Handgun shot shells for auotloaderes

[harley45]

On the old Aimo board I had started a thread about this and there was some really good information, that I am hoping we can recreate. I was curious as to how most people do the .45 ACP, do you use the rcbs kit or something else.
P.S. Some one sent me a scan of the Ed Harris article that is no longer available from the NRA. If that is still available I'd be interested.
Thanks, Eric

[94Doug]

I have the RCBS Set. A lot of work, but it does function. I have an article out of a .45 magazine, I owe a scan to another member when I do find it. I can send you one as well, I just need to dig. This is using shot with a 00 buck to cap the shell. I would like the Ed Harris one as well.

Doug

[harley45]

My goal is to take what I learn from the .45 and use that t cme up with some 10mm shells

[skeet1]

I have made .45 ACP shot shells usign .308 Win. cases cut back to a length of a loaded 45 then necked down thew forward end of the case. I used .410 shotshell wads and an over the shot wad. They shot well and ejected ok. I don't remember what powder load I used but I think it may have been 700X. For the necking down process I used a .220 swift die that made it about the right dia. as I remember.

Skeet1

[DLCTEX]

I have made shot loads for my 45 ACP 1911. The ones I settled on do not operate the slide, but have to be cycled by hand. I use a rifle case of the 308 or 30-06 class and cut the case with a tubing cutter to a length that will fit the magazine. I then use a 41 mag. size die to reduce a neck (approx. 3/8") so that the case just seats in the barrel, which has been removed from the gun for a guage. Once the proper length has been set, a number of cases can be run quickly. I then load 3 gr. Bullseye powder, followed by a styrofoam wad cut from a takeout tray, or an egg cartom, and seated with a 223 case into which I glued a dowel rod for a handle. The wads are cut with an empty 45 case which has serretions filed in the mouth. The case mouth is thin so the cutting is done by twisting rather than applying heavy pressure. I drilled the primer hole to enable the wad to be pushed out with a small rod. I usually cut 3, then push them out. Now pour in the shot (I use #9) to about 1/8" from the mouth of the case being loaded, add another wad, compress it with the 223 case, and glue it in place. I use Dap tub and tile caulk to glue the wad in place, but Elmers or some such will do. Let dry. I have laoded 45 cases this way, but you don't get much shot in the case. Just my way of doing it.

[yondering]

I have the RCBS kit, and have experimented with a bunch of different loads. Primer box cardboard works for over-powder and over-shot wads (the case crimps over the wad, no buckshot needed), although I've also used winchester .410 shot wads, cut to length. These work a little better, but hold less shot.

I've never been able to creat my own shotshells that pattern as well as the loaded CCI stuff. Those will cycle a semi-auto action, BTW.

I'd like to buy some #12 shot to work with though.

[snaggdit]

I have made shot loads for my 45 ACP 1911. The ones I settled on do not operate the slide, but have to be cycled by hand. I use a rifle case of the 308 or 30-06 class and cut the case with a tubing cutter to a length that will fit the magazine. Are we talking OAL of a typical round? I then use a 41 mag. size die to reduce a neck (approx. 3/8") so that the case just seats in the barrel, which has been removed from the gun for a guage. If I am following you, this narrower end sits where the bollit typically would in the throat Once the proper length has been set, a number of cases can be run quickly. I then load 3 gr. Bullseye powder, followed by a styrofoam wad cut from a takeout tray, or an egg cartom, and seated with a 223 case into which I glued a dowel rod for a handle. Since they are cut with a .45 case, the opening is much smaller now, right? Do they push in without tearing? The wads are cut with an empty 45 case which has serretions filed in the mouth. The case mouth is thin so the cutting is done by twisting rather than applying heavy pressure. I drilled the primer hole to enable the wad to be pushed out with a small rod. I usually cut 3, then push them out. Now pour in the shot (I use #9) to about 1/8" from the mouth of the case being loaded, add another wad, compress it with the 223 case, and glue it in place. I use Dap tub and tile caulk to glue the wad in place, but Elmers or some such will do. Let dry. I have laoded 45 cases this way, but you don't get much shot in the case. Just my way of doing it.

