Small Game Loads in the .45/70

[beagle]

I have always read that early soldiers on the western plains used their trapdoors for both small game and deer, buffalo and antelope sized game to suplement their beans, hardtack and "sowbelly" rations they were issued.

This practice has alway intrigued me.

I have my reservations as to a full bore load from a .45/70 used on either a rabbit or sage hen. I know it's been done but looks like an overkill to me.

I also know that round balls were used and at one time, Lyman marketed a "collar button" design for a .45/70 and other large bore .45s.

Now, I've messed with round balls in the .45/70. One, two and three ball loads and could see where they would be useful.

I've "armed" myself with a sigle cavity "collar button" mould (Lymans #457130) and intend to so some testing along the lines of a small game load.

Now, I know this will be with smokeless and not "holy black" but this is the way I'll go.

I often wonder several things. Did early soldiers have access to collar button type moulds and round ball moulds? I know that reloading outfits were issued to the troop/company sized units in those days. I wonder just how much loading went on in those days and I also wonder if loads of this type were ever used.

From reading, it appears that the Army was blessed with huge quantities of arsenal loaded .45/70 ammo to the point where they couldn't shoot it all up and much of the outdated ammo was given to buffalo hunters who used every drop as that was money to them.

Any comments along these lines would be appreciated./beagle

[Lloyd Smale]

ive played alot with a single round ball or even a lighter normal bullet like a 340 with 3 grains of bullseye

[45 2.1]

John-
PM me your e-mail address and i'll send you a good trapdoor type small game load. I used it for a couple of summers/falls shooting squirrels.

The Army had access to a lot of Civil War pistol ammo packets which they broke down and used to reload fired cases for practice and for pot hunting.

[JeffinNZ]

How about paper patching a .45ACP bullet? I bet it would work great.

[Thumbcocker]

I have also read that they issued shot loads for .45-70's for foraging.

[lifeon2]

4521 could I get that load data as well?

[Catshooter]

<--------- See my user name. :)

I can tell you from experience that a .45 cast 200 grain boolit moving at about 1000 feet will poke a finger-sized hole right through small game.




Cat

[mroliver77]

I have a 452423 single cav that drops boolits like .455. I beagled it to drop .458 and use a soft alloy. They shoot very well in the .45/70 over a small charge of unique or Bulls Eye. Very easy on evrything and fun fun fun. I havent had a chance to put one through a critter yet.
Jay

[Leftoverdj]

I've messed with this some. Best results were with .490 RB forced through a .460 Lee sizer. I seated them flush over light charges of the very fast pistol powders and smeared a little lube around the case mouth. Squirrel head accuracy at 25 yards, hopeless at 50 yards. Tried some .45 sabots with .38 bullets and got nowhere.

I've a notion that patched .454 RBs might do OK, but did not have any on hand and am not curious enough to buy any. Would like to hear the results if anyone else tries it.

[DLCTEX]

I have a mold for the Ruger Old Army that casts .457 that I'll have to play with.

[JDL]

I've used a .45 cal. muzzleloader for squirrel hunting with good results so I sought a similar set up with my .45-70. I tried some .457" balls with a light load of Red Dot and while the accuracy at close range wasn't too bad, it left a lot of unburned powder in the bore. Bullseye may give better results but, I haven't got a round tuit yet.
JDL

[BABore]

My 462-210 boolits with 45 2.1's load. Does sub inch at 50 yards.

[44man]

HEE, HEE, I love it! :Fire::Fire: Big guns for little animals is fun but better make head shots if you want meat. Them boolits are as big as what you shoot.
Many years ago I hunted squirrels with a .36 flintlock. I HAD to make head shots. No way with a gray but I killed a pile of fox squirrels because they held still long enough. Some were 100 feet at the top of huge hickory trees. I had to lay on my back to shoot straight up.
Never forget the time I was pheasant hunting and came upon a sitting rabbit. Pulled my .44 and aimed for the end of his nose. I did get to eat the back legs! :mrgreen:
I read about "barking" squirrels one time. I got the chance one day and shot the tree under the poor thing with my .44 mag. Took off all the hair on it's belly, stunned it so I kept trying each time he moved. Made a mess out of it so I had to actually shoot it to kill it. I got a little meat. Never again, too cruel.
Always wanted to shoot some round balls, etc from my 45-70 and .45. So keep it coming, sounds like fun.

