original .45-70 small game cartridges

[w30wcf]

Beagle originally posted his interest in this area. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57058

Here is a pic of some early .45-70 small game cartridges also used for target shooting at short range.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45-70shortrangectgsjpg.jpg

Recently I had a chance to test some .45-70 small game loads with smokeless powder in my Marlin w/ 22" barrel:

160 gr. bullet (converted r.b. mold)
> 5.0 Bullseye* / Fed 150------------646 f.p.s.
> 8.0 Trail Boss / Rem 9 1/2--------- 882 f.p.s.
> 8.0 Unique / Fed 150--------------- 842 f.p.s.
> 8.0 Unique*/ Fed 150-------------1109 f.p.s.

212 gr. bullet SWC (452260 opened to .459" diameter)
>8.0 Trail Boss / WLP------------------897 f.p.s.
>8.0 Trail Boss / WLP------------------966 f.p.s. powder positioned to the rear
>8.0 Unique* WLP--------------------1043 f.p.s.
>10.0 800X / WLP---------------------1107 f.p.s.
>10.0 800X / WLP---------------------1190 f.p.s. powder positioned to the rear

* over powder .005" thick paper disc (punched with .45 wad punch)

All of these loads shot extremely well producing 1" 5 shot groups and less @ 25 yards.:-D

w30wcf

[35remington]

Any vertical stringing with powder positioning front to rear? I'm guessing you tested that.

Ballard? Microgroove?

I'm sure those would have a lot of wallop.

Further comment on the paper disc, please. Historical basis?

[Jim]

I'm interested in how you converted a RB mold. Got pics?

[Harry O]

I have about 2/3 of a box of the early wooden bullet type shot cartridges. I got them in a trade. Most of them are still sound, but a couple of them have cracks in the wood from drying. From what I can see, the shot is larger than I would have thought. I was expecting very small shot, but it looks like #6 or larger. I have not shot any.

[w30wcf]

35 remington,
The cartridges with the paper disc over the charge shot groups that were a bit better, although not by much than the normal loading that were chambered from the magazine. THere is no historic connection to an over the powder paper disc that I know of. In dissecting some early U.M.C. .45 Colt cartridges (pre 1911) I did find evidence that they used a wad (3/16" thick) over 5 grs. of what appears to be bullseye, at least in some cartridge lots.

Jim,
I am out of town and won't be back until the 27th. I will post a pic then.
Imagine running a boring bar into the mold to produce a diameter of .460 for a depth of about .070". That will produce a rear driving band of that dimension.

Then, for the grease groove, going forward, cut a diameter of .40" until it runs out into the .457 dia.

Harry O,
Neat! Could you post a pic of the box?

w30wcf

[Harry O]

35 remington,
Harry O,
Neat! Could you post a pic of the box?

w30wcf

I'll have to dig them out and take their picture. Will post them when I get it done.

[Harry O]

Here is a picture. The box is in very poor shape. It says Union Metallic Cartridge on it. You can see that the one on the left has a cracked case. Several do. A couple have cracked wood, too.

[beagle]

Harry, any idea how the interior is set up? A sketch would be great if you can determine that.

These are what my original post was about./beagle

[Harry O]

There are spaces for 20 cartridges. Two rows of 10. The inside of the box has thin cardboard dividers: a center spine and a bunch of short cross pieces. I have not taken it apart (because the cardboard is so brittle), but I imagine that they are conventionally constructed with a couple of half-depth slots that slip into each other. The top is section is slightly larger than the bottom (horizontally and longitudinally) and slips over the bottom section. There was originally a piece of paper with printing that was pasted over the top and the sides to seal it. Vertically, the top is roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the height of the bottom piece. The "cardboard" is pretty thin. It is more like very heavy paper than cardboard.

I do not know what the interior of the cartridge looks like, because I have never taken one apart. I would imagine that the wood portion is long and there is little BP in the case.

I didn't mention it before, but the cartridge cases are dull silver in color. It is not any kind of nickel plating that I am familiar with. It does not look like paint, but could be. I am not sure what it is.

