75 calber rifled slug for smooth bore

[amwdc]

ive been toying with idea and its been bothering the crap out of me that the round ball is the only thing there is bullet wise (other than buck and ball ,and shot ) that is for the big musket calibers its been done for modern shot guns for a smooth bore why not a smooth bore pb rifle or musket . Ive been saving to get a Brown Bess ships carbine from http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MSC.shtml and i don't reenact,i could (Hubberton battle field is only a couple towns over) i want something i can shoot over 30 yards accurately (i hunt deer ,bear ,ect) there had been an influx of people buying reproduction flintlock muskets most are reenactors,but im not :lol: .this is my idea
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/amwdc/slugdesing.jpg
can a 75 caliber rifled slug mold be custom made ?

[longbow]

For 30 yards a patched round ball should give decent accuracy and will weigh in at about 580 grs. I get about 4" at 50 yards using a 0.735" round ball in my 12 ga. and patching for a muzzleloader should do better (this is the size recommended for .75 cal.).

If you want something different, a 12 ga. hollow base slug could be used and paper patched to suit the bore if you are inclined. My Lyman casts at 0.705" and Rapine makes a mould that casts at about 0.730".

You could also look at the Brenneke concept and make a near bore size slug with attached wad. That should give good accuracy and is proven technology.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/web/pdf/ClassicMagnum12ga.pdf

This is a pretty easy mould to make.

If you decide to use a hollow base slug, it will have to be very nose heavy like a typical Foster. Not like your diagram.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Good morning
You can also play with all the miriade of elongated type slugs that are fired at critters via 12 bore..... BUT you are going to be hard pressed to beat the simple accuracy of the ROUND BALL. With load prep you can keep RB on a paper plate out to 70-80 yards. And more important to me is the RB will not fail to penetrate.
The hollow base slugs were developed because people started to choke smoothbore breachloader barrels for longer range patterns yet still wanted a large lead slug to lob at BIG critters up close. So the factory people gave them what they wanted. Hence the RB was discarded by loaders due to the problem of squeezing a .735 ball through a .69 choked stiff steel barrel (Damascas) and not causing it to split or crack. Smoothbore muzzleloaders just stayed with what works in a cylinder non rifled type tube..
Your Bess will not suffer from a choke so why inhibit your hunting potential with inferior hollow base slugs that will fail to penetrate at the worst possible moment. HB slugs are a pain to cast and without a little rifling in the barrel to spin them are no more accurate than a RB. Armies experimented for years and millions of shots trying to improve over the lowly RB out of muzzle loading smoothbores. But without rifling... there just is not much better projectile to be found. There are several "Traditional Muzzleloading " webs out there that are hangouts of some fine frontstuffing fellers that routinely do some real fine shooting with RB.
Head to the SHOTGUN forum and read the findings here. There may yet be a way to fin stabalize a sabot type projectile out of a smoothbore. The project awaits and is possible.
But yesterday morning in just 2 hours I cast up 9 different RB diameters and have all the ammo I will need to feed my muzzle loaders & 12 bore double for a long time to come. And the river bottom areas I hang out in just do not offer much to see beyond 35 maybe 50 yards.
Now wqhen I can find my camara I will post a couple of pictures of some old flinters I have been getting ready to start shooting again. Three need a kasanite treatment on the frizzens but that is all I see to get them going again. This moving stuff always leaves me wondering what I did with to many items. Good thing my Krag is long enough to be easily spotted...
Which reminds me I need to get the Rifled Mossy barrel unwrapped and see what RB will do out of that.
But it is all fun and more important you will be learning about the 10 bore .... I am looking at a 80 caliber club butted flinter standing in the corner that has a Wm. Richards lock with roller... British proofs and a set trigger on a 39.5 barreled Cherry stock smoothy that just awaits to be fired. But it is one of the 3 waiting for the kasanite treatment. Needs a ramrod also. But then the rod off my Bess should do just fine.