[Icorps1970]

Must be very careful with low density loading of ANY smokeless powder.
Light loads of smokeless as are a major cause of damage to BP cartridge guns and sometimes the shooter.

Dan

[45 2.1]

I read about "barking" squirrels one time. I got the chance one day and shot the tree under the poor thing with my .44 mag. Took off all the hair on it's belly, stunned it so I kept trying each time he moved. Made a mess out of it so I had to actually shoot it to kill it. I got a little meat. Never again, too cruel.
Always wanted to shoot some round balls, etc from my 45-70 and .45. So keep it coming, sounds like fun.

Your supposed to shoot them under the head area. I know that works fine as i've killed quite a few that way with a 45-70. They come out of the tree with a little blood coming out of their eyes, ears and mouth. I shoot them thru the ribcage also with no loss of edible meat.

[BABore]

Must be very careful with low density loading of ANY smokeless powder.
Light loads of smokeless as are a major cause of damage to BP cartridge guns and sometimes the shooter.

Dan

There are methods around this. I learned this from 45 2.1 and will not post it on the open forum. I'll leave that up to him.

[StarMetal]

HEE, HEE, I love it! :Fire::Fire: Big guns for little animals is fun but better make head shots if you want meat. Them boolits are as big as what you shoot.
Many years ago I hunted squirrels with a .36 flintlock. I HAD to make head shots. No way with a gray but I killed a pile of fox squirrels because they held still long enough. Some were 100 feet at the top of huge hickory trees. I had to lay on my back to shoot straight up.
Never forget the time I was pheasant hunting and came upon a sitting rabbit. Pulled my .44 and aimed for the end of his nose. I did get to eat the back legs! :mrgreen:
I read about "barking" squirrels one time. I got the chance one day and shot the tree under the poor thing with my .44 mag. Took off all the hair on it's belly, stunned it so I kept trying each time he moved. Made a mess out of it so I had to actually shoot it to kill it. I got a little meat. Never again, too cruel.
Always wanted to shoot some round balls, etc from my 45-70 and .45. So keep it coming, sounds like fun.

I shot a squirrel with my 45 Colt Marlin Cowboy rifle using a RCBS 255 gr SWC over 9 grs of Unique. Shot him dead center through the ribs and all it did was put a 45 cal hole through him and didn't ruin anything.

Joe

[JesterGrin_1]

This info I found on the OT Web sight.

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
TiteGroup 7.0 908 12.5 3.0
8.0 992 12.3 7
9.0 1071 16.2 4
10.0 1143 9.2 2.2
11.0 1227 8.7 1.73

I have also thought of some type of light boolit to shoot from a 45-70 and also looking for info on the LEE Mould .457 for the Ruger Old Army Black Powder to use in the 45-70.

[44man]

There are methods around this. I learned this from 45 2.1 and will not post it on the open forum. I'll leave that up to him.
Very true and is why I never fooled with it. Easier and safer to use a smaller caliber.

[NHlever]

HEE, HEE, I love it! :Fire::Fire: Big guns for little animals is fun but better make head shots if you want meat. Them boolits are as big as what you shoot.
Many years ago I hunted squirrels with a .36 flintlock. I HAD to make head shots. No way with a gray but I killed a pile of fox squirrels because they held still long enough. Some were 100 feet at the top of huge hickory trees. I had to lay on my back to shoot straight up.
Never forget the time I was pheasant hunting and came upon a sitting rabbit. Pulled my .44 and aimed for the end of his nose. I did get to eat the back legs! :mrgreen:
I read about "barking" squirrels one time. I got the chance one day and shot the tree under the poor thing with my .44 mag. Took off all the hair on it's belly, stunned it so I kept trying each time he moved. Made a mess out of it so I had to actually shoot it to kill it. I got a little meat. Never again, too cruel.
Always wanted to shoot some round balls, etc from my 45-70 and .45. So keep it coming, sounds like fun.

