Made a new 22 PP mould

[windrider919]

Here are some pictures of a mould I made this evening. I made a four cavity mouls with 2ea round nose and 2ea spitzer. All four are .600 long because that is the size the twist tables indicated would be the longest to stabilize. My hot water heater is out so I will be spending the next several days making a solar collector and storage tank but maybe later this week I can cast some and patch them.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPExpMould180.jpg
Raw blocks

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPExpMould182.jpg
drilling alignment pin holes

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPExpMould185.jpg
drilling first cavity

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPExpMould187.jpg
reprofiled drill

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPExpMould189.jpg
finised blocks with 2 round nose n 2 spitzer for 22 PP

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/458WM_45-70_223_221Fireball-02.jpg
comparison of .458 WinMag, 45-70, 223, 221 Fireball

[303Guy]

That is awsome! (And inspiring). Thanks for the pics. I'll be looking forward to the results.:drinks:

[windrider919]

I made the sprue plate but did not take any pictures of it as it is sitting in phosphoric acid to pickle. I still have to index and drill n tap the sprue pivot bolt hole. I'm not going to cut handle slots until I see how it casts. The cavities measure .218 so it should patch up to .225 just right.

[303Guy]

Phosphoric acid pickle? That's new to me! How is it done and what does it do? (I see you are a talented man!):drinks:

[windrider919]

I don't have a bluing tank anymore but I found that phosphoric acid / Ospho / Navel Jelly rust remover-treatment works on parts that might rust. Instead of just brushing it on and letting it dry I soak it and the steel 'pickles' by turning dark gray instead of silver. Take it out after 12 hours and rinse with water and it will not rust even when used as a sprue plate and exposed to molten lead temp and then just put up. I don't even rust preserve it after a casting sesion.

The interesting thing is that the old time drug stores where you went in and got a soda, people used to call them a 'phosphate' because the soda fountain added a drop to enhance the sweetness. And most carbonated sodas still contain a little phosphoric acid. PA is made by pouring sulfuric acid through limestone. Just recently I read a medical research paper that identified PA from sodas as eating the calcium out of wemens bones. It does not seem to effect mens bones as much. So the doctors recomended that wemen only drink two sodas a day. How about that? We are drinking rust eater!!

[303Guy]

I used to use phosphoric acid to treat bare steel, specially rusted steel then rinse with sugar soap solution. That would keep the phosphated steel from rusting through several rains and drizzles. I did not know about the 'pickling'. Thanks for the 'enlightenment'.:drinks: (Unsure of it eating calcium out of women's bones, though. I wonder what might be going on there?)

[windrider919]

I decided I needed to try different bullet weights so I made another mould. This one has 2ea RN with one .5 and one .6 long and the same length on the spitzer. I reprofiled the spitzer bullet too.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/221PPExpmould-ver2.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/221PPExpMould-Ver2-1.jpg

[windrider919]

A question, could any of you who have .22 moulds measure the sprue hole size and reply back to me. I did not have one to measure so I just countersunk into the plate till I got a hole size of .183 (+-) but it actually seems too large for the caliber. Remember that this mould is for PP 22 cal so they actually measure .218 out of the mould. Not much difference between .218 and aprox .180. It almost is as big as the base itself. Just leaves a little ring of moulded base around the spru cut off. Yet the hole has to be large enough to pour the lead through. What size do the 'commercial' manufacturers make theirs?

[felix]

22s will get embedded bubbles quite easily because folks, including me, tend to fill the molds rapidly to keep the mold up to temp. Best to have a bigger hole than "stock" and pour more slowly as to quiesce splashes inside the cavities. ... felix

[303Guy]

My RCBS sprue holes measure .123".

