Another TC *********

[44man]

A friend brought over a Renegade .54 cap lock. We cast a pile of .535 balls and I got out patch material from .015" to .022". With some I got a perfect fit with .005" engraving on the ball at the bottom of the lands. Loading was normal and we used Pyrocrap RS because he can find it easy.
No groups at 50 at all with any combination and the steel pig at 100 never got a mark on it.
I kept looking for fired patches and found two that were perfect but all the rest, even with the same patch material were shredded and burned to a cinder.
I have never in my life seen patches burn and smolder on the ground after shooting hundreds of thousands of pyrocrap and BP loads.
Some shots at 50 were 16" off.
This is not the first TC that shot like this for other friends.
We need to try the Maxi Balls and REAL boolits yet but I do not expect much.
TC has taken barrels to a new height of junk.
The very first TC Hawkin would pack 5 shots into one ragged hole with both round ball and Maxi Ball.

[scb]

Unfortunate but not surprising. Their quality is right in the toilet.

[405]

A friend brought over a Renegade .54 cap lock. We cast a pile of .535 balls and I got out patch material from .015" to .022". With some I got a perfect fit with .005" engraving on the ball at the bottom of the lands. Loading was normal and we used Pyrocrap RS because he can find it easy.
No groups at 50 at all with any combination and the steel pig at 100 never got a mark on it.
I kept looking for fired patches and found two that were perfect but all the rest, even with the same patch material were shredded and burned to a cinder.
I have never in my life seen patches burn and smolder on the ground after shooting hundreds of thousands of pyrocrap and BP loads.
Some shots at 50 were 16" off.
This is not the first TC that shot like this for other friends.
We need to try the Maxi Balls and REAL boolits yet but I do not expect much.
TC has taken barrels to a new height of junk.
The very first TC Hawkin would pack 5 shots into one ragged hole with both round ball and Maxi Ball.

Sounds odd all right. With a good patched ball fit even a rusty pipe would shoot to 16" at 50yds. Seems like you could feel a "lumpy", wacky or rough bore when running the ball down? The ONLY time I've seen guns do that (regardless of the type) is when they had a crooked or bent barrel :shock:

[frontier gander]

i had a .50 renegade that was excellent. May try pyrodex P. If the patches look like they do, maybe the lube on them stinks. My GPR used to shoot 120gr 2f goex with .018 pillow tick with crisco/elk tallow as lube. No issues there.

[44man]

i had a .50 renegade that was excellent. May try pyrodex P. If the patches look like they do, maybe the lube on them stinks. My GPR used to shoot 120gr 2f goex with .018 pillow tick with crisco/elk tallow as lube. No issues there.
Young country lube, my best.
The early TC's were fabulous but the later ones are jack handles.
I sold my TC years ago because the stock was not made to fit a human but the thing was super accurate. Mine was one of the first made. The first renegades were also good. Then all at once, none will shoot.

[44man]

Sounds odd all right. With a good patched ball fit even a rusty pipe would shoot to 16" at 50yds. Seems like you could feel a "lumpy", wacky or rough bore when running the ball down? The ONLY time I've seen guns do that (regardless of the type) is when they had a crooked or bent barrel :shock:
Barrel is straight and it loads smooth. A tight cleaning patch is smooth. I think something is wrong with the steel.
A friend bought one with the easy start barrel and it would not hold paper at 50 with anything. He sent it back and they said the key slots were loose, pounded them tight with no change. He got the barrel replaced after a lot of screaming on the phone and it shot worse then the first one. I glass bedded it with no change.
I take my home made .54 Hawkin down and punch one hole at 50 with 5 shots and hit steel chickens off hand at 200 meters. That is what the original TC would do.
So what the hell did they screw up?

[Geraldo]

Barrel is straight and it loads smooth. A tight cleaning patch is smooth. I think something is wrong with the steel.
A friend bought one with the easy start barrel and it would not hold paper at 50 with anything. He sent it back and they said the key slots were loose, pounded them tight with no change. He got the barrel replaced after a lot of screaming on the phone and it shot worse then the first one. I glass bedded it with no change.
I take my home made .54 Hawkin down and punch one hole at 50 with 5 shots and hit steel chickens off hand at 200 meters. That is what the original TC would do.
So what the hell did they screw up?

