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bob4wd
06-29-2009, 07:53 PM
:???:Ok, I've been shooting at targets, and occasionally hitting them, for most of my life, and that is a very long time indeed! Since I've gotten into Cowboy Action Shooting, I've been doing a lot of reloading (got to, can't afford loaded ammo in these quantities), all with the normal goals for this sport of low recoil, short range, all lead. No problems at all, using published data and gradually reducing the loads to where they still go bang and manage to limp their way to the steel plates.
I've been reloading long enough to understand, in general terms, the theories about burning rate/bullet weight/pressure peaks et al.- or at least I thought so until I got hooked on this forum. I guess I knew just enough to be dangerous! Turns out all the books make assumptions that don't always apply to lead bullets in rifles, or real light loads in shotguns, or bullet diameters, or gas checks or-or-or-----
This has become an issue now, at least for me, because some of the Cowboy shoots are introducing long range shoots (long range being 100-200 yards) using the expected buffalo guns but also big-bore levers, rolling blocks, and even Mil-Surps. So- now I've got to load .444, 45-70, 7mm Mauser, 06, 30-40 and even 30-30 to maximize the fun quotient. I've gotten a good feel for the light rifle loads using Unique (!) and the normal rifle powders from this forum and will be trying a few loads just as soon as my new dies and bullets arrive.
Now--the three big questions still remaining:
1. I'm an old IPSC shooter, still have tons of pistol powders laying around, like Acurate #2, Accurate #5, Win 231, Win 296, and Bullseye. If Unique works well for light lead loads, why wouldn't these? Are any of them apt to pressure peak too high, as I understand Red Dot can? Using old guns, pressure is important!!!
2. I understand that lead bullets should be a thou or two bigger diameter in order to properly obturate, but is that not also a function of velocity/ burn rate/ pressure? In other words, would a slower load need a bigger bullet to seal the bore- or are all lead loads considered to be "slow" and therefore need to be bigger? This of course assumes that bullet hardness is proper.
3.With regards to 2. above, how does the presence/absence of a gas check affect size? Use cast diameter loads data or use jacketed loads data?
4. Okay, one more- all the published shot shell data carries umpteenzillion warnings to not deviate- but as long as I'm going lower charge and lower shot weight (with shot cup fillers), but using correct shot cup/wad column, where's the danger??
I've gathered that there are some real experts on this site, so I know the answers are out there! BTW, one of you guys ought to write a book, with the possible exception of the Lyman handbook,there's not a whole lot of meaningful dope published.

This may be too many questions for one session, if so let me know and I'll resubmit.
Thanks much!!

Leftoverdj
06-29-2009, 08:30 PM
:???:1. I'm an old IPSC shooter, still have tons of pistol powders laying around, like Acurate #2, Accurate #5, Win 231, Win 296, and Bullseye. If Unique works well for light lead loads, why wouldn't these? Are any of them apt to pressure peak too high, as I understand Red Dot can? Using old guns, pressure is important!!!
2. I understand that lead bullets should be a thou or two bigger diameter in order to properly obturate, but is that not also a function of velocity/ burn rate/ pressure? In other words, would a slower load need a bigger bullet to seal the bore- or are all lead loads considered to be "slow" and therefore need to be bigger? This of course assumes that bullet hardness is proper.
3.With regards to 2. above, how does the presence/absence of a gas check affect size? Use cast diameter loads data or use jacketed loads data?
4. Okay, one more- all the published shot shell data carries umpteenzillion warnings to not deviate- but as long as I'm going lower charge and lower shot weight (with shot cup fillers), but using correct shot cup/wad column, where's the danger??
I've gathered that there are some real experts on this site, so I know the answers are out there! BTW, one of you guys ought to write a book, with the possible exception of the Lyman handbook,there's not a whole lot of meaningful dope published.

This may be too many questions for one session, if so let me know and I'll resubmit.
Thanks much!!

WW 296 has a very bad reputation for KBs in reduced loads. I ain't getting into whether that reputation is deserved, just that I ain't gonna be the one to find out. The other powders you mention are all usable with light cast loads, emphasis on light. The AA-5 is a little slower than Unique, and I'd be willing to use Unique data as a starting point.