Unfortunately, I do not have a .41 Mag die. Would 40/10mm be too small? I would assume that the shot would fire form it to some extent. Just curious. And Yondering, how do you "crimp the case over the wad"? Oops, one more question. In seating the first wad, do you push it all the way down onto the powder, or seat to the bottom of the neck down? If the latter, how do you compress it without pushing it farther into the case?

[leadman]

I read an article in a ?Feb. 2001 Handloader 2 nights ago. This might be available on their website. Al Miller wrote it, pretty interesting.

[woodsie57]

Dale Clawsons method is the same as I've used for .44 mag cases- works great, requires no additional equiptment purchase. Kills water moccasins well.

[yondering]

And Yondering, how do you "crimp the case over the wad"? Oops, one more question. In seating the first wad, do you push it all the way down onto the powder, or seat to the bottom of the neck down? If the latter, how do you compress it without pushing it farther into the case?

The RCBS 45 ACP shotshell die set crimps the case mouth into a ball shape, it doesn't close it completely but the end result mimics a loaded 45 ACP round nose flat/hollow point.

The first wad just goes over the powder. Powder type does significantly affect shot capacity, so faster/denser powders like Bullseye or Clays work well.

The shot is poured in on top of the first wad, then the second wad is placed on the shot, and the case is run into the crimp die (which would be the seater die in a normal die set).

I'll try to post up some pictures if I get time this evening.

[94Doug]

...and I could send you a case if you would like to see one. I'm closer to ya.

Doug

[mtnman31]

I trim the rifle case (.243 range pick-ups since I don't own a .243) to 1.2" then neck down the "bullet" area with a 7.62x39 die. I use the .410 shotgun wads as well and trim them to fit inside the formed case. For trimming the wads I have a formed case that I drilled the primer hole out of, seat the wad down and use a razor or X-acto blade to trim off the excess wad at the case mouth. They are not exactly the same length but close enough. After charging with powder, seating the wad onto the powder and adding the shot, I cap it off with a gas check and crimp it. I need to modify a die to get better crimps becuse right now the dies I have tried aren't working all that well. The methods I use were taken from an old edition of Handloader that covered using the RCBS set. Since I don't have the RCBS set I just modified it to work with what I have on hand. They are a lot of work and I think that once I get the crimping issue worked out I will be content with them.

I tried a similar process with .357 Max cases in a .357Mag. - minus the shotshell wad. I think I ended up using an 8mm Mauser die from a Lyman 310 set to neck down the forward part of the case. I haven't shot any of these yet but they fit in the revolver. I also didn't anneal the brass and ruined a few cases before I realized my error. I think I used egg carton for wads over the powder and crimped a .30 or .32cal gas check on top to seal these. Sorry it has been a while since I played with these and I can't find my notes on what I did - just going from memory.

Anyone have a good source for shot smaller than #9???

[snaggdit]

Thanks for the offer, 94Doug, but I think I have a picture in my mind now. The reason I am so interested is I'm heading back to Arkansas next Friday for a week. Last time, there was one snake in the pole shed but I expect to see more. I would carry my 45 around and something that would take out snakes would be nice. I have tons of 30-06 and 270 brass. Thanks for the 7.62 idea for a sizer. Got that. Crimping... Maybe my .309 boolit sizer, using the beveled feed ramp to crimp. Or will that bulge the case? I might have to experiment.

[defib]

Hey guys there is an members article on this in the castpics area. Thats the one I'm using for reference. He just touches on autoloaders though.

[DLCTEX]

snaggdit: I couldn't get it there in time to help for your trip, but if you want to make some cases I can lend you the 41 size die and even send some 308 blank cases to make them from. PM me if interested. You could do in water mocs with the standard 45 case load at close range. No crimp needed, just glue the overshot wad in place. I use the Speer caps in my 38 and they work well but do foul the bore with plastic. Ed's Red gets it out easily. I bought some Speer loaded shot rounds at WalMart on a close out and was concerned about the capsule breaking on the feed ramp of my 1911. As yet I have only fired one to put a stray dog on the move (he was 40 yds. away and left quickly).