I have no idea. I've got a significant statistical sample of TCs--from 1970s rifles to more recently made (even a couple of QLAs) and none of them shoot that badly. In fact, they all shoot well. The 1:48" barrels don't shoot PRB as well as TC 1:66" or GM barrels, but nothing like what you're describing. The 1:48" barrels shoot very well with REALs or Maxis, depending on the individual barrel.

I do know that I don't like Pyro at all and that there is no way I could get that patch/ball combo down any of my .54s without a hammer.

[mooman76]

That's a shame. They used to be well know for good out of the box BP guns! Even CVA's shoot much better than that.

[405]

Agreed! That one is hard to figure. If the bore is smooth or at least feels smooth then not much else could account for such errant flight... except a crooked barrel (or bore). Sounds odd but an experienced "feel" down the bore with a snug patch can detect very, very small dimensional differences or surface flaws. If it feels smooth and not "lumpy" then very likely it IS smooth and would show a fairly good air gauge.

Sometimes I suppose it would be possible for the barrel to appear straight measured or judged down the flats but a crooked bore would be much more difficult to detect. Also, just popped into to my head, any possibility the twist is unusually fast? I know a long shot but hey... this is a tough one to get a handle on.

Funny thing, the ONLY muzzleloader I was never ever able to get to shoot to some acceptable accuracy was of all things a TC Renegade .54. That thing used up a lot of my time and energy. Thank goodness it wasn't mine. I finally discovered it had a bent barrel. Gave it back to my friend and said sorry but this one is a tent stake for certain. Other crooked shooters (all non muzzleloaders) that couldn't be made to shoot had flaws with the bores... most times it was severe runout between chamber and bore where the chamber was reamed at an angle to the bore! :confused:

[arcticap]

We cast a pile of .535 balls and I got out patch material from .015" to .022". With some I got a perfect fit with .005" engraving on the ball at the bottom of the lands. Loading was normal and we used Pyrocrap RS because he can find it easy....
....I kept looking for fired patches and found two that were perfect but all the rest, even with the same patch material were shredded and burned to a cinder.
I have never in my life seen patches burn and smolder on the ground after shooting hundreds of thousands of pyrocrap and BP loads.
Some shots at 50 were 16" off.


Maybe some TC's don't like tight loads.
And for a barrel that's described as loading normal and being smooth, nothing seems to explain what happened to the patches.

[waksupi]

Maybe some TC's don't like tight loads.
And for a barrel that's described as loading normal and being smooth, nothing seems to explain what happened to the patches.

Now, there is a good thought. Might be like the old original ML's, that loaded without pounding the ball down the barrel.

[fishhawk]

well no idea how much powder your useing either. makes no diff if you use 100 gr or 50 gr you blow the patch any acurasy is gone out the window. got a 45 green mountain barrel that will blow the patch at 45 gr of FFFg and not at 40 gr at the 45 gr charge i can't keep 3 shots on a 8 inch pie plate off a rest at 25 yds. my advise is drop the charge and or try differnt patch lube. steve k

[hamour]

I bought the .58 GM bbl and a rifled .62 caliber GM bbl (GM smooth bore rifled by ed rayl) They both shoot amazingly accurate with RB's.

I hunt exclusively with these two calibers and RB now.

So pick up a GM .58! It will ventilate!

Sorry to hear of your problems.

[725]

I would certainly try a much looser patch/ball set, loads between 60 gr - 90 gr, ensure consistant loading and not powder crushing ramrod pressures, and then move on to the R.E.A.L. boolits if all these failed. Too hot a load can just ruin accuracy. Around 70 - 75 gr. works great and is a good hunting load. If after all, it still fails to perform, I'd send the barrel to Bob Hoyt and have him make a smooth bore (shotgun) barrel from it and then go ahead and order a drop in Green Mt. round baller barrel. A pain in the neck, for sure, but I know those Green Mts round ballers are top shelf.

