250 gn bullets in 45ACP??

[gregc]

good morning:

what a great forum this is. just found out about it earlier in the week and am looking forward to going through the posts a bit more thoroughly over the next while. although i've done a search, i couldn't find the answer i was looking for. while i've been casting for my 303 for some time, i'm new to casting for a 45 acp that i've recently picked up. i have a bunch of 250 gn bullets that i want to use but am not certain if they can/should be used in the 45. so, my two questions are:


1) should i be using 250 gns in the 45? i've heard many different opinions from gun store clerks and other range members. some say the 250 gns are too hard on the handgun and other say to use them with the appropriate load.

2) if the 250 gns can be used, what would some good starting loads be. i have bullseye and unique in my cabinet now and am always open to trying new loads.


thanks in advance for your replies

greg c

[mpmarty]

I'd start with about 2.5 gr of Bullseye and work up very carefully if the 2.5 didn't cycle the action. If it works the action leave it there. I used to shoot 265gr Kieth boolits in my G21 as I had thousands of them just laying around left over from some trading I had done. I was too lazy to melt them down and cast smaller boolits so I just shot them. As I recall I used Red Dot powder but don't remember the load.

[Firebricker]

Welcome gregc. I think 250 a little heavy but not outrageous ran some out of my 45 and they
did fine. But I would get a lighter lighter boolit if your shooting it a lot. Look under group buys and check out Mihec 200gr mould.


As far as powder and loads I would go with Unique over bullseye with hevier boolits.
Go to Alliants web sight for load info. FB

[DLCTEX]

IF you are going to use the 250 gr. boolits (which I have) I would reccomend that you use a 22# spring and Shok Buffs . One expert on 1911 was of the opinion that the heavier boolits would hammer the locking lugs too much. There isn't a real need to go heavier than 230 gr. IMHO, but some use of the heavies should be OK in a good quality gun. I can't help with the starting loads as I used Alcan 7, which is no longer available. One of the gun rags had an article on loading a special 300 gr. bullet, been a few years so I don't remember which one.

[Mallard57]

mpmarty,

I'd start with about 2.5 gr of Bullseye and work up very carefully if the 2.5 didn't cycle the action. If it works the action leave it there. I used to shoot 265gr Kieth boolits in my G21 as I had thousands of them just laying around left over from some trading I had done. I was too lazy to melt them down and cast smaller boolits so I just shot them. As I recall I used Red Dot powder but don't remember the load.
__________________


Marty,
How did those bullets shoot in your 21?
Jeff

[StarMetal]

I regularly shoot the RCBS 255 grain SWC out of my 45acps. The old Speer manual No. 9 has some loads for their swaged 250 grain SWC and I used Unique. As long as your particular pistol feeds them and you have them loaded safe there is no harm in using them.

I disagree on the battering of the locking lugs. The lugs are holding the pressure of the powder combustion, not the recoil. The recoil spring has nothing to do with the lugs taking a "battering". I would say that +P loads put more stress on the locking lugs as they run a higher pressure. If you believe that sort of thing then tell me how the 460 Rowland holds up so well and we're talking a heavy bullet there at near 44 mag velocities. It is a good idea to run a heavier recoil spring with heavier loads and I like using those recoil buffer pads on the spring guide rod.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

You are doing to get the same variety of opinion here that you got elsewhere. Here is my two cents worth. Oh yes... I have been shooting the 1911 pistol since 1961.

1. Can you load and shoot 250 grain bullets in the 45 ACP/1911? - Yes you can.
2. To do so, you must deep seat the bullets reducing the powder capacity and causing more pressure with the same amount of powder than you would in a case with normal bullet capacity.
3. Reliable loading data is almost non-existanct. Shure you will get what folks do here on this board and others, but I don't consider than reliable. It has not been tested. Beware.
4. There is the risk of stressing the pistol beyond it's design limits. It was not designed and balanced for 250 grain bullets.

Because of this, I see no reason to shoot 250 grain bullets in your pistol, just because you have them. Sell or swap them for a bullet of normal weight.

You will get several posts from folks telling you, they did it with no problems. I have done it with no problems, but that still doesn't make it a good idea.

[Hurricane]

If you are using a revolver or a single shot the 250 bullet should work fine in either the 45 APC case or the 45 Auto Rim. No worry about the shape of the boolit, anything you can chamber will work fine.

[DLCTEX]

Joe, did you read that I said anything about the spring having something to do with battering the lugs? I was just passing on what an "expert" said, I did not endorse nor disagree, as I don't have a lot of experience in this area. I just want greg c to have that viewpoint to consider so he can make an informed decision. As stated, I have used these (255 gr. RCBS) boolits in my gun with the 22# spring and Shok Buffs and Alcan 7.

[oldtoolsniper]

You are doing to get the same variety of opinion here that you got elsewhere. Here is my two cents worth. Oh yes... I have been shooting the 1911 pistol since 1961.