I tested some of these castings in my hornet. The patch comes of just fine it seems (I have a new way of catching the 'confetti' - it's a piece of fpwm rubber. The 'confetti' embeds in it). The important thing is the patched boolit fits the case neck and performs pretty good in 'test medium'. Now all I have to do is get them to shoot straight. Ummmm... and cast properly from my mold! Check this one for perfect mushrooming!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-136F.jpg
That boolit must have beem pretty stable - the bits were sitting true in the catch medium.

What would it take to make the mould a 'nose pour' design? Looking at my casting, the meplat is the same size as the sprue, only the sprue is not very central and the base edges are not exactly perfect - properly filled out bit with tiny bits of 'feathering' and no doubt, not perfectly square. It cannot be perfectly square as the sprue plate is a hinged device and not machined, at that.

[rbuck351]

windrider919 my lyman 225415 sprue plate holes are .147. When grinding your cherry do you have to cut it any under size or is it cutting the hole the same size as the cherry?

[windrider919]

This time I am not making a cherry 'end mill' like used for grooved bullets, in that case the the blocks and mill are brought together sideways. I have reground end mills and done that but honestly it is better done professionally as I don't have a double acting vise.

Here I am just taking a regular twist drill and removing the V angle tip. I re-profile [ie: grind it to a bullet nose shape] it to the shape I want and then relieve the cutting edges back clearance. The tool is then used just like a regular drill. I center the drill at the parting line of the blocks and drill down whatever depth I want. Remember, no grooves needed on a PP bullet.

In this case I used a 5.5mm drill which measures .216 actual. The hole it drills is .218 which is about .001 under what I wanted. A 7/32 is .2187 but drills a hole that would be oversize for my required bullet size, usually about .220.

Another example of using a twist drill to make a bullet mould is in 45 cal. I made a PP rifle mould by re-profiling (much easier with larger drill!!!) an 11.5mm drill which measures .452 but cuts a .454 hole. Just right for a smokeless 45 PP bullet to wrap to .462 for my chamber size. If I wanted to make a .458 hole I would use a 29/64th drill

[rbuck351]

Hey thanks . I was wondering as every time i drill a hole it is some larger than the drill size. It also looks like yours is cutting very smooth. What are you using as cutting fluid on aluminum. I am going to try using a heavy drill press and an undersized lee mold as I don't have a milling machine. May try my mini lathe, but it has some stiffness issues.

[windrider919]

I tried Cool Mist but I did not like it for Al. I went back to good old soluble oil even though it has tramp oil and bacterial growth problems. I like that it gives me excellent finish and my tools last longer with a flood system than the mister. Also, the mix preserves the machined ways on my mill so I don't have to dry the machine off at the end of the day. Some of the eco-friendlyl modern coolants have no rust preservative in them and will rust or spot the unpainted machine ways.

But, using a drill press like you are, Kroil spray works great on AL too. Really it's all about the heat, keep the drill cool and clear the chips often so they don't pack the flutes and drag around inside the hole and it will cut smooth

[rbuck351]

Ok, and thanks again. I guess the worst that can happen is a muffed lee mold and it's casting a bullet that won't shoot anyways. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[JIMinPHX]

Wow,
seeing those blocks reminds me that I need to get mine finished. They've been sitting almost-done for a long time now. I really need to get back to them. You can see how I did mine here -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=45741

I sized them up so that a Lee sprue plate & other Lee hardware would fit.

[303Guy]

I re-profile [ie: grind it to a bullet nose shape] it to the shape I want and then relieve the cutting edges back clearance.Thats exactly how I made my 303 mold. It's not easy shaping and sharpening a twist drill to a curve profile!