[PAT303]

I have a .54 with a green river rifle works barrel on it and it doesn't like .530 or .535 balls but shoots one hole groups with .520 balls and .020 patch.I have never had any luck with tight fitting loads in any of my ML's,my PH musketoon is a case in point,.570 minnies that fall out of the bore if you point it too the ground shoot inside the 9 ring all day without cleaning. Pat

[44man]

Well the original TC Hawken I had was a .50 and it used .500 balls with a .010" patch or the Maxi Ball. My .54 has an H&H barrel and will shoot a .535" ball with a .022" patch or a .540" ball and a .010" patch. My flinter .45 Douglas shoots a .450" ball and .012" patch.
We did try smaller balls in the newer TC's and they were worse. The other easy start barrel will not shoot ANYTHING, balls or any boolit made for the gun.
Inspecting and measuring the entire inside of the bore shows nothing amiss. I might have to measure the twist but it looks slow, 1 in 48".
But what causes a patch to catch fire and burn up? I use Young Country in my .54 with 100 gr of pyrocrap, then go to 120 gr for 200 yards. I use 100 gr of Swiss FFG or 115 gr of Goex, patches recovered are all perfect, accuracy is out of sight. I would think the TC would shoot 80 to 100 gr just fine.
Here is what mine does with 115 gr of Goex FFG, .020" patch with an added cigarette paper, .535" ball and Young Country lube. Five shots at 50 yards.

[Maven]

Like .44man, I've owned a few very accurate T/C sidelocks: a .45cal. Cherokee and a .45cal. Hawken with both the original (28", 1:48 twist) and the 32", 1:66 twist. These rifles were made in the early to mid '70's and were extremely accurate with both .440" RB's, Lee REAL's, and T/C Maxi-Balls. (The conicals were only used in the 1:48 twist bbls.) Fit and finish were excellent and there were no problems with either rifle, period! Alas, the stocks were a poor fit for me for offhand shooting (but great from the bench!) and I've since sold them.

[fishhawk]

it can be as simple as switching to a differnt patch lube. all the front stuffers i have shoot just fine with crisco as patch lube but try useing it in the GM barrel and forget it that gun WILL not shoot with crisco switched to bore butter or the ox-yoke wonderlube patches and it shoots! just because lube works in one doesn't mean it will in another. try it what you got to loose? steve k

[Maven]

fishhawk, Interestingly enough, I've had terrible luck with Crisco-dipped patches (6 parts Crisco : 1 part beeswax) in two otherwise very accurate rifles. In fact, I deep sixed those patches last night. The only thing I did differently was use a different patch lube (Crisco) and my groups enlarged significantly. Btw, this result is as repeatable as it is disappointing.

[fishhawk]

so then as you see lube does affect the guns accurasy i think there are many things he can try to get it to shoot, lube being one of them another is the amount of powder had a friend that had a TC and was useing pyrodex couldn't hit the side of a barn if standing inside with it. went out with him and gave him a pound of real BP in FFg he tried it after 5 shots he took the can of pyrodex and threw it in the dumpster. steve k

[44man]

it can be as simple as switching to a differnt patch lube. all the front stuffers i have shoot just fine with crisco as patch lube but try useing it in the GM barrel and forget it that gun WILL not shoot with crisco switched to bore butter or the ox-yoke wonderlube patches and it shoots! just because lube works in one doesn't mean it will in another. try it what you got to loose? steve k
All were tried with the easy load TC. Even went to Blue and Gray plus BPCR lube.
Wonder lube and bore butter are about the same and just open groups a tad over Young Country. Hardly enough to measure but Wonder lube, etc, dries out on stored patches or boolits.
Young country is all natural, I know what is in it but won't tell. Be assured it does not catch fire unless something else is wrong. The cloth is burning.
Some lubes that work great NEED a bore wipe with a damp patch between shots or you will not load another, Ballistol is one.
I have shot every lube ever dreamed of in all these years and probably have more here right now then you ever heard off. But I can say that Young Country has always proven to be the best.
There is no way a lube change will make these guns shoot.
You are correct that lube is important and if you read all of my posts in cast boolits and the handgun section, you will see how much I think lube tests will change accuracy. So be assured, no lube has not been tried.

