Gas Cutting, I *Think*

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I'm experiencing some pretty bad leading - at least I think it's bad, no real reference - in my .45acp 1911 5".

After 50 rounds or so, it looks like tinsel in there.

Mould is a 2 cavity Lee tumble lube, 230gn, LRN. Lead is wheel weights.

Fillout is excellent.

Bore is within specs, as are the bullets.

I'm thinking the alloy may just be too hard. I bumped the load from 4.7gns Bullseye to 5.2gns, and it seems to have helped a little. I'm running hot, but I have confidence in this pistol to handle these loads. Accuracy has increased as well, so I am assuming the rifling is being grabbed better.

Lube is the Alox, or whatever that stuff is that Lee sells to tumble the bullets.

What do you suppose should be my next step here, folks? I cannot afford a hardness tester.

Don't really mind the leading either, to be honest. What I really do mind is using a bore brush when I clean the thing.

I'm thinking I should scrounge up some pure lead and cut the alloy. I have no idea what velocity I'm running; it's been a no-go locating a chrono to beg or borrow.

What does the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual have to say about cast 230gn .45acp loads?

Thoughts?

Thank you,

Josh <><

[DLCTEX]

I have used the same boolit and lube in my 1911 without leading. When you say within specs, does that mean you slugged the bore and miked the boolits? Did you size the boolits, and if so did you lube after sizing? Are you water dropping from the mold? If so, that would be the first thing I would change. Are you crimping, if so, how? I prefer to cast any boolits that are shot under 1000 fps from 50/50- WW/lead. Give us all the imformation you can and we can help.

[Wayne Smith]

Josh, leading is usually caused by a lack of fit, second by over stressing your alloy. Most of the time you will be using loads that won't stress ww metal, but if you are shooting hot you may need to water drop to harden them a bit. I'd guess that you are running a boolit too small for your barrel. In the .45ACP you are more likely to need to soften hard alloy than harden soft alloy unless you got into some pure lead.

[yondering]

Hard to say exactly why you are getting leading, without knowing more. Are the boolits air cooled or water dropped? Air cooled should work fine, it does in my 1911.

From your comments, I'm assuming you've slugged the bore, and the boolits are .001" over bore dia.

I personally don't like Bullseye with the heavier boolits, only use it with 200gr or less in my 45. It's probably worth trying your load with Unique or Universal instead. 6.0gr of Universal has proven to be the most accurate load for me with 230gr lead in the 45.

Are your cases flared enough? If they are shaving lead going into the case, that could cause your problem.

How rough is the bore in your 1911? A patch with Flitz wrapped around your wire brush may help smooth things out a bit.

For removing the leading, get one of the copper "Chore Boy" scrubbing pads, open it up and cut a good long strip, and wrap that around your wire brush. Works like a charm, takes out the lead faster than anything else I've tried. (This is useful when experimenting with shotshells! :D )

[geargnasher]

TERMS, Yondering. You meant .001" over GROOVE diam, not BORE. I knew what you meant, but some new folks might get confused. (I know I did and still do sometimes).

Now Joshua, try what Yondering said. I've shot those boolits too (friend cast some for me to work up a load), with ww + 2% tin for bhn of around 13.5, using anywhere from 5.5 to 6.3 grains Universal (5.8 is optimum for MY gun as far as accuracy goes), lubed with LLA and unsized (cast at .4528") with a groove diameter of .4513" with zero leading.

I don't like bullseye either for anything heavier than 180gr. swc target loads. You need a slower powder for heavier boolits generally.

Gear

[yondering]

Gear, you are right about "groove" diameter. Thanks for the correction.

Also nice to hear someone else who doesn't like bullseye for heavy boolits. Too many cast boolit folks seem to use fast powder with heavy boolits, without really understanding what it's doing.

[HeavyMetal]

First a list of things to check:

"mike" the expander plug and see what diameter it is. If your boolits are .452 you want an expander that 'mike's" .450. It could be your boolits are being sized by the case as they seat if it's tighter than .450. Pull a boolit from a loaded round and see what they "mike" at!

Next are you using a Lee Factory Crimp die? These are real easy to adjust to "tight" on the crimp and bingo you get extra boolit sizing! If your using this die please double check the crimp setting!

Now how much LLA are you putting on these boolits? I have never been a fan of this stuff because it usually takes two coats and the maker claims it will do everything but cure Cancer!

If you've thinned your LLA with Mineral Sprits and used one coat I'll suggest double dipping!