So far, I have not run into an exception to the 1-2 thous over rule, and I have quit thinking about it. Doesn't seem to be anything to gain. I aim for .002 over, but will take .003 or .001 when I need to.

Gas checked bullets will take more pressure, hence give accuracy at higher velocities than plain base. Generally, plain base bullets are adequate up to 12-1400 fps depending on the rifle and this and that. If that meets your needs, they are a lot easier to cast and shoot. Far as I can find out, the GC has little effect on pressure, but a lot of effect on how much pressure can be used and still be accurate.

Shot shells have a narrow margin between bloopers and dangerous pressures. Reduce the charge much and the load does not generate enough pressure to burn properly. If you must reduce charges, black or Pyrodex are your best bets.

jdgabbard
06-29-2009, 08:59 PM
I've experienced leading in everything I've loaded if not sized .001-.002 over bore. That said, I've not loaded any rifle (with the exception being my Ruger PC-9). But would expect in most cases, due to the longer barrel, that this would be just as important.

10mmShooter
06-29-2009, 09:34 PM
bob4wd,


I too am a shooter that enjoys light target loads. I've spent a lot time trying to find the "magic" powder that I can shoot at 950fps with a lead SWC in my various 10mm(SW1006', Delta's, SW610), .38 (SW686)and .44 (Anaconda) guns and with the best econmy. Top powders that are on anyone's short list are WW231, Unique and Bullseye and Green Dot for me. Just in case you missed it I favor Winchester and Hercules(Alliant Powders) for target loads. When I need to shoot full house loads I'm an Accurate Arms fan.... No 7 and No 9 for 10mm, .357 and .44 mag are my choices

My personnal perference(your opionion may differ, hence its my opinion) for my 10mm I stick WW231 for the 10mm at 950fps, for the .38 special and .44 loads I go with Green Dot. Green Dot has a faster burn rate than WW231 and AA No 2 and lightly slower than Bullseye and RedDot. These are my choices your results may vary.

Of the powders you list Bullseye, Unique and WW231 and even AA No 2 will work very well for lighter loads....but No .5 is getting too slow for really light loads, and forget WW296 for target loads... 296 has a much slower burn rate than even No 9.

...You might consider purchasing Accurates Smokeless powder loading guide its a must for Accurate's powders, as for the Alliant powders, I have many of "regular loading guides that they made before they switched to the useless web tool loading guide they have now.

Dale53
06-30-2009, 12:01 AM
bob4wd;
I'll answer #4.

Shotguns operate at a very low pressure (9,000-11,000 lbs) with relatively fast burning powders. It takes very little to push them into the dangerous range. Merely swapping a wad for another can raise pressures to the danger point. So can changing primers, etc.

The general rule is to NEVER make arbitrary changes in shotgun load components and DO follow the recipe. I have been standing next to people who didn't believe that TWICE (while shooting trap). I don't relish doing it again. In both cases, the shotguns were ruined (one of them the very strong Winchester Model 12). Fortunately, in the case of the two experiences that I witnessed, no one was injured.

Just because some one has gotten away with something does NOT make it a good idea. A couple of teen agers, locally, thought it would be a good idea to break into a power station. The corpse of one was unidentifiable (have you heard the term CRISPY CRITTER?). Reports had suggested that they did it several times before the fatal accident.

The are certain areas you do NOT need to explore. This is one of them (changing the recipes of shotgun loads).

Dale53

Goatlips
06-30-2009, 12:20 AM
Welcome Bob4wd,

I'll answer all your questions as I shoot Cowboy Action too; :Fire: switch to BLACK POWDER (the Holy Black) :mrgreen: and fill your rifle and pistol cases full and cram a boolit on top. They might kick a little without filler but you'll never get a double charge.

For shotgun, any 12 ga case with a square load (as much Blackpowder as shot) using the largest (4.3) Lee dipper works just fine. :drinks:

Not interested in Black Powder? :coffee: Then I can't help ya - except the reminder that Cowboys can't use gas checks in competition. Good luck, you found the best place. (Sorry, got a bit carried away!)

Goatlips

Slow Elk 45/70
06-30-2009, 12:42 AM
:???:Ok, I've been shooting at targets, and occasionally hitting them, for most of my life, and that is a very long time indeed! Since I've gotten into Cowboy Action Shooting, I've