[snaggdit]

Thanks Dale, I'll let you know upon my return. I might try to experiment on my own before I go. I have been thinking about the crimp. If you use foam for both, the pressure doesn't really build up much, right? I would think a gas check with a case crimp would build up slightly more pressure. Enough to possibly work the action on an auto loader with 3 or 4 gr of Red Dot? I suppose having to rack the slide would be OK, but with an angry snake in front of you, it would be nice to not have to remember to do so. My MIL is getting Internet access up there since she will need to stay in touch with the office for the week. I'll let you know how they work on the WM.

[yondering]

snagdit, if your trip is next week, I'd advise finding some of the CCI shotshells. They really do work well, and will cycle the action. In snake country sometimes I carry my 1911 with one shotshell in the chamber, and a mag full of HP's or ball or whatever.

Couldn't get pics of the shotshells last night, I'll try again tonight.

[snaggdit]

Yeah, I will do that if I am unsuccessfull or run out of time. I like to play around, though. Don't we all? Otherwise we would be buying ammo[smilie=1:

[yondering]

Yeah, I will do that if I am unsuccessfull or run out of time. I like to play around, though. Don't we all? Otherwise we would be buying ammo[smilie=1:

Yep, amen to that! :drinks:

[mrmeanbean74]

go to the search engine and put in snake loads.lot of info about them

[Mk42gunner]

I found a copy of the Ed Harris article, but I don't remember if it was on the internet or in an old Gun Digest.

The easy way is to use 45 Win Mag cases; they are the length you will trim rifle cases to anyway if you can find them. That being said I used 243 Win cases cut with a Dremel tool and then trimmed using a 41 cal pilot. I tapered the front of the case with a 22-250 sizing die until the case chambered fully, (didn't have a 41 or 10mm die).

LP primer then started with 6.2 grains of W231, cutdown 410 wad seated with a 5/16" rod. I have used both tablet backing and 35 cal gas checks for overshot wads, I think the gas check works better; if only because it is more durable.

I crimped the end of the case by feel (and much checking) with the entrance to a CH 357 taper crimp die.

These will feed from the magazine in my Kimber. As per MR. Harris's article, some load tweaking up or down may be required.

I figured I could do a lot of experimenting for the cost of the RCBS dies.

Good Luck,

Robert

[MakeMineA10mm]

My goal is to take what I learn from the .45 and use that t cme up with some 10mm shells

You mean like these?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=180&pictureid=1039

The 10mm Auto is BY FAR the EASIEST round to make shotloads for!!

I bought a hundred Star-Line 10mm Magnum cases, and found them to run about 1.254"-1.258" after being resized with 10mm Auto RCBS dies. This is perfect as the 10mm Auto overall loaded length maximum is 1.260", so NO TRIMMING!! :mrgreen:

Simply resize in 10mm dies, prime them with your favorite LP primer, and load with medium to medium-fast powder that will get reliable semi-auto functioning. (I used W231, and had to get primer flattening to get functioning, so I'm moving on to Unique and Herco next. HS-6 would be a good choice, because it doesn't take up as much room, so you'd get more shot in there...)

At this point, I've cut wadding from some craft board that I bought at Hobby-Lobby. It is basically poster board on 1 side (I've also got some with poster-board on both sides) and hard styrofoam foam board on the other (or in the middle for the two-sided stuff). It works quite well as wadding, but I've found you either need two layers of the thin stuff, or one layer of the thicker stuff.

Next, you carefully adjust some 38/357 dies to narrow the mouth area of the case to fit into the throat of the chamber. These dies actually make the nose section smaller than what is needed to fit in the throat, but with this smaller diameter (.385"), they feed fine - more like a WFN bullet nose profile. You can see in the pic above how far down I had to adjust my 38 dies to get the loaded round to seat all the way into the chamber.