[35remington]

Harry, several guys here would be interested if you could pull the wooden boolit somehow and give the case interior a look see.

[Harry O]

Harry, several guys here would be interested if you could pull the wooden boolit somehow and give the case interior a look see.

Give me a day or two.

[Horace]

Wouldn`d they be tinned case? Dave "Horace" Williams

[Harry O]

It didn't take as long as I thought. Keep in mind that this is from a sample of ONE.

From left-rear to right-rear:

Left: The wooden case. It is 1.295" overall height and 0.743" from the base to the crimp. Above the crimp the outside diameter is 0.452". Below the crimp, it is 0.445" OD ( I am guessing it was also .452" OD before it was pressed into the case) and 0.365" ID. The machining of the inside includes a curved part at the nose. It does not just end flat inside.

Middle: The empty case. It may be tin on the outside. Other than that, it is a pretty conventional 45-70 case.

Right: One of the better loaded ones I have left.

From left-front to right-front:

Left: A measured 47.9gr of what looks like FFg black powder. I had to ream out some of the powder that was stuck in the bottom after separating the nose from the case, so I am thinking it was probably 48gr nominal. There was a fair amount of BP dust mixed in. I do not know if that was normal back then or if the grains were broken in 120 years or so of compression and banging around.

Middle: The disc propped up on the powder is approx 0.056" thick and 0.450" OD. The side next to the powder is coated with something yellow. The other side is conventional grayish cardboard. This was against the shot as evidenced by the round marks pressed into the cardboard.

Right: My guess was right about the shot. It runs from 0.109" to 0.112". No. 6. There is 75.2gr of shot, which is 36 shot pellets.


OK, thats the facts. However, I still have a question about this that I cannot answer. I put the shot back into the wooden cover. It did NOT fill it all the way. I also put the BP back into the 45-70 case. It went up above the line where the bottom of the wooden case had been. Between the two of them, it looked like the powder and the shot filled the case with a little compression. That is the way it should be. However.........

Where did the disc go? It does not look like it was pushed up INTO the wooden case. It looks like it was put on the bottom of the wooden case. It fits perfect there. It is not curled up on the edges like it was pressed into the wooden case. If that is where it was though, there would have had to be BP above and below it. That does not make much sense. I do not have an answer to that one. PS: the disc was wedged in the 45-70 case after the wooden part, the shot, and most of the BP came out. I had to pull it out with long-nose pliers.

[35remington]

Now, that's interesting.

I have to wonder - why such a miniscule charge of relatively coarse shot?

[beagle]

Thanks, Harry. That makes for an interesting load.

Does it look like the wooden portion was machine turned? (See any tool marks?)/beagle

[w30wcf]

Harry O,
THank you for the pics. I have dissected some different U.M.C. shot cartridges and in each case the shot filled the wooden container completely. The wad separated the b.p. from the bottom of the shot cup.

I am not home and won't be until the 26th so I will post some additional info at that time.

Beagle,
The wooden shot carriers were made on a lathe. I have a few that I got from a cartridge show that do show the turning marks.

w30wcf

[Harry O]

Yes, there are faint machining marks on the wooden portion. It was machined. The wood is fine grained, light in color. I am no wood person, but I am thinking boxwood rather than something more common like pine. BTW, the wooden portion weighs only 12gr.

It would make a lot more sense that the shot completely filled the wooden portion and the BP was totally underneath. I have shook a couple of the other ones and I don't hear shot sloshing around. However, I am certain that I did not loose any. I used a hammer-type inertia puller that is totally sealed so nothing could bounce out. I carefully opened it and poured the contents into a plastic container. I then very carefully separated the shot from the powder with tweezers. That was all that was in this one. The shot in this one, when poured back into the wooden portion filled it only about 2/3 or so full.

I believe that the BP could have been under the wooden portion (and its cardboard disc), however, that would require significant compression. That may be what happened and why there are so many fines mixed in.