1. Can you load and shoot 250 grain bullets in the 45 ACP/1911? - Yes you can.
2. To do so, you must deep seat the bullets reducing the powder capacity and causing more pressure with the same amount of powder than you would in a case with normal bullet capacity.
3. Reliable loading data is almost non-existanct. Shure you will get what folks do here on this board and others, but I don't consider than reliable. It has not been tested. Beware.
4. There is the risk of stressing the pistol beyond it's design limits. It was not designed and balanced for 250 grain bullets.

Because of this, I see no reason to shoot 250 grain bullets in your pistol, just because you have them. Sell or swap them for a bullet of normal weight.

You will get several posts from folks telling you, they did it with no problems. I have done it with no problems, but that still doesn't make it a good idea.

Well put!

It’s nice when someone doesn’t just say I wouldn’t do that and there is no explanation or reason as to why.

[StarMetal]

You are doing to get the same variety of opinion here that you got elsewhere. Here is my two cents worth. Oh yes... I have been shooting the 1911 pistol since 1961.

1. Can you load and shoot 250 grain bullets in the 45 ACP/1911? - Yes you can.
2. To do so, you must deep seat the bullets reducing the powder capacity and causing more pressure with the same amount of powder than you would in a case with normal bullet capacity.

That why the loads out there for the heavier longer bullets are reduce.

3. Reliable loading data is almost non-existanct. Shure you will get what folks do here on this board and others, but I don't consider than reliable. It has not been tested. Beware.

The companies that produce load data have had loads for the heavier bullets, it's just because it's not a standard or often used bullet weight in this cartridge. I'm positive if you called them they would give you a load.

4. There is the risk of stressing the pistol beyond it's design limits. It was not designed and balanced for 250 grain bullets.

It's a fallacy that is stressed the pistol. I've already posted something about that.

Because of this, I see no reason to shoot 250 grain bullets in your pistol, just because you have them. Sell or swap them for a bullet of normal weight.

I'll give you one good reason for their use. I had a detective friend in Tulsa, Ok and he carried a Colt Combat Commander at that time. His load was with the 250 gr Speer SWC. I asked him why he used that and he said it had good knock down powder and he didn't load it no ways hot.

You will get several posts from folks telling you, they did it with no problems. I have done it with no problems, but that still doesn't make it a good idea.

There have been many "hot" wildcats build on the old 1911 and used with no problem, the 460 Rowland being one. The 1911 grip frame has even been used on some exotic carbines with some pretty large rifle rounds. The first abuse I see on 1911's is battering of on front of the rails where the slide stops against it. This can even happen with light loads over long use. The reason I mentioned the buffer pads.

Joe

[fredj338]

You are doing to get the same variety of opinion here that you got elsewhere. Here is my two cents worth. Oh yes... I have been shooting the 1911 pistol since 1961.

1. Can you load and shoot 250 grain bullets in the 45 ACP/1911? - Yes you can.
2. To do so, you must deep seat the bullets reducing the powder capacity and causing more pressure with the same amount of powder than you would in a case with normal bullet capacity. Except you use less powder.
3. Reliable loading data is almost non-existanct. Shure you will get what folks do here on this board and others, but I don't consider than reliable. It has not been tested. Beware. The older Lyman & Speer manuals have data.
4. There is the risk of stressing the pistol beyond it's design limits. It was not designed and balanced for 250 grain bullets. Loaded to mild vel. it will put less stress on the pistol design than 230gr+P loads.

Because of this, I see no reason to shoot 250 grain bullets in your pistol, just because you have them. Sell or swap them for a bullet of normal weight.

You will get several posts from folks telling you, they did it with no problems. I have done it with no problems, but that still doesn't make it a good idea. If we have all done it, including Lyman & Speer, then while not desireable, certainly not dangerous.While I agree that 230gr bullets are prefered to heavier weights, you can safely load 250gr bullets. Reliable data is available from older manuals. Work up the loads & pressures will be no greater than a 230gr bullet, bullet wt is not the determining factor when it comes to pressures. Yes there is less case column under the longer bullet but you are also using less powder so pressures can remain the same. Getting them to feed properly will be the bigger problem.

[softpoint]

I used to shoot a lot of the old Lyman 238gr. swc that was intended for the auto rim. I don't recall the number on that mold ,but I still have it Out of my molld and alloy that bullet weighed in at over 250 grains! The bullet has a very large meplat so it isn't seated overly deep.
Use a 20 lb. spring and work up your loads carefully using a shock buff. Take the slide off your pistol every couple of magazines fired and inspect for the buff becoming beat up. if it does, back off. There is data out there on these loads, and I'd rather not publish any of the ones I was using for someone else's gun. The reason I say not to go over 20 lb. on the spring is because damage can be done by the slide's forward momentum,too
And yes, you can go further. I used to play with the .45 Super a lot and we went as high as 32lb. Springs (wolf will sell them to you.) We finally settled on 28 lb. and I finally decided my 1911's were worth too much to me to shoot a large number of those loads.I still shoot Supers in my 625's.
The 460 Rowland must be compensated or it WILL wreck a 1911. Since I don't care for comped guns outside competition I've no real interest in it.
Ace's gunshop here in Texas originated the Super, I believe the Rowland was originated by Clark.
The weight of the slide is one limiting factor, too much spring (32lb) and you start to get coil bind, where the spring wire is large enough that the spring coils compress all the way together before the slide reaches full rearward travel.
Stay within reasonable levels and you'll be fine.

[yondering]

The real limiting factor with 250gr bullets in the 45 ACP isn't so much the weight of the bullet, but the fact that they have to be seated deeper to fit in the magazine. As someone pointed out above, they work fine in a revolver, where they can be seated longer.

Obviously the seating depth depends on the gun and bullet shape, so use a dummy cartridge, starting with it too long, and seat it deeper so it will just fit in the magazine. Make sure it will feed, and make double sure you can extract the loaded round by hand. If you can't, the boolit may be seated out too far and jamming into the rifling.

Also be aware that some 250gr boolits have to be seated deep enough in the case that the boolit base is down into the start of the case taper. (The case walls aren't straight all the way down, they get thicker towards the case head.) If you get very much of this bulge, you may find loaded rounds sticking in the chamber or not chambering completely.

Re. powder choice, the faster powders like Bullseye or Red Dot are NOT the best idea for heavy bullets. Especially in small capacity cases, heavy boolits = slower powder. The faster powders result in higher pressures with lower velocity. The load manuals will show this too. Unique is a good choice, and pretty much the only thing I use for 250gr boolits in my 1911 (although I have used Universal, and it's OK too). Seated out as long as possible, 6.0gr Unique is about as high as I will go in my 1911 with a 250gr boolit.

[Char-Gar]

Softpoint-- You are talking about the old Keith design for the 45 Auto-Rim round (452423). I have fired many thousands of these in all sorts of sixguns and auto-pistols. Cast from linotype it will weight 230 grains and from WW will run 242 to 246 grains depending on what is in the mix.

There is some data on this bullet loading in the ACP round. I have used 4.5/BE and crept up to 4.7/BE. I have killed several small Texas whitetail with this load from a Colt Gold Cup pistol, plus many lesser critters.

What I don't do is load the heavier Keith bullets (and clones) designed for the 45 Colt round. Yes, some folks do, but some folks jump our of airplanes, walk on tight wires and do all sorts of others suff as well.

Fred... I have the older manuals. IIRC they deal with 240 grains bullets like 452423 above mostly in the Auto Rim case with a few in the ACP case. The older Speer manual that many refer to contains some mind blowing loads in the AR case with 2400 powder. A close check will reveal these were put together in the old ballon head cases. There is also a reason that Speer has not published this data in years, as it is way over anything that will pass legal muster these days.

In the days when I was young and limber and could jump a three rail fence, I used these loads. Yes, I lived to tell the tale, but I did shake a good Remington-Rand 1911A1 to rattling junk. I started handloading and shooting back in 1958, but somewhere along the way, I grew up and decided not to hunt out any more red lines.

Lots of folks do lots of things, but as I said, that doesn't make it a good idea. I certainly would not encourage others to do some of the things I have done with firearms and loads.

Joe/Starmetal... You have challlenged me on just about every subject under the sun over the years and I no longer have any interest in playing that game. Believe what you wish. Shoot what you wish. Think what you wish. Live long and prosper.

[mpmarty]

Marty,
How did those bullets shoot in your 21?
Jeff
Mallard57 is offline Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message

They shot GREAT! Velocity was low, around 675 fps which made "major" in USPSA/IPSC and when one of those locomotives hit a plate or popper you knew it.

Accuracy out to fifty yards was very good but elevation was critical as they dropped some between 2 and 50.

By the way this was a first generation G21 that ate cast like a champ. No leading issues and accuracy was outstanding. If the grip angle had just been more to my liking I wouldn't have moved on to Tanfoglio pistols for competition. :Fire:

[theperfessor]

Years ago I used the RCBS .45 round nose flat point bullet in a Colt Gov model for shooting bowling pins. Didn't have a chronograph so I don't know about velocity but I think I used Unique and worked up to get reliable cycling. The small flat point seemed to hang onto the pins better than a pure RN and 255 grs beats 200 grs anyday when it comes to momentum.

If anybody made a 230 gr mold for a RNFP I probably would have used that instead.

Could never get a real SWC to feed right.

Didn't shoot enough of them to cause any wear that I could see and the cases came out looking normal as any other safe load.