[tommygirlMT]

First of all, rifled slugs are swaged not cast and anything above about 50-cal in the swaging world usually requires a hydrolic press a manual press simply doesn't provide enough pressure. So if you really want to use a "rifled" slug you are looking at a total cost for both press and custom swage dies that will cost you as much as a cheap compact imported brand new car. I should point out at this point that the main purpose of rifling on shotgun slugs is to allow them to more easily squish down in a gun with a choke - you don't have this problem with a cylinder bore musket, there is no need to use a rifled slug. A standard cast bullet design with lube grooves will do just fine and substantially reduce cost.

Secondly the biggest problem you going to run into is finding someone to make the mold for you. Molds that cast bullets larger than about 68-caliber usually require special oversize mold blocks. On a standard mold block the amount of mold material between the two handle slots is usually 3/4 of an inch or less. Exra wide mold blocks are made by some mold cutters on an exception basis but the mold cutters who do them are few and far between and usually they do charge extra for cuts requiring the extra large blocks. In addition you also run into the issue that not all mold cutters are will to cut hollow base mold designs and those that do usually charge extra for them. Long story short there are only three commercial mold cutters I know of that will cut both extra large blocks and hollow base designs NEI, Brooks Moulds, and that outfit out of Australia that I can't remember the name of for the life of me. I have had custom molds cut for me by NEI. They will do the job and do it well but the cost is going to be extrobinate due to their custom cherry cutting fees and the lead time for them to do such a custom order will nock you over. I've never had a "custom" mold cut for me by Brooks Moulds, I've only bought his standard designs for BPCR. The place out of Australia is a pleasure to do business with he will make a good mold, make it right, and do it for a more reasonable price and in a more reasonable time frame then NEI - but doing business half way across the world does make for some comfort and funds transfer issues. In any case it's going to cost you hundreds of dollars to have such a custom mold made. Is it really worth it to you or not?

If you do take the leap I would recommend the following set-up or similar:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=178&pictureid=1032



Lastly, why would you want to put plywood down your barrel ?!?!

[hamour]

Follow this link, he has just what you are looking for. I am sure dixie slugs will turn you on to a mould maker.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/

[northmn]

The Bess I had was accurate beyond 30 yards and would have sufficed with RB out to 75, whcih is a rasonable limit for any smoothbore. Some folks have been experimenting with RB in modern shotguns and finding them superior to the rifled slug. usually patched in a modern plastic wad. They are claimed far superior on dangerous game. As to deer and black bear, a round ball out of a 75 caliber is pretty effective. I quit shooting gongs with my Bess at BP shoots because it was destroying the setups (something heavy loaded maxi balls were not doing). Another thing on a Bess They had a collection of them at Fort William. Many had the cheek area dished out. I sold mine because I did not appreciate getting belted in the face by the too straight stock. Built a 12 Bore fowler and wish I would have never sold it.

Northmn

[amwdc]

thanks for the info missionary5155 and every one ive see what a 50 caliber caliber round ball can do to deer. I use a traditions fox river fifty to deer hunt i have some questions about ball size and mold, and load .what ball size to run though the Bess with a patch ,ive read that the red coats used an under sized ball so loading would be easier when the fouling started to build up after shooting volley,after volley. who sells a mold to cast for the brown bess .I here the common load for the brown bess is between 70- 100 grains i use 90 with my current muzzle loader ,im also curious to see what kind of damage buck and ball does on coyotes .And of course shot on tree rats .as for the ply wood i thought it would take fouling out from the previous shot ?

[northmn]

Check Track of the Wolf for molds. You likely will have to buy a Lyman. Typically they use a 735 with 015 patching. The military load for the Bess was a bit loose due to the differences in bore diameters back then as well as fouling considerations. Most smoothbores have gotten a bad rap from militarty loads (as have rifled muskets). I used to use 90-100 grains in my Bess. You can go heavier if you want. Another littel trick with a smoothbore like the Bess is to attach buckshot (or splitshot sinkers to a heavy piece of monofilament line. that will definitely damage coyotes. In the Revolution botht he British and Americans were gripping about the types of stuff loaded in the muskets like glass, nails etc.