I was woodchuck hunting, roaming the small fields here in NH with my "to be" brother in law years ago. I was using my Marlin 30-30 as a two shot with 110 hp's. As we crossed a very small field, a woodchuck suddenly started running right down the top of the stone wall bordering the field. Since there was a good hill behind the wall, I swung, and fired at him. The chuck flipped up in the air, and came down right there. When I picked up the chuck, there was a sliver of stone driven right up through his neck. Turning to Jay, I casually said "Whew! for a minute there I thought I had hit him. Around here we like to "bark" them so there is more meat to eat." He was from PA, and we were testing each other a bit while he dated my sister. You just gotta have some fun sometimes! :D

[Icorps1970]

There are methods around this. I learned this from 45 2.1 and will not post it on the open forum. I'll leave that up to him.

Sure are.....
But I know of too many ringed chambers and such to play around with it.
I used to be the "tech guy/gunsmith" for a maker of reproduction Sharps and I can assure you there are loads listed in loading manuals right now that have damaged guns and the owners don't even *know* it yet. Sometimes its very subtle till 500-1000 rounds are shot.

I have seen chambers used with *published* data Unique loads in 45-70 with mini-rings from case web to case mouth and finally the one at the bullet base got large enough to mark the case. Reports I received from Ruger at the time reported chambers with 100+ rings had been found using the same or similar loads.

I once told a guy NOT to use 3031 to duplicate BP ballistics in a 50 3 1/4 case and he blew a gun to FRAGMENTS for 6" in front of the breech after developing a load (50 or 53 grains) using a "Powley Computer". IMR powders have been known for reduced load "problems" since there introduction.
It will also produce some really "neat" hangfires when as I found in testing.
As an aside to this a full case of 4198 in a long case 45 with a heavy jacketed bullet would not even stick a case.

Even "safe for large capacity cases" powders ring chambers.
Fast powders in cases as long as the 45-70 will set up pressure waves and where they coincide they will damage the gun. Or so I have been told...
A BIG name is handloading shot 22-24 grains of 2400 in 45-70 for decades but then one day ever thing got "right" and he lost a finger or 3.
A surprising number of blown up guns are from UNDERLOADS, not overloads.

I just think people should make informed decisions.
But it is America you can do what you like....

Dan

[725]

I've enjoyed 9 gr Unique with a .457 RB set in the case mouth. Safe in mine. Your milage may differ.

[BerdanIII]

In going through some old Handloaders, I ran across a reply to a letter than noted a small game load with the collar button bullet (125 grs. if I remember correctly) and 5.0 grs. of black powder. The writer also mentioned using wads, but I'm not really sure if he pushed the bullet down onto the powder on top of the wads or if the wads just took up the empty space in the case and the bullet was seated normally. I can probably locate the issue this weekend.

[JFE]

For a lightweight load I use a CBE 458260 mould - its a SWC style that feeds and cycles well in a tube fed lever and is accurate enough out of the Marlin. Also tried patching 452 bullets and they also worked fine, however I prefer to use the CBE mould. These light loads do have a very different point of impact.

These days Trailboss is good for minimising the possibility of double charges and improving load density. Most users report good accuracy too. I'll be getting hold of some of this powder when I finish my stock of W231.

Joe

[w30wcf]

I have always read that early soldiers on the western plains used their trapdoors for both small game and deer, buffalo and antelope sized game to suplement their beans, hardtack and "sowbelly" rations they were issued.

This practice has alway intrigued me....

.....I've "armed" myself with a sigle cavity "collar button" mould (Lymans #457130) and intend to so some testing along the lines of a small game load.

Now, I know this will be with smokeless and not "holy black" but this is the way I'll go.

I often wonder several things. Did early soldiers have access to collar button type moulds and round ball moulds? I know that reloading outfits were issued to the troop/company sized units in those days. I wonder just how much loading went on in those days and I also wonder if loads of this type were ever used.

Any comments along these lines would be appreciated./beagle


Beagle,
In searching early Ideal catalogs, I found these nuggets:
"The U.S. Marine Corps. officials at Washington tested our special .45-210 gr. bullet (457127) for short range work, after which they gave us orders for a quantity of the Ideal Armory molds for that bullet which are now being used in the Service."

