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lead-1
07-06-2009, 05:53 AM
I just slugged the bore and chamber on my Winchester model 70 in .30-06. I took a sized and trimmed case filled with lead and chambered it, then drove a lead bullet down the bore from the muzzle and tapped on it until it felt solid and the bolt was snug on opening and recorded the following measurments.
The area ahead of the case neck and before the rifling (freebore?) was .310, the bore was .308 and the rifling grooves are .302 across the grooves, it is a four groove barrel.
I have bought a brand new LEE C309-160-R two cavity mold, will I have any problems with bullets from this mold being .309 and the slug showing .310, I plan on shooting a bullet harder than just WW with a gas check.

Wayne Smith
07-06-2009, 07:46 AM
Bore is the hole drilled in the blank. Groove is the rifling. You are measuring your bore at .302" and your groove at .308" with a throat of 310". I'm not familier with that boolit, but if it is a bore rider it should fit perfectly. If not "Beagle" the mold and you will probably have just the right size.

More importantly, what size is your sizer? If you are seating gc's you are sizing some. Are you giving us the diameter of your sized boolit or your unsized boolit?

Bret4207
07-06-2009, 08:13 AM
First off, just because Lee designates the mould as a .309 doesn't mean it's going to drop a boolit anywhere near .309. See what they drop in the alloy you intend to shoot. 2nd- Why do you want to go with harder than WW alloy?

Given your dimensions I would try a sizer in the .310 area first, if your gun will accept the loaded round that is. If you are lucky and the boolit drops at around .310 you can try shooting them "as cast, that is with no sizing by running them through a slightly oversize die to apply the GC or only partially running them into the die base first or trying the old snap the GC on and shoot trick, with lube of course.

Doc Highwall
07-06-2009, 09:06 AM
I would try the boolits sized at .310 to fit the throat.

lead-1
07-06-2009, 12:09 PM
Wayne, I used an oddball hollow point bullet I had laying around as a slug instead of a egg shaped sinker so these are the dimensions of my chamber and barrel. The only sizer I have at the time is a .308 LEE push thru. I thought if I was to harden up my WW some I could push the rounds a little faster, maybe I don't need to? I guess I will cast up some actual bullets with this mold and see what size it drops and compare the chamber slug to the cast bullet.

docone31
07-06-2009, 12:28 PM
I think, possibly, sizing to .308 will produce a lot of leading.
You should size to .309 at least.

snaggdit
07-06-2009, 12:53 PM
I increased the size of several of my Lee push through sizers by pushing some boolits through with fine valve grinding cpnd. Took about 30 pushes to get +.001 but YMMV. I checked every 10 or so. Since Lee doesn't make every possibility, this allows you to custom one for your needs. It really wasn't hard and only took me about 15 minutes each. Now I have a .309 for the 30-06 (slugged .3075) and a .313 (slugged .311) for the SKS.

Bret4207
07-06-2009, 12:59 PM
Wayne, I used an oddball hollow point bullet I had laying around as a slug instead of a egg shaped sinker so these are the dimensions of my chamber and barrel. The only sizer I have at the time is a .308 LEE push thru. I thought if I was to harden up my WW some I could push the rounds a little faster, maybe I don't need to? I guess I will cast up some actual bullets with this mold and see what size it drops and compare the chamber slug to the cast bullet.

Dear Lord, give me patience.:killingpc Look, this has been stated a zillion times here- hard lead does not equal faster speeds. It's not that simple. I can take straight WW to 2200+fps with ZERO leading and 1.5" accuracy at 100 yards, other are shooting boolits in the 8-9 Bhn at factory speed. So please, just try WW first. You have a long, long learning curve before you need to worry about juicing your alloy. Lets start with casting premium boolits, fitting them to your gun and working the kinks out at that level. I'm not picking on you or trying to be nasty, but it seems every single week we get someone doing what you are, so apparently we aren't getting the message across- Fit comes first. Hard alloys don't equal high speeds. Fit is king. lousy boolits equal mediocre groups. Start with the basics first- quality boolits that fit your gun.

lead-1
07-06-2009, 05:30 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa take it easy on that head, its the only one you get. I was under the impression that it took harder alloys to get closer to jacketed speeds but I would be happy in the 2200 fps range from the '06, actually tickled pink. Actually it sounds better that I don't have to mess with mixing metals for a while.
I will read threads until my head hurts and my search function just don't seem to get me what I am looking for, a lot of times it is a matter of one word being being off, ie, bore slugging and chamber slugging, I was actually wanting to match an artical I had read to the picture that I had saved. I am getting great info on this thread, now I know how to resize my sizer die that I had origanally bought to resize out of round jacketed military bullets. Since I have a .310 measurement on the chamber throat (?) I will cast a few bullets and check for size, if they are .309 should I beagle the mold to .310 or try the bullets at .309?


