for color? :mrgreen:



It looked more like Ed's Red. :confused:

Jerry

243winxb
07-18-2009, 11:33 AM
Well, I don't want to step on anyone else's figures. However, the 190 degrees for Javelina is not at all in line with my experience. I wonder if 50/50 has been upgraded to a higher melting point. I seem to remember a old company, Tamarack , i think, listing a newer high temp lube , but still 50/50.? Only way to know is test it i guess or keep your ammo in a cooler, no ice please.

technetium-99m
07-19-2009, 10:34 AM
I use 80/20 beeswax/paraffin on my pistol boolits loaded over Solo1000. They get left in the sun when I'm at the range or at a match. Not even the hottest Oklahoma weather has caused the lube to melt and run out, and I still make power factor easily. I haven't noticed any real changes in velocity, but I haven't tried freezing conditions yet.

nonferrous
07-19-2009, 04:07 PM
It would seem then, that assuming they do the lube job that is needed, JPW or LLA would be preferable, due to the somewhat lower quantity of lube that is on the boolit.

nonferrous
07-19-2009, 05:59 PM
It would seem then, that assuming they do the lube job that is needed, JPW or LLA would be preferable, due to the somewhat lower quantity of lube that is on the boolit.

44man
07-19-2009, 06:56 PM
It would seem then, that assuming they do the lube job that is needed, JPW or LLA would be preferable, due to the somewhat lower quantity of lube that is on the boolit.
Not really, the stuff leads my bore and you still need lube to the muzzle.