I will "guess" that your WW alloy is clip on weights not stick on's. If they are clip on WW then the 13 BHN is a good number, as suggested by geargnasher, and the load should not be more than the alloy can handle. However if it's stick on WW your BHN will drop like a rock and is probablely in the area of 6 to 8 BHN. Your Bullseye load is not going to work with this alloy!

Your 5.2 Grains of Bullseye is making about 16000 PSI 13 BHN is a good alloy for that load! If your using stick on WW and the BHN is 6 to 8 your alloy will fail at 11,000 PSI or close to it!

The formula is BHN number times 1422 this will help you select a future alloy if we can't cure this problem.

If all these things are not an issue then I will also suggest that Bullseye is just to fast for this weight boolit. I will suggest you try Unique or another powder in that burning range.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Ok, first, I do water drop. If I understand correctly, this gives a BH of around 20 or so.

So no more water dropping? Ok, I'll sell the 300 or so I have already water dropped and lubed.

I'll need to find some pure lead to cut the rest with.

I did slug the bore at one point, but I honestly don't remember what it came out to be, and my notes on the subject have disappeared.

I really think it's one of two things: First, I am not used to shooting lead boolits, only jacketed, and so what I'm looking at may be normal. I might have one string of lead hanging around in there; the rest is just coating the barrel, not badly enough that it must be cleaned, but certainly worse than jacketed.

Second, the alloy may just be too hard.

I really like Bullseye, but if it's causing problems I'll end up switching. Just finding out I like faster powders is all. I have some AA#2 hanging around here as well - I don't like AA#5, burns too slowly and is dirty.

Oh, I'm using a taper crimp, Lee factory crimp die.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[DLCTEX]

Josh, does the FCD drag as you lower the ram of the press, in other words size the loaded round? if so you may be sizing the boolit smaller than the gun needs. The problem may be too much crimp causing a bulge in the case, or the boolit may be oversize. Use only as much crimp as is necessary to remove flare and if necessary hold the boolit. It may not be necessary to crimp at all. You could recast the boolits, the alox will burn off. I don't know what would happen to the alox if you heated them and allowed them to cool, but don't try it in your wife's oven! If you are getting slivers of lead rather than lead plating the bore, then you are cutting lead either as you load the boolit in the case or during crimping.

[geargnasher]

Hello,

Ok, first, I do water drop. If I understand correctly, this gives a BH of around 20 or so.
Please understand that at less than 1,000fps in a 1911-style .45ACP you do not want or need anything harder than bhn 15, which is considerably harder than most clip-on ww. You need the boolits to be soft enough to seal without having to drive them at insane pressures. Reasonably soft boolit+correct barrel/boolit fit+appropriate lube+slower powder= accurate, reliable ammo without leading problems. Save the water-dropping for .44 mag at 1,450+fps.
So no more water dropping? Ok, I'll sell the 300 or so I have already water dropped and lubed. Throw them back in the pot and recast. The lube makes ok flux

I'll need to find some pure lead to cut the rest with. I don't think that would help. The reason your boolits are so hard is the antimony is responding to the water quenching, not that straight ww alloy is too hard. In fact, ww + a little tin make fabulous .45 boolits when air quenched, in about 3 weeks they will be about 11-14 bh.

I did slug the bore at one point, but I honestly don't remember what it came out to be, and my notes on the subject have disappeared. Knowing your groove diameter exactly and boolit diameter exactly are of paramount importance to troubleshooting leading issues. Your post title was about "gas cutting", this is exactly what happens when boolits are to hard or are punched into the rifling too fast with too fast a powder and "skid" causing wide engraving marks that allow leakage.

I really think it's one of two things: First, I am not used to shooting lead boolits, only jacketed, and so what I'm looking at may be normal. I might have one string of lead hanging around in there; the rest is just coating the barrel, not badly enough that it must be cleaned, but certainly worse than jacketed. I don't consider "tinsel" in the bore to be normal or tolerated. Just slug your bore, check you boolit size, (send a slug sample and a boolit sample to me and I'll be glad to do it for you if you don't have the rather expensive but necessary tools), and we'll see if that's causing your problem.

Second, the alloy may just be too hard. That's what I think.

I really like Bullseye, but if it's causing problems I'll end up switching. Just finding out I like faster powders is all. I have some AA#2 hanging around here as well - I don't like AA#5, burns too slowly and is dirty. I like bullseye, too, but I also like IMR 3031. Not that I'd try it in a .45. The point is correct application of powder. Try Universal or Unique, those are about right for your application.