Thanks guys for the great input here.

Maven
07-06-2009, 07:27 PM
lead-1, I also have a Win. Mod. 70 (ca. 1980 or '81) and a Lee C-309-180R. The problem is my Lee mold and Lyman #311291 cast too small to fit my rifle and accuracy with either is only so-so. What you can try is casting, say 5 - 10 boolits with your mold and when cool enough to handle, try to insert the nose into your rifle's muzzle. If it meets with resistance and leaves rifling marks the length of the nose, you're probably in good shape. You may also want to oil your bbl. and then try reslugging it with one of the freshly cast Lees (grease the boolit as well). If slugging indicates you'll need to size to a larger diameter, it's not difficult to open a Lee sizing die a couple of thousandths of an inch. (We have a sticky on it somewhere, or you can look on the CASTPICS site (bottom of your screen) for instructions. I don't know about 2,200fps, but there are plenty of midrange loads (1,700fps - 1,800fps) that are very accurate. Hope this helps!

runfiverun
07-06-2009, 07:30 PM
always,always,always..try as you go.
i have a few h/v loads that work best with a slip fit in the bbl. h/v is when you go over 2200 fps.
most of my other rifles are 1-2 thou over groove diameter.
however the fit of the boolit to the throat will almost [90%] always trump what the bbl tells you to do.
even after fitting and measuring everything the rifle still won't shoot the boolit [sigh]
and it might just want more bearing [body] and less nose contact.
thats why most of the serious guy's on here have 5-6 30 cal molds by various manufacturers.

and I like brett spend more time on other boards explaining how a boolit with a bhn of 10 will go to 1600+ fps with a plain base,and one of 16 will go over 2k with a gas check.
but thats why we are here together to help each other figure out this cool stuff.
start with something change one thing at a time and it will slowly come together.

Bret4207
07-06-2009, 07:58 PM
I'm sorry if I came off too hard, I wasn't trying to be. It just seems we aren't getting past the advertising hype about hard boolits. Work your way up from the 12-1400 fps range and see what your gun tells you. It might say it wants a harder alloy but there's just as good a chance that with a properly fitted boolit and maybe a little water quenching you can get upwards of 2 K or more. I don't understand the idea of rushing to add tin and antimony to an already good alloy if it's not needed. Hard alloys can work fine at low to high speeds but why go to the trouble and expense if it's not needed? The sales hype sure has worked on this one!

lead-1
07-06-2009, 10:15 PM
No no, Bret, not hard at all. I guess that I have been a little threw by loading cast handgun bullet and being told not to go over 12-1400 fps so I figured same lead in a rifle would be same velocity. I just got back from the range to try two loads that I already had loaded both with .308 sized cast bullets,

4 rounds 13.5g Red Dot, CCI 200 primer, 185g spitzer type lead w/alox and gas check at a COL 3.245
4 rounds exact same round but 16g Unique

The best load by far was the Unique and it was a 12 shot vertical string right on the windage and this was at 50 yards. The same loads thru my 03-A3 at 100 yards gave me one hit on the target out of eight. I will try to get a handful of bullets cast with the 160g mold and see what happens with them in the next couple of days.
Will the LEE liquid ALOX be sufficiant lube for these or should I do a pan lube type lube.

BTW the rounds fired today had like 6 of 8 rounds that were not really keyholed but were not round holes.

Bret4207
07-07-2009, 07:30 PM
They were sized .308? Too small I'd bet. I regularly size .311 for several .30 calibers. I'd try at least .310. The non-round holes mean the boolits isn't stabilizing, possibly (probably) because the boolit is too small to seal and get a good grip from the rifling. Your OP says the barrel is .308 to .310 so I'd aim for trying .311 or .312 at a later date. What we measure and what the barrel wants aren't always the same thing. Also remember that a tight spot in the bore can make a .310 barrel look like it's a .308, but the rifle still needs that larger boolit.

lead-1
07-07-2009, 09:13 PM
Gotcha, now when I get to try a bigger diameter bullet will LEE Alox be an OK lube or should I use a pan type lube? I have both types.

snaggdit
07-07-2009, 09:17 PM
The adage change one thing at a time is a good one. If sizing larger doesn't improve it, then try a diff. lube. Although you might want to try +- powder loads first after sizing larger.

lead-1
07-07-2009, 09:56 PM
I am hopeing that the bullet size works but I wasn't sure if the Alox was a good lube choice for this type of bullet or if it was more for pistol bullets.