[44man]

so then as you see lube does affect the guns accurasy i think there are many things he can try to get it to shoot, lube being one of them another is the amount of powder had a friend that had a TC and was useing pyrodex couldn't hit the side of a barn if standing inside with it. went out with him and gave him a pound of real BP in FFg he tried it after 5 shots he took the can of pyrodex and threw it in the dumpster. steve k
When I had the easy load TC here I used pyrocrap (you can see what I think of it! :mrgreen:) Goex FFG and FFFG, Swiss, Elephant, Schuetzen, Clear shot, Triple Seven and even my old Dupont. (yes, I still have some.)
Hey, I am WAAAAAY ahead of you! :drinks: I would not post after just one trial.
Just look at the drop in after market barrels for TC muzzle loaders. Then the barrels made to fit Contenders and Encores. Guys make a lot of money to make TC's shoot! :Fire:

[EOD3]

I know this is a stupid question but: Are you using "force" to get the ball/patch started at the muzzle? :???:

[44man]

I know this is a stupid question but: Are you using "force" to get the ball/patch started at the muzzle? :???:
No, it takes one pop with my hand to seat them, no damage to the ball.
Here is a .535" driven in with .020" patch and pulled. also a .450" ball with .015" pulled from the .45.
My home made starters look like this too.

[StarMetal]

Jim,

Have you tried a harder ball little smaller then bore diameter and thicker patch? I've seen where some fellows shooting with a bore size Pb ball and thin patch get better accuracy with the above mentioned.

Joe

[44man]

Jim,

Have you tried a harder ball little smaller then bore diameter and thicker patch? I've seen where some fellows shooting with a bore size Pb ball and thin patch get better accuracy with the above mentioned.

Joe
Yes, nowhere near the accuracy I get and patches will be destroyed. I do not want cloth taking the rifling by itself.
The TC problem is with the gun itself and nothing you can load will work.
You are correct that a bore size ball of pure lead and a thinner patch is better. I used a .540", .500" and a .450" ball for competition most times but they can get hard to load when hunting.
Wes and Dan Kindig would drop a small hole gage in my muzzle, then sell me a mold to fit. BORE SIZE!
I have built a pile of Lyman Great Plains rifles for many of the guys I worked with and every one shot ragged one hole groups at 50 yards. All of my home made rifles shot tiny groups.
Been at this game a long, long time! :Fire::Fire: At least 53 years!

[405]

44 man,
This is like dejavu all over again or parallel universe or something :mrgreen:
First it was the skewfire .54 Renegade... having been thru nearly an identical scenario with one 20 years ago.
Then you mentioned an H&H barrel on a .54 Hawken you built!! Good grief. I haven't heard anyone mention an H&H barrel in years. The first quality ml I ever put together was based around an H&H barrel and Melton lock/trigger- about 1975. Don't even remember what ever came of the H&H company?? Like yours, mine is a ragged hole shooter at 50 yards. Kinda fancy type Hawken with the figured maple but has been excellent gun from the very first shot. Lots of miles lugging it around hunting woods/mtns. pic below

[44man]

44 man,
This is like dejavu all over again or parallel universe or something :mrgreen:
First it was the skewfire .54 Renegade... having been thru nearly an identical scenario with one 20 years ago.
Then you mentioned an H&H barrel on a .54 Hawken you built!! Good grief. I haven't heard anyone mention an H&H barrel in years. The first quality ml I ever put together was based around an H&H barrel and Melton lock/trigger- about 1975. Don't even remember what ever came of the H&H company?? Like yours, mine is a ragged hole shooter at 50 yards. Kinda fancy type Hawken with the figured maple but has been excellent gun from the very first shot. Lots of miles lugging it around hunting woods/mtns. pic below
A man after my own heart. But I have something not many have today, a Bob Roller lock! 8-)
That is one nice rifle too.