Oh, I'm using a taper crimp, Lee factory crimp die. Be careful with your crimp. Lead boolits in a .45ACP only need enough taper crimp to straighten the bellmouth. If you go any further, the case just springs back, and you've inadvertently sized your boolit down undersized.

Thanks,

Josh <><

Just trying to help.

Gear

[Josh Smith]

Thanks folks.

Ok, here's what I'm going to do:

First, the boolits I make are also sold on Gunbroker. That's why I have so many lying around. Gamers buy these and like them hard, so I'll keep those for sale.

I'll just cast my personal bullets softer.

Second, I'll open up the crimp a bit. I used a Federal Hydra-Shok round to set it: I lowered it until it made contact then gave it half a turn. I will take that half turn off and see if it straightens the flair out.

I'll do one step at a time until the problem is solved. Really not looking forward to slugging that barrel again, but I reckon it has to be done.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[broomhandle]

Hi Josh,

Where is "most" of the leading at the chamber or the crown?

Get a real Chore Boy COPPER pad, it makes short work of any leading in a barrel.

WARNING! :Walmart sells a STEEL pad that is copper plated RUN AWAY fpor that pad!

I agree with the other posters, Bulleye might bee too fast for the 230 gr. bullet. I have had NO leading with Bullseye loads in 185 & 200 grain SWC.

Be well, broom

[Josh Smith]

Thanks Broom.

The lead comes out quite easily; I just don't like scratching the bore is all.

Most of the leading is actually in the middle.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[snaggdit]

Slugging is not that bad. Be sure to cast a few PURE boolits or use a fishing sinker. WW will be a bear to drive in. Also remember to run a wet patch of oil through the barrel first and rub some oil on the slug. The slide on a 1911 comes off easy. Do it, then place the muzzle on a chunk of wood and drive the slug in from the chamber (use a wood dowel or CAREFULLY a metal rod wrapped in electrical tape) . The throat will help it slide into the bore. Over the past 6 months of trying to help folks (and being helped!) I have discovered that this is the MOST important thing to do FIRST when troubleshooting accuracy or leading issues. I did it after the fact myself at first, so I speak from firsthand experience.

[Leftoverdj]

Josh, quit worrying about what you like and concentrate on what works.

[geargnasher]

A 1911 barrel has got to be the easiest barrel to slug that there is. Just use pure lead like Snaggdit said so you get a true reading (alloys can "spring back" causing oversize readings). Remove the barrel, drill a 1/2" hole in a 2X4 block, place the barrel muzzle over the hole, and drive the slug through the oiled bore from the chamber end with a 7/16" dowell from the hardware store.

Then take two asprin and call us in the morning :kidding:

Gear

ps I learned most of this stuff from folks here, and it works!

[MtGun44]

Softer and try a more conventional lube. Some have good results with Lee mule snot,
some do not. Whenever someone using Liq Alox has leading, they should at least try
regular NRA formula or other known good quality conventional lube.

Probably the key is too hard, but IMHO Lee liq alox is marginal as a lube and when there
are problems it should be at least tested to see if it is the problem. If not, there are many
other things to work with.

Bill

[243winxb]

FCD is sizing the bullet smaller in the loaded Round. Undersize bullets. Measure a bullet, load it. FCD size/crimp it. Pull bullet, is it same as when loader, Or is it now smaller in diameter??
Lube is the Alox, The bullet should have a brownish color if the right amount is applied after sizing. Follow Lee's instructions, warm, and apply.

[BD]

When you say "tinsel" are you referring to loose thin strips of lead? I've seen this happen in 1911 barrels which never got throated for whatever reason. The abrupt ledge at the start of the lands cuts a strip out of the boolit as it's forced by. These get ironed into the bore by subsequent boolits, but you can often see the strips from the last boolit shot hanging in there. The cure is to throat the barrel, or clean it well and run a couple of thousand jacketed rounds down the tube until the lands erode down a bit.

Also, not to start one of these endless discussions, but IMHO if you have a throat and your boolit fits the bore in a .45 acp, it doesn't make any difference at all how hard it is relative to leading. Straight linotype, or pure lead, all will shoot just fine without leading in a 1911. A lot of the leading we see in the first inches of the barrel is bits of lead scraped off the boolits on the way through getting ironed in by subsequent rounds. I really don't think hardness has much to do with it.

BD

[fredj338]

Gear, you are right about "groove" diameter. Thanks for the correction.