[windrider919]

JIMinPHX, now that is a cool idea. Now all I have to do is go ahead and replace the toothless gears in my lathe since I let a "friend" borrow it to make something. Thats what trust got me. I forgot to: 'Trust but verify'. I'll remember what you showed us as there. I used to use, when I had an operating lathe, a Dutchman reamer for bullet moulds

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/DutchmanReamer.jpg

[hornsurgeon]

to shap a cutter (drillbit) you can do it freehand the "uneducated machinists" way. spin the drillbit in a lathe or drill press. take your dremel tool with the reinforced cutoff wheel. as the drillbit spins, you can use either the edge or flat side of the cutoff wheel to shape the drillbit to whatever profile you want. just keep the drilbit cool. then releive the cutting edge. i have made a few cherries this way, and other specialty cutting tools. now i'm interested in making a pp 22 mold for my hornet. or not as am geting good results from my bator mold.

[windrider919]

Ahhhh....Hornsurgeon. Isn't that what I said in post #12, just worded differently?

[windrider919]

Here are pic of the sprue plate:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/SpruePlatefor22expmould001.jpg
Top of sprue plate with screws

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/SpruePlatefor22expmould003.jpg
Underside of sprue plate

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/SpruePlatefor22expmould007-Copy.jpg
Sprue plate installed

Thanks for all who responded to let me know how big to make the holes, I decided on .125

[windrider919]

Here are some pic of the cores produced by the mould and some wrapped bullets

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22ppbullets002.jpg
The long bullets are 0.600, for max length stabilization in 12:1 twist,
the short bullets are 0.500 just to try a lighter weight

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22ppbullets008.jpg


http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPbullets_473SP_368SP_501RN_600RN.jpg

L to R 47.3gr Spire Pt, 36.8gr SP, 50.1gr Round Nose, 60.0gr RN

[303Guy]

They look good! I see you have run the patch quite far onto the taper. Now for the range report!:Fire:

[JeffinNZ]

I always say that people need a hobby and something to be passionate about. I don't care whether it is tarting up your car or collecting stamps.

You sir DEFINITELY have a passion. That is fantastic.

[windrider919]

"They" weren't kidding when they said PP for 22 cal required mucho finger dexterity. I always run my patches up far enough that the bullet 'bore rides' on the patch and so that the rifling engages the patch with out pushing it out of shape or anything. But really, these patches go further up the nose simply because I needed that width of patch TO patch, especially on the .500 length spitzer / spire point one.

Next time I am considering hiring a small fingered girl or something because I have large hands (n fingers!) and had to use a pointed scalpel to lift and start the patch point and then get my finger on the bullet to roll. And you cannot see if it is rolling straight until you finish. So sometimes I had to unroll and start over, if I could unroll! That happened about 1/4 of the time and by the middle of the session I just tore off patch and started again. It took me almost 2 1/2 hours to patch 15 {including calculating patch length n cutting patches (3 diff. widths)} of each bullet size [60 total].

I will load them tomorrow when the patches are completely dry but probably will not be able to shoot them til later next week.

[303Guy]

... probably will not be able to shoot them til later next week.Dang! Now I'll have to wait!:groner:

Ummm... there comes a time to try my method.[smilie=1:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-180F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-181F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-182F.jpg

It's as easy as it looks - Tee Hee. And no, I do not have any teenagers in the house - thank goodness! (But I do have gremlins. :twisted: )

I too, find it more productive to start again when the wetted patch 'needs to be readjusted'.

I found that by placing the wetted patch fully on the 'pad' then simply rolling the boolit over it, the the boolit picks up the start point all on its own.

[windrider919]

Here is a pic of a group I got today using the 47gr PP spire point bullet, 12gr Lil'Gun powder w/ std SR primer. This is a 5 shot group [100yds] with the rifle sandbagged on the bench. Conditions were clear blue sky, temp 99 degrees with 100% humidity. I had to wait 35 min between groups to let the barrel cool down to 99degree ambient. Rifle was put into the shade by sliding it under my truck. In other words, it was fricking hot today!!!!

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1155.jpg

I have no idea of the velocity but 16gr with a 50gr bullet is 3200FPS. I found absolutely no paper in front of the rifle and I had a friend watching the muzzle blast to see if we could recover some. The bullets were shot into a dirt backstop, I dug some but could not find anything before I had to stop to let the range go hot again for the other shooters.