MT Gianni
07-07-2009, 10:35 PM
Try the alox first. It works OK in a few of my applications but is bettered in all by other wax type lubes.

Bret4207
07-08-2009, 07:36 AM
Ditto what the other guys said. Also, make sure that barrel is free of ALL fouling. Use all your favorite concoctions to clean it then get in there with some 4/0 steel wool or Chore Boy on a worn brush and scrub her good, then go back with the solvents again.

I wouldn't worry about the bore/groove size too much. The throat is what you size to. No matter what we do as far as sizing, the final sizer is the powder/throat combination. Fit the boolit to the throat. The only caveat to this is the extremely rare grossly oversized throat, but I doubt you'll find a Winchester 70 with that problem. So if your throat is running .310 I'd size at .310 and maybe try .311. Now .311 may sound too fat, but often our sizers run a tad small or the alloy doesn't size down quite as much as we think or our tools are off half a thou, you can try .311 as see if it chambers okay and the nose allows it. This is where undersized mould rear their ugly heads. Get one of those and then we have to take another route.

lead-1
07-08-2009, 02:33 PM
OK guys I went out this morning and finally actually cast a couple of boolits for myself. I cleaned my molds with brake cleaner then to the boiling water with a toothbrush and dish soap, after drying them good I used a candle to smoke them up real well. Fired up the LEE production pot IV and burnt the oil off of it and put in about six pounds of WW ingots, when it got about 750 degrees I fluxed with a little fine saw dust. I cast about 38 boolits and saved 30 of the .30 cal. 160 grain and cast about 56 boolits and save 50 of the .44 cal. 240 grain. When I get this matching the boolits to the gun thing down, this might get addicting, LOL.

I randomly picked out ten of the .30 cal boolits after they had air cooled for an hour or so and ran each one thru two different calipers at different spots. I'm sure that you know what I mean when I say they are not perfectly round but I may have lucked out as the predominant measurement (80% or more) is .311 with .310 and .312 spots, mostly of the .312's were on the casting line where the two mold halves meet. Measured each boolit in four spots with each caliper.

I think my next project is to push some jacketed bullets with valve grinding compound thru my .308 sizer to get it to at least .310 diameter. Sorry for the long post but I may be getting somewhere here, thanks guys, keep it coming.

BruceB
07-08-2009, 03:21 PM
" I used a candle to smoke them up real well."

Using a candle for mould-smoking can be a mistake. It deposits a thick, greasy sort of coating which can affect the bullet quality rather badly.

A better way of smoking is the use of a butane-fired "barbecue lighter", the long-snouted kind which keeps one's fingers from getting singed. The carbon coating is much thinner and drier than that from a candle. These are available wherever barbecue accessories are found, and generally cost less than three bucks. Plus, they're usually self-igniting, which is a great convenience.

Use only a MINIMUM of carbon-coating to start with, and actually I'd start with a new mould with NO smoking whatever...it might not be needed.

Best of luck with your new hobby.

lead-1
07-08-2009, 03:36 PM
Now I have an explanation for what I noticed, some of the first boolits had black spots where the soot came off the mold and actually had voids under the soot. I will clean the molds out before I try them again. I did smoke them pretty heavy.

Larry Gibson
07-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa take it easy on that head, its the only one you get. I was under the impression that it took harder alloys to get closer to jacketed speeds but I would be happy in the 2200 fps range from the '06, actually tickled pink. Actually it sounds better that I don't have to mess with mixing metals for a while........

lead-1

If you want to get "tickled pink" with consistently decent accuracy at 2200 fps from your '06 you will have to work at it. Your M70 also has a 10" twist barrel which means that over 1940 fps your bullets are exceeding the RPM threshold. You can push it to 2200 fps but it takes some doing. You will need a bit harder bullet but your WW alloy will work. I would suggest adding 2% tin to it and then water quenching the bullets straight out of the mould into cold water (how to has been covered many times-use the search). This will give your bullets a BHN of 18-22.