210 gr. Ideal 457127
“This bullet has become very popular for short range work and gallery practice, also for use with a light powder charge on small game. We have furnished the various U.S. Government Barracks with Armory molds for this bullet, for target practice, on account of its accuracy.”

Early on, the suggested loads were b.p.
"Using black powders, select the fine grade which is quicker. They work well for charges from 5 to 15 grains, according to the size of the bore and the distance to be shot. The airspace between the bullet and and powder is unfilled and very good work is ordinarily secured from this ammunition."

No doubt, Armory molds would have also been provided in the round ball and collar button configurations.

Regarding smokeless, I found two references for .45-70 "Short Range" loadings:
Laflin & Rand - 10 grs. Sharpshooter
Marlin - 12 grs. Walsrode
In my own testing, using a 452460 200 gr. bullet from a mold that I opened up to 459" diameter, these loads would have produced 1,300-1,400 f.p.s.

In the 1953 NRA Volume 2 Reloading Information:
"– good squirrel load – 140 round ball
4.5 / bullseye or 5.0 to 5.5 grs. No. 5 pistol powder. The new IMR 5066 powder would replace the No. 5 pistol powder."

Ideal Handbook 38 (1951)
Round ball 457129 - No.6 Pistol / 5.0 grs. / 950E
Collar Button 457130 – Unique / 5.0 grs. / 900E (this would not be correct as 8/Unique gives approx that velocity)
Short Range / Armory 457127 – Bulk Shotgun / 6.5 / 1,000E
- Unique / 7.0 / no velocity listed


Interesting history.

w30wcf

[Bluehawk1]

I've loaded a 300-grain FP cast linotype with 23 grains of IMR 4198, a small square of polyester pillow ticking over the charge. Soft shooting and sub-MOA at 100 yards. Would that help?

[BerdanIII]

From Handloader #238, GOEX Cowboy, p. 22:

"One of the simple pleasures of handloading, though, especially with black powder era cartridges, is the ability to re-create loads that folks in earlier and simpler times found to be useful. One such load in the .45-70 involved the use of a roundball or collar button bullet. A paltry 5 grains of black, followed by a card overpowder wad, a couple of cushioning wads and the ball or bullet seated firmly on the top wad completed the setup. Gil Sengel wrote of this load in "Classic Loads for the Modern .45-70 Rifles" in Handloader No. 133. Velocity is abysmal, but it is a very short-range load. It served as gallery practice on early military posts and sometimes for small game hunting. In my re-creation I used the Lyman collar button bullet from mould 457130 that weighed in at 145 grains or so. It is more accurate than the roundball in my rifle and is just great fun to shoot."

Unfortunately, I don’t have #133.

w30wcf: Good stuff! Interesting how they didn't worry about the empty case volume with black powder loads and the 210-gr. bullet. Is there some tipping point in the pressure curve below which you are safe, but above which you have to have a full case of black to avoid trouble? I know that Winchester produced miniature or short range BP loads for the .32-40 that used about 13 grains of powder; I find it hard to believe they would knowingly produce ammunition that could damage their firearms and reputation.

[DLCTEX]

I took the cushioning wads on top of the overpowder wad to be "filler" and that it filled the case. I don't think air space with any BP load is a good idea.

[Southern Son]

I tried some .454RB with 10 grains of FFg Wano in my 45/70 Spagetti Hiwall. At 25 yards they were fun, very little noise, no recoil and accurate enough to hit the top of a Coke can. At 50 yards they hit nothing. I seated the RB right down on top of the powder and then pushed a wad of black powder lube down on top of the RB (without it, the RB would sometimes try and roll back out of the case!!!).

[w30wcf]

I have a mold for the Ruger Old Army that casts .457 that I'll have to play with.

Dale, that sounds like a neat idea. A friend of mine gave me a handfull to try. They measure .458" and are about 8 BHN.

Interestingly, they are very similar in profile to the 220 gr. bullet that WINCHESTER used in their .45-70 "Short Range" cartridge as the pic below illustrates.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45ShortRangeBullets1jpg.jpg

w30wcf

[45 2.1]

This is an excellent small game / plinker boolit. 0.463" diameter, about 225 gr.:

[w30wcf]

.45 2.1,
Nice looking bullet!

w30wcf