[arcticap]

The problem with the patches still hasn't been explained.
The best that I can come up with is this:

Every rifle barrel is different. Many production barrels don't like loads that are too tight because the rifling is too shallow to hold the excess material when a tigher ball with a thick patch is loaded. The numbers don't add up to fitting properly and the patch material simply gives.
If the only ball that is being tried is a .535 and the .530 (or even a .520) isn't being tried, then to classify the barrel as a *** isn't honestly being objective.
Just because something works in 10 guns, doesn't mean that it will also work in the 11th.
That's because the patch phenomenon hasn't been sufficiently explained.
The fact that the numbers add up to vastly overfilling the depth of the grooves indicates that it may be affecting the patches and accuracy. TC guns nowdays may only have rifling depth of .006 or .007 and not .010 or .012.
Also, a target load can be very low velocity out of a 1 in 48" twist, which behaves differently than a 1 in 66" twist which often requires more velocity.
Lastly, if I was loading such a tight load I would need a mallet to tap it in which is what many chunk gun shooters do when loading tight loads. And many of them use special teflon patching.
It could be that the balls being used aren't measuring what they're supposed to or aren't pure lead, or that the patches are not made out of 100% cotton.
Are these commercially made balls and patches?
I'm trying to brainstorm because there has been no indication of a problem with the rifling or the barrel besides accuracy.
In some guns, it's better to simply load a .530 ball with a .015 patch and with 45 - 50 grains of powder and to let the ball just glide down the rifling like train wheels on a rail road track do. That means without the rifling being engraved onto the ball so deeply from using an overthick patch.
Switch powder and adjust the charge very incrementally if necessary.
Test at closer range.
Then if the barrel doesn't shoot, then it doesn't shoot.
Then have the owner send the barrel back to TC for accuracy testing and replacement at their discretion. They offer that service for free all of the time, and they will properly measure & gauge that barrel.
Then everyone will know that everything possible was tried in order to get that barrel to shoot to its fullest potential. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

All has already been tried. Smaller balls and all patches. TC has not changed rifling depth either since the first ones but something WAS changed.
I cast the balls and have a pile of patch material, so no, nothing is bought.
Loads from 40 to 100 gr were tried. Scott wants to hunt deer with it, not target shoot.
We have not tried the Maxi in this one yet but I never had a problem with either in my original. The Easy start Dave has would not keep the Maxi on paper at 50 and the replacement barrel was worse.
They did something but I do not know what.
I scrounged around looking for targets and I can not find the RB targets from my original TC but I found a 3 shot group from it with the Maxi Ball. Shot at 50 yards. The RB target was the same size. The other target is from my Hawken at 100 yards, 5 shots, all open sights from both guns.
I dropped a deer on a dead, leaping and bounding run at 125 yards with my original TC but would not trust a newer one past 25.

[frontier gander]

maybe something with the tang? I had a .54 cva mountain rifle that would clover leaf at 100 yards ( ok 2 out of 3 shots would actually clip eachother) and one day i went back out and couldnt do better than 6" groups. I found my tang screw had loosened up slightly.

Muzzleloaders can easily take 5-10 years off your life trying to get them to shoot.

[Geraldo]

Muzzleloaders can easily take 5-10 years off your life trying to get them to shoot.

It's worth it, though.

44man,

Whatever is wrong, I'm hooked. Do you have another stock to try it out on? If not, you can always send it to me and I'll test in on one of mine for you. I can always use more frustration...[smilie=b:

[longbow]

Maybe a silly question but is it possible there is a slight taper to the bore ~ larger at the muzzle?

If it is gentle enough you might not notice especially if short starting the ball.

Possibly poor manufacture or possibly wear at the muzzle. I have seen worn and even oval muzzles years ago from people using fiberglass ram rods. Didn't take long to do the damage.

Slugging with an oversize ball should tell you quick because once engraved in a clean bore it should slide down loose. If not then there is something wrong with the barrel.