Also nice to hear someone else who doesn't like bullseye for heavy boolits. Too many cast boolit folks seem to use fast powder with heavy boolits, without really understanding what it's doing.

I'm not an uberfast powder guy for any bullet wt. I just don't like small charges of powder, too easy to make a mistake on a progressive. With lead bullets, my best accuracy often comes w/ medium burners like Unique & WSF but you can NOT run them at anything much below midrange or they start leaving unburnt powder.
As to the leading, if you are water dropping, the bullets are likely too hard for the pressures you are running. It's why you are seeing better results running BE hot (5.2gr is hot). I would stop water dropping & just try the ww air cooled. It's what I shoot in all my 45s & for the most part, leading is not a problem. Also the LFCD, if used wrong, can really cause problems as it squeezes down bullet & you'll get gas blow by & that will cause leading too.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Last night I cast about 300 air cooled boolits, and while they were still warm, put a double charge of that lube on them.

I also belled out a case and turned the Lee FCD back by about half a turn. Calipers say that the bell is being taken off, but that's it. In other words, I've now got it set at the minimum spot it will do its job, not the "additional half turn" Lee suggests.

I'll load a few of these up here in a bit and see how they run.

I'll keep you updated.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[yondering]

Josh, get rid of that stupid Lee factory crimp die, and try a standard taper crimp die. I like Lee's factory crimp dies for rifle rounds, but their straight wall pistol crimp dies are designed to size down the outside of the loaded round to minimum specs so they work in all chambers. This sizes your boolit smaller, after it has been seated in the case, so you don't know it until you measure it or lead your barrel. I think those dies are a stupid idea, and an attempt to fix a problem that doesn't exist. (This is directed at Lee, not you personally.)

You are right in backing the die off to just get rid of the flare in the case mouth; that's all the crimp you need. Unfortunately the die is probably still sizing the case body (and boolit) smaller. Please correct me if this is wrong.

[mpmarty]

+1 on not using the stupid Lee factory crimp die on straight wall pistol cases. The confusion arises because the Lee factory crimp die for bottle neck cases is a very fine device that works extremely well as it has a collet that does the work. The pistol version is just like loading nice ammo and then running it into a standard sizing die. You wind up with a squeezed down boolit in the case and a loose fit in the case to boot except for the little crimp at the leading edge of the case. A 45 acp or for that matter any pistol cartridge needs to have a firm grip on the entire length of the boolit rather than a tight spot at the tip. Coming out of the Lee die the carbide ring damages the thing unless you have a minimum diameter boolit and thin case mouth, in which it does nothing at all.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Here are pics of the barrel after I sent 70 air cooled, uber lubed, 230gn LRN boolits down the barrel with a charge of 5.2gn Bullseye. They are big files; click to view full size.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/th_DSC00015.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/?action=view&current=DSC00015.jpg)

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/th_DSC00014.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/?action=view&current=DSC00014.jpg)

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/th_DSC00013.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/?action=view&current=DSC00013.jpg)

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/th_Untitled-1.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/1911/barrel%20leading/?action=view&current=Untitled-1.jpg)

All pics were taken from the muzzle end, and look similar to Missouri Bullet Company's fouling. (I used their bullets before I began casting my own.)

Reminds me of a .22LR barrel after firing 50 or so.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Josh <><

[yondering]

I suspect your boolits are undersized after going through that Lee FCD. Pull a few of the loaded rounds and measure them.
Make sure to slug the bore too. It's entirely possible your bore is on the large side.

[HeavyMetal]

How about a shot of that barrel clean?

I pulled all the pic's up and ran them full size, and saw what looks like tool marks in the rifling but this barrel has got a lot going on so I can't say for sure.

In this vain I had a fellow working with me a few years ago who bought a "budget" priced 1911. Lots of features good looking gun but 50 rounds and the bore was soild lead from end to end!

Took it home and cleaned it for him and couldn't belive how rough the barrel surface was! I've seen smoother corn cob's!

If the barrel cleans up and is smooth I will say again the Lee FCD is your problem or compounding your problem!

[geargnasher]

Josh, get rid of that stupid Lee factory crimp die, and try a standard taper crimp die. I like Lee's factory crimp dies for rifle rounds, but their straight wall pistol crimp dies are designed to size down the outside of the loaded round to minimum specs so they work in all chambers. This sizes your boolit smaller, after it has been seated in the case, so you don't know it until you measure it or lead your barrel. I think those dies are a stupid idea, and an attempt to fix a problem that doesn't exist. (This is directed at Lee, not you personally.)