Northmn

[FL-Flinter]

I concur with missionary5155, you won't find anything better than a round ball. I'm one of those to load round ball in modern cartridge guns that northmn speaks of and yes, they are far superior to any type of conical in a smoothbore. I put a 7/8oz factory load slug into a bore at very close range and it never penetrated the shoulder plate; flattened out and stopped w/o making anything more than an already mad hog even madder.

I loaded 0.715" round balls cast from WW alloy with card wads and a lubed cloth patch - could only be shot in true cylinder bore guns WITHOUT any choke. I ran them from a Stevens single shot fitted with rifle sights and the barrel shortened to about 26". They were very accurate and performance on deer & hogs was unlike anything else; shots taken at 35+ yds and you could hear the ball hit, nothing went more than 10yds after being hit and 98% dropped (more like slammed down) where they stood.

[Stonecrusher]

This idea has been used before. I scanned a page from a book on ammunition used at the Battle of Gettysburg, "Ready.Aim.Fire" by Dean Thomas, that shows some .69 shotgun slugs for smoothbore muskets that were found on battlefield. Can't tell from picture if they are hollow or solid based. Apparently they were used by North Carolina troops. It seems that they should have given comparable accuracy to foster slugs in a modern shotgun, but maybe they didn't perform very well and that would account for their use not being widespread.
14577

[northmn]

A minnie ball is very different from a slug. While hollow based only a smaller portion is hollowed and it tapered inward. A 12 gauge slug weighed in a 1 oz these weighed in considerably heavier. Something like 700 grains + or -. they must have been adaptd to the earlier 69 cal military musket.

Northmn

[Stonecrusher]

A minnie ball is very different from a slug. While hollow based only a smaller portion is hollowed and it tapered inward. A 12 gauge slug weighed in a 1 oz these weighed in considerably heavier. Something like 700 grains + or -. they must have been adaptd to the earlier 69 cal military musket.

Northmn

The minie type bullets such as shown as #28 in the picture would have been used in rifled .69 cal muskets such as converted 1816 or 1842 pattern, even in the .70 cal Belgian muskets that were imported in fairly large quantities during the war and should have weighed 730 grains. Items # 30-32 are not minie balls but were made for smoothbore muskets to increase accuracy over what was achieved by having .04" windage between the naked round ball and bore. Although you can't see if they are hollow base or not, they probably were so they could fly like a shuttlecock. Just like a modern forster type slug.
Just thought it was interesting. Something you don't see every day.

[masscaster]

The four on the left are Hollow Based, the four on the right are not. These were the solid based lighter weight Boolits/slugs of the time.
The four on the left, in comparison are Minies/HB Plug rounds.
Since 12 ga. is around .685 to .715 or larger depending on make and model, these were probably fired or cast for front stuffers.

[BAGTIC]

An historical aside. The Lewis and Clark expedition carried a 20 gauge smoothbore 'ball gun' for use as a 'stopper' for use on grizzly bears as their rifles proved ineffective. 'Ball guns' were essentially muskets, heavily built for the heaviest charges,

[1874Sharps]

AMWDC,

An interesting idea you have put forth, indeed. I realize you are speaking specifically about the projectile, but have you considered Pederoli's double rifle in 12 bore? It is heavy barreled and it is rifled with a twist for round ball.

[sepeteus]

Well,

I've been thinking the same few times.

I don't have musket, but one friend has French 1777 revolution type of smoothbore musket... He shoots .69 (17,5mm) round ball.

Could be very interesting to shoot some heavy slugs through the long smooth cylinder bore....

[475BH]

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=71

This company is all about shotguns, they should have something that could work for you.

[longbow]

Take look at my latest attached wad slug here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=75860

They are quite easy to make and so far are looking good. I do have to get some more shooting in and hope to do that this coming weekend.

No reason it wouldn't work in a muzzleloader.

Longbow