The fit to the throat of the bearing surface is imperative as already discussed but if your bullet's nose is less than half of the bearing surface then being undersize a thousanth or two is still acceptable. I've a 311291 that has an ill fitting nose by .002-.003" (just ask 45 2.1 about it) but both I and Bass Ackward have managed 2 MOA at 2200 fps or so with it out of our '06s (I do it in two different 10" twist '06s including a M70). I also routinely size to .311 for .308-.309 groove diamter rilfes. I'll suggest you take your sizer out to .311 so you are just barely sizing only a part of the bearing surface.

You'll want to use cases of the same lot # and all fire formed with neck sizing being best. I also use a .31 Mdie when using the .311 sized bullets as they seat easier with little distortion if any during seating. Seat the bullets so the front driving band is engraved slightly by the leade (the beginning of the rifling). The GC should not be below the case neck.

I suggest a regular LR primer like CCI 200s, Rem 9 1/2s or WLRs.

I also suggest you try medium to slow burning powders such as; 4895, Varget, RL19, 4350 and H4831SC. Start low enough so that the starting load of each powder is in the 1900 fps range. In the '06 I intially work up in 1/2 gr increments. Use a 1/2 gr dacron filler if the powder loading density is less than 85%.

Work up using 5 shot groups intitially while chronographing each load using a good solid bench rest and the target at 100 yards. If you think you've a good load then verify it's consistancy by loading that load up for 1 ten shot group or 3 five shot groups. If all goes well then if you really want to know load up 3 ten shot groups or 5 five shot groups. If you are then satisfied with it's accuracy you have really achieved something with cast bullets. Be advised that it is not easy to obtain consistent 2 moa out of a 10" twist '06 with cast bullets at 2200 fps. However, it is not really all that difficult if you do the right things.

Caveat; you with your rifle must be able to consistently shoot 1 moa with good jacketed bullet loads. If you can only shoot 2 moa consistently with good jacketed loads do not expect the same or better with cast bullets at 2200 fps.

Larry Gibson

Bret4207
07-08-2009, 05:42 PM
lead-1, try this- Snap a few gas checks onto the base and just start then into the sizer to secure them. Then push them out without sizing them. I won;t take much to secure them. I shot GC's applied by hand for years with no big troubles. Then either hand lube or tumble lube and stick those boolits in front of 13.0 gr Red Dot. Thats a nice mild load that will at least get you started.

HORNET
07-08-2009, 07:26 PM
lead-1, if you decide to smoke that mold again the long BBQ lighter is a very good idea. Before you use it, preheat that mold. One of the more common combustion products of many materials is water. The vapor can condense on a relatilely cool mold surface and prevent the carbon layer from the smoke from adhering. That will cause it to come off the surface in splotches and causes the voids that you saw under the soot. Please also note that a thick coating can cause problems due to size reduction in critical areas. All you need is a thin layer, almost transparent. Usually you can skip this after the mold has been used a few times.

lead-1
07-08-2009, 07:54 PM
Larry, as far as the 2200 fps goes I would also be happy with a 1900'er that shot well. When I decided to try this venture I was only expecting handgun velocities as I said before, I figured same lead as handguns, same velocities.

Bret, I will fit some boolits with gas checks without sizing them, just leave them at the .311 range. It won't be a problem as I had fit some gas checks on some of the 170 grainers that I was shooting just to see how they fit and how snug they were, I thought they would fall right back off and wanted to see for myself.


HORNET, I think I will just lightly brush out the mold and try it again as is. I wish I had a camera so I could show the results for some more helpful criticism. When my son went to Colorado a few weeks ago he took his camera, darn him.

snaggdit
07-08-2009, 09:10 PM
I need to correct what I told you about opening up your sizer. I used cast boolits with valve cmpd on them. Don't know if jacketed would do the same or not. They typically run .308 already, so you want larger boolits for the cmpd to have something to work against. Welcome to the addiction, BTW!