You are right in backing the die off to just get rid of the flare in the case mouth; that's all the crimp you need. Unfortunately the die is probably still sizing the case body (and boolit) smaller. Please correct me if this is wrong.

DOUBLEPLUSONE on everything you said, especially the amount of crimp. I use the taper-crimp die to just remove the bellmouth (checked with mic to make sure) and have zero boolit movement in cartridges in mag under recoil, even with hot loads.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Josh, again, I beseech you, determine the boolit/barrel fit before you waste any more primers, make sure it is at least .001" interference fit, and quit using the sixth-fastest-burning smokeless powder on the planet with those heavy 230-grainers. By the pics, something is badly wrong, worse than just a lube or alloy issue IMO. Looks like terrible boolit fit to me, but maybe, like someone said, your leade hasn't been cut and is shaving the boolits. If you slug your bore from the chamber end and it leaves scrapings behind you will know this is the case.

Gear

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I found my notes from before: Grooves: .440 Lands: .433

The boolits are .452" +/- .001"

This is a Rock Island Armory base pistol. When I built it, I kept the barrel. Are these known for bad finish?

Josh <><

[snaggdit]

Slug it again. If those are the measurements, how could you be posting us! You would be injured (or dead) from a blown up pistol. .012 over groove? Pressure spike would be horrendous.

I don't own a Rock Island but have not heard any bad reports on one. This spring I wanted one but the backlog tipped me to the Hi Point. 2 weeks and I was making boom sounds.

[Josh Smith]

Snaggit,

Yeah, that's kinda' what I thought.

I will be finding a suitable fishing sinker this afternoon after taking care of a few things.

Josh <><

[wayne5397]

I have enjoy the question and answer here on this post. i have one or two question my self. I can see there is alot of leading in this barrel but when other say no leading do you mean no leading at anytime or very little leading. when i clean my barrel my first patch will take out some small speck of lead the second is usual clean. is this good or bad. thank for the information. Wayne

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Just slugged again:

.450" across the grooves

About .445" across the lands (not the best of slugging jobs)

I have just a bit of shaved lead - one small sliver only, still on the slug.

Josh <><

[DLCTEX]

What does the boolit mike after sizing? Looks as if it needs to be .451, but .452 should be OK. Have you fired any jacketed in this gun? It may need some polishing of the edges in the barrel. Some jacketed rounds or fire lapping may be in order. Even one small sliver is of concern if it happens repeatedly.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I used to fire nothing but jacketed in this pistol, as I didn't use to reload.

I could fire lap; just embed some grit in a cast boolit or three, or lube it with polishing compound.

Josh <><

[DLCTEX]

If it has had a lot of jacketed run through it then it should have polished the rifling. Need to figure out the shaving. With the shallow rifling you don't want to wear it if you don't have to.

[BD]

Looks to me like something's shaving lead which is then getting ironed into the bore. A common culprit in my experience is .452 SWCs in a .450 bore with no throat. One way to check is to clean the barrel well and then fire a single round using the boolits in question and have a look. Then push a dry patch through and see what comes out. if it's shaving lead, the shavings should be apparent.

BD

[geargnasher]

Josh, sounds like you have a good boolit fit, I think Dale is really on to something. My only experience with .45 barrels is with Kimber, Bar-Sto, and Springfield armory which have all had good leades and the only leading problems I experienced kicked my behind for quite a while, but ended up being undersize-for-barrel boolits.

Leading in other guns I own were most often cured by boolit fit, different lube, increase/decrease harness, or increase/decrease in velocity (mild loads will lead the rifling trailing edge same as too hot a load or too fast a powder will), or a powder change.

Gear

[Gohon]

Oh, I'm using a taper crimp, Lee factory crimp die.

Are you sure it is the FCD or the regular Lee taper crimp die most people use for the 45 ACP? Is the top of the die open or closed? If I'm not mistaken, only the Carbide closed top Lee die (FCD) has the sizer ring in it. Can you feel the sized cartridge drag the bottom of the die on the down stroke?


I used a Federal Hydra-Shok round to set it: I lowered it until it made contact then gave it half a turn.

Big mistake........... how do you know the Hydra-Shok cartridge brass was the same length the brass you were reloading. Follow the instructions with the Lee die and skip the short cuts.

Personally I doubt the crimp is your problem. Even the FCD doesn't re-size that much. What size is your mould dropping the bullets at?