I had a Remington Zouave many years ago that just wouldn't shoot anything well, Minie or patch round ball. It turned out to have some chatter marks in the bore about 1/2 way down. Lapping took care of them then it shot okay.

Longbow

[piwo]

Maybe a silly question but is it possible there is a slight taper to the bore ~ larger at the muzzle?

Longbow

Mine are quite the opposite. Tighter at the muzzle then the rest. Tough loading the first 2 inches, then much easier.

[44man]

Scott took it home to clean but I will slug it when he brings it back. I need to measure the twist too.
The stock is OK and all is tight. When I worked with Dave's rifle I gave up and bedded the whole rifle, tang and all but it never shot any different.
When he sent it back I put a small center punch mark under the barrel so we could see if they actually would replace it. They did but it shot worse then the first barrel.
I even thought the bore was too smooth so I etched it with no change. I played with that thing for 2 months and gave up.
Kind of ticks a guy off when one of the old CVA rifles with the Spanish barrel that was rifled with wood chisels by little tiny guys will shoot circles around a TC! :mrgreen: I have one of those cheap Spanish Kentucky pistols that puts TC to shame. This thing was rifled by pushing rocks through it. [smilie=1:
I never expected to have another as bad but had misgivings when he took it out of the case.
I think the only way to fix it is to get an after market barrel.
By the way, a friend in Ohio had one of the first TC Hawken's he bought when I bought mine. It grouped like mine but would not shoot to the sights. The barrel was bent pretty bad so I set up my wood "V" blocks and using a large "C" clamp, straightened it out. I brought it right in and it shot super.
I have to wonder if they didn't change steel and it is so hard it "RINGS" like a tuning fork? It could be uneven hardness all along the barrel too. If Scott buys a different barrel I might heat this whole barrel red hot and let it cool to try again, what is there to lose?

[6pt-sika]

I got rid of my TC ML *** !

Mine is a TC Encore PRo Hunter stainless barrel !

This was supposed to be my Sika ML along with the Pro Hunter 12 gauge slug barrel for use just at the Refuge in Maryland .

Well the 12 gauge slug barrel is brutal because the gun is so light and the ML barrel didn't suit me because it needed to be swabbed between shots to shoot it's best .

So yesterday someone on Gunbroker purchased my ML barrel !

All that I have left in the TC line is my Encore Pro Hunter with the stainless 338 Federal barrel . And if I'm lucky someone else will buy that one on Gunbroker as well !

[I Haines]

44man,

Try pushing a patched ball down the barrel and then pulling it. See if the rifleing has already cut the patch. IH

[curator]

A poor patch/ball combination can sometimes be made to shoot accurately by loading a filler on top of the powder charge. When a student brings a rifle that just won't shoot any combination accurately I have them load with a ball a "spit" patch over a charge of (1.5X caliber in inches) and a half-measure of cream of wheat. The C.O.W. acts as a gas seal preventing blowby. Often this makes the gun shoot accurately regardless of patch tightness. I would try this before declaring the gun as worthless. Most patch lubes are way too slick for my T/C rifles. They all prefer either teflon or Dutch Shultz's dry lube, and a tight ball/patch combination.

[405]

curator,
While adding an over-powder wad won't answer the riddle as to why the Renegade in question won't shoot, it may very well get it to shoot better. Good point!

Years ago I heard and read of old timers using various over-powder wad materials in their patched roundball muzzleloaders. My favorite story was about using paper wasp nest material as an over powder wad. Some still use it I think. Seemed to work for me but quit using it because availability was hit or miss. Some time after that I tried several things. One that worked as well as any and was of a material that could be obtained in large, consistent quantities was thick dense wool felt. I just take an arch punch of correct size and whack out a bag full now and then. The punches also work for various over powder card wads for BPCR loads.

In most cases the over-powder wad seems to help accuracy but may depend on how the stars line up any particular day. I believe I get the absolute best accuracy out of my patched roundball loads by using a felt over-powder wad. The differences are small but appear to be real.

[44man]

OK, thanks guys. I have to wait for Scott to get back from vacation. I have Ballistol patches and is the one thing I forgot to try.