[sav300]

Windrider919.
Good work and good shooting.good to see all your own work doing great.

[303Guy]

Very nice results! Pity about that flyer opening up an otherwise perfect group.:mrgreen:

The other day I had a visitor who assured me that paper patching will not work.
Oh well!:neutral:

[windrider919]

Just remind him that millions of dead buffalo on the Western Plains would disagree that PP does not work. And a lot of the early African hunters used PP bullets (on dangerous game too!) before WWI which really introduced jacketed bullets.

Yah, big bummer about the flier. And I knew and called it even before I looked in the spotting scope. But the other groups all measured between 1/2 and 5/8 even though they were more spread out. That one is 5/8 with the flier but the tight group section is 4 shots into 3/8. Still the best group of the day if you ignore the flier which you really can't. I actually thought the long bodied round noses would do best but it was the 0.60 long spire point that did best. The 0.50 spire point did worst of the four types.

[303Guy]

Dang, that's a tight group! I keep going back to the pic to check that I didn't dream it! I love it! (Of course, now I can never be satisfied with my results 'cause I can't shoot that well!:mrgreen: But it gives me something to strive for:-D).

Might I ask you for the dimensions of your .6 spire point? (So I can make myself one). Might I also ask if you have a pic of the loaded round?

PS. I hope you don't mind me keeping a copy of you group! May I use it to 'show' to non-believers?

[windrider919]

Showing off my pic, why of course! Isn't that why we are here at Cast Boolits, to trade information and results. I debated putting that group on the site because I'm not sure I could do it again. And really, the shotbags that cradle the rifle have to take the credit because I could never be that steady without them. I even had bags at the buttstock with my left hand holding the top of the buttstock down into them and right on trigger. There is still a little movement from my pulse but timing the shot solves that. Thats where I messed up with the flier, I shot too soon on a heartbeat instead of between.

As per dimensions, of the bullet: as I wrote it is 0.60 long, 0.219 cast dia. [attempting to get 7/32 finished size]. I used a 5.4mm/.213"/# 3 drill to make the pointed, reshaped twist drill. I will have to measure the straight section because I have not done so yet. I shot all the bullets I had cast (that pile shown earlier) and the mould is not here right now to measure. I was trying for 1/3 nose, 2/3 bearing length though when I ground it with the plan for it to be max rifling twist length which is 0.600. . Note: the Al blocks expand when at casting temp so it requires a smaller drill. As PPed they were .225. I wish I had taken some pic of the loaded rounds but I loaded them at 5:00am and was driving to the range at 7:00am and I just never thought about it

I did have some trouble loading the bullets and several patches tore making them unshootable. I had to bell the resized case mouths with the taper of a center punch and a slight blow to enable the boolet to seat in the case neck. Not very match at all so I was astounded that they shot so well!

My CZ 527 221 Fireball has a very short ball seat/throat so the bullets have to seat fairly deeply. The cylindrical section of the bullet just behind the ogive nose barely shows outside the case mouth. That ment the long RN types base actually stuck into the case below the case neck which might explain their poor accuracy. The bullets patched base and part of the side were in the case exposed to the burning powder gas. The spitzer bullets were in the length of the case neck but not extending into the case.

I will continue to experiment but what I really want to do next is catch some bullets and see how they expand at 100 to 300 yards in wet paper pulp or the water tank.

[303Guy]

Thanks windrider919. I just have to keep re-checking that group. It is astounding! I have done that timing of the heartbeat trick too!:mrgreen: (I was quite pleased - my rusty, two groove shot pretty good! No groups, mind you. I was just sighting in. The rifle shoots better than I can as long as I don't sqeeze the stock).

I just have to pursue this 22 cal paper patching! I know my 1 in 16 twist hornet shoots 60gr J-words real good. So, a 60gr RN PP'ed boolit is going to do some damage to some critters!