[w30wcf]

Harry O,
Thank you for the update. In factory b.p. cartridges, the b.p. is compressed before the bullet / shot cup is seated. I envision that the powder would be compressed with the card wad and then inverted to seat over the shot cup.

If you weighed the complete cartridge with the lesser pellets, how does it compare to the weight of some of the other cartridges in the box?

w30wcf

[Harry O]

I think w30wcf has hit on something.

I did not weigh the entire cartridge that I dismantled before I took it apart. However, I just got done weighing every loaded foraging cartridge I have left. The weight swing from lightest to heaviest is startling. Here is the raw data:

398.2gr
402.3gr
421.3gr
422.3gr
427.6gr
429.0gr
429.6gr
431.4gr
432.2gr
432.5gr
434.1gr
434.6gr
436.0gr
440.4gr
456.5gr

Average of 428.5gr, but the maximum spread is 58.3gr. That would easily account for the rest of the space in the wooden piece for the rest of the shot. That is the problem with a sample size of one. I guess the above range is close enough for government work, though.

[w30wcf]

Harry O,
Thank you for the data. Yes, it certainly does appear there are some missing pellets in some of those cartridges.

I have a sectioned .38-40 U.M.C. shot cartridge that I will take a pic of when I return home next week. It will show the construction of the inside of the wooden shot carrier.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Here's a pic of a U.M.C. .38-40 Shot cartridge and a sectioned cartridge of the same which shows the detail of the inside of the wooden shot carrier. Interesting history.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/UMC38-40ShotCartridge.jpg

w30wcf

[peter nap]

Any idea what the wall thickness is for the wooden capsule?

[Harry O]

The wall thickness for the 45-70 wood capsule is pretty thin for wood. It is about 0.040" thick.

[w30wcf]

Harry O,
I pulled the wooden shot carrier from one of my .45-70 rounds and found that it was completely full of shot:

> cartridge weight - 437 grs.
> wooden carrier length - 1.30" wall thickness .04"
> shot size - #8
> shot weight w/ carrier - 201 grs. or a little less than 1/2 oz.

w30wcf

[Harry O]

w30wcf: The weight of yours is very close to the average on the 15 I weighed. Less than 10gr difference. However, there was a tremendous spread from the lightest to heaviest. The outside gave no clue on why the weight was so different. The length and wall thickness of the wooden condom is just about identical, too.

[w30wcf]

Harry,
Certainly seems like there is a variance in the amount of shot. Perhaps the factory worker putting those together was recovering from a hangover :roll:

THe other possibility might be that some are loaded with smokeless although doubtfull since they came from the same box........mixed rounds are a possibility though........
Do all the primers appear to be the same?

Here's an interesting pic of a box label from the book W.R.A. CO. Cartridges And THeir Variations. The front of the cartrtidge images above are various variations found on .45-70 W.R.A. CO. headstamped shot cartridges.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/WRACO45-70ShotCartridges.jpg

w30wcf

[Harry O]

All of the cartridges looked the same from the outside. Primers, wood condom, tinned cases. I checked them over after weighing and could not tell which were the heavy ones from the light ones from their visual appearance. Perhaps you are right: the worker was recovering from a hangover. How difficult is it to scoop out enough shot to completely fill a wood cup?

[w30wcf]

Harry O,
In answer to your question: "How difficult is it to scoop out enough shot to completely fill a wood cup?" I would say not at all, but perhaps one was knocked over since the worker's hands might not have been too steady and the spilled contents were not replaced(?).

I was going through my cartridges and found a few W.R.A. CO. headstamped .45-70 "Short Range" cartridges. I dissected one to see what Winchester loaded them with.

Looks like WINCHESTER wasn't concerned with chamber ringing with such a light load of powder and a 3/16 OPW(?).
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45-70shortrangecutawayjpg.jpg

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

I'm interested in how you converted a RB mold. Got pics?

Jim,
Here's a pic:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/457RBconversion.jpg

w30wcf