SciFiJim
07-08-2009, 11:12 PM
I increased the size of several of my Lee push through sizers by pushing some boolits through with fine valve grinding cpnd. Took about 30 pushes to get +.001 but YMMV. I checked every 10 or so. Since Lee doesn't make every possibility, this allows you to custom one for your needs. It really wasn't hard and only took me about 15 minutes each.

snaggdit, can you elaborate on this? Do you push the same boolit through multiple times or a new boolit each time? If the same boolit, do you apply more compound after each time? Do you follow it up by polishing it with something? This looks like something a non-machinist (like me) can do. Any additional info would be helpful. Maybe post it as a new thread. I will watch for your response.

lead-1
07-09-2009, 12:25 AM
snaggdit, I will try the cast boolits and compound if these new boolits don't work out quite right as is. I would think that some compound on a few of the .308 steel jacket military bullets would work but thanks for the clarification.

Bret4207
07-09-2009, 07:32 AM
On opening a Lee sizer- I use the cleaning rd and abrasive cloth method. Just wrap a bit of abrasive cloth on a rod and insert it in the die. Roll the die back and forth on your thigh, switching end for end every 50 rolls. I opened a .329 to .332+ in either 200 rolls IIRC.

On smoking- I avoid it if I can. It insulates the mould from the boolits heat making the mould run cooler, it decreases the diameter of the boolit and generally is a mess to deal with IMO. Anytime I think I need to smoke a mould I clean it real well and then get it good and hot. Almost always fixes the problems. I would never smoke a new mould. You're fixing something that may not be broke.

cbrick
07-09-2009, 11:47 AM
lead-1,

Bret is 110% correct on bullet BHN.

Too hard is more often than not worse for leading and accuracy than is too soft. Commercial bullet casters "hype" the term "hardcast" for the simple reason that "hard" bullets withstand the rigors of shipping better than do bullets of a proper BHN for the application. Period. Hardcast has nothing to do with what's better for the end user and wide spread use of the term "hardcast" pollutes the minds of purchasers of commercial cast bullets and results in a great deal of frustration (and leading) for new casters.

As Bret stated, the single most important factor in reducing leading and accuracy is very simply a bullet that fits "your" firearm properly. If it doesn't no amount of tinkering with alloys, water quenching or heat treating will do much to improve things.

You mentioned dirty looking spots on your bullets and thought perhaps it was from smoking the mould. That's doubtful, more likely it's from improperly fluxed and thus dirty alloy. As for smoking a mould I never do this anymore, haven't for years and if I ever had the thought to try it again I wouldn't get a candle or anything else waxy or oily anywhere near my moulds. If you have a properly cleaned well made mould there should be no need to ever smoke'em. If smoking helps you are simply covering up another problem.

Here are a couple of articles on alloys and heat treating WW alloy (great author by the way :mrgreen:)

Cast Bullet Alloys (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm)
Heat Treating WW Alloy (http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm)

Hope this helps get you started right right direction.

Rick

leftiye
07-09-2009, 06:47 PM
Great! Size them .310" or .311" to fit your throat (not groove) like R5R said. Actually, as large as they will slide into your rifle's throat (without pounding or forcing them in, or having them stick in the chamber). You can tape 400 or 600 grit paper to a dowel to lap out your sizing die also. Just get the fit right and turn it with a hand held drill. Check often as Lee dies are soft, and open up fast. Clean before checking if you use plug gauges as the grit will take up a thousandth or two and throw your measurement off.

lead-1
08-23-2009, 07:25 PM
OK guys, I shot the bullets that I cast with the lead that I had a problem with in .44's, I sized them at .308 and shot two groups with different loads and got like 8 plus inch groups at 50 yards. With some help from you all to understand a little more on the throat size and accuracy issue, I took the same bullets that were .310-.311, ALOXed them, set the gas checks and loaded the same loads as before but not sized. I had no leading out of the 10 rounds fired and the accuracy is coming around to stir my interest again, I also think that I can use the oddball lead mixture for these bullets and use the known WW for my .44 bullets.

The 5 shot group circled in black ink is 13g Red Dot under a 160g LEE bullet w/ALOX, it measured 1 1/4 inch center to center with one flier.
The 5 shot group circled in red marker is 16g Unique under a 160g LEE bullet w/ALOX, it measured 1 inch center to center with one flier.

Bret4207
08-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Good on you!!! Now you got a taste, it gets easier over time. Just don;t be me and get overconfident. That's a sure way to run into problems.

leadburner
08-24-2009, 10:49 AM
One thing.don't smoke your mold with a candle,it will leave a waxy film that can under size your boolits.Smoke them with a match or lighter,your'e looking for a carbon coating,not wax.

Echo
08-24-2009, 12:06 PM
Good on you, Lead-1! You are an inspiration to me to get off my dead butt and hit the range more often!