Next, fill the case up with shot. I used #9, which left some spots in the pattern empty at 10', so my next round of loading will be with #11 or #12 shot.

Last, I tried both a .358" gas check and an over-shot wad made from the same foam-poster sandwich board as the over-powder wad. Both work about the same, and cause some patches in the pattern. I'll next try some cardboard of about the thickness of what cartridge boxes are made from. The thing I like about the gas checks is that there's no need for glue, which I hate... I also used a 45ACP RN seater stem to put a nice curve/ogive on the nose of the case/false bullet.

The loads I made up the first couple times gave good enough patterns for snake defense. I want to work on modifying the wadding and powders to get more optimum results, but I've gotten a good start going for ya! :drinks:

[snaggdit]

OK, Prototyped a few tonight between other obligations... Cut 30-06 cases with a tube cutter to just over 1.2". Then put them in my case trimmer and made them 1.2". Used my case reamer to slightly bevel the inside and outside edges. Used the 7.62 sizer die and made the shoulder. Played with it comparing to a standard 45 until it was just under. Dropped it in the chamber and it dropped in flush. Used my /309 push through boolit sizer and made a slight round nose. I was feeling pretty good! Put it in the clip and racked it, no problem! Fed fine. Now for the problem. My 45 is a Hi Point. The extractor is thick. A standard 45 has a gentler bevel than a 30-06. It doesn't flip the shell out!!! The forward part of the extractor seems to hold the case from flipping free. I figure I have 2 choices. Try to chuck up each case in a drill press and remove a little more case to increase the bevel or file down the front part of the extractor. Neither sounds like fun. Any ideas? Oh, here's a pic of the experiment so far.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1412/snldssm.jpg
Notice the difference in bevels?

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, Prototyped a few tonight between other obligations... Cut 30-06 cases with a tube cutter to just over 1.2". Then put them in my case trimmer and made them 1.2".

Now for the problem. My 45 is a Hi Point. The extractor is thick. A standard 45 has a gentler bevel than a 30-06. It doesn't flip the shell out!!! The forward part of the extractor seems to hold the case from flipping free. I figure I have 2 choices. Try to chuck up each case in a drill press and remove a little more case to increase the bevel or file down the front part of the extractor. Neither sounds like fun. Any ideas? Oh, here's a pic of the experiment so far.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1412/snldssm.jpg
Notice the difference in bevels?

There is nothing wrong with your Highpoint or your loading technique. Your problem is the parent case you chose to make it out of. You must use 308 Winchester, as it has a beveled/relieved extractor groove identical to the 45ACP. I was given about 120 blank 7.62 Nato rounds a few years ago. Disassembled them, de-linked them, and then converted them over to 45 Shotshells. Extractor groove works perfect.

[fallout4x4]

Either use .308 or take the 30-06 to a lathe and open up the groove. Thats what Im doing. I don't feel like using my 308 brass and I have about 2 doz 30-06 so im taking them to the lathe at work monday.

Snagg: you could do it with 1/2 drill and a file, just be careful

[mtnman31]

Snaggdit, looks like you got it down. That is what mine come out like except you have a more rounded nose. I think I'll have t try the idea of using the RN bullet seater to close up the case.

As suggested use the gas checks. When you fill the case, the shot can be right at the mouth and when you seat the gas check it will compress the shot just right. I'd also suggest the 308 class cases as others have, save you a little work.

[harley45]

MakeMinea10mm, Thank you so much for the ideas it saved me a ton of time and trials.

[yondering]

snagdit, those look pretty good. Good job on the rounded nose too, that's pretty creative. Here's some pics of results using the RCBS die set, they are pretty similar to what you have cooked up. Left to right: - .308 brass trimmed to 1.23" and sized - .410 wad in brass, with cardboard over shot wad - loaded round, crimped nose - fired case which split because i didn't anneal the mouth

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Misc/IMG_2423.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Misc/IMG_2424.jpg

[fallout4x4]

question: how far do you have to neck them down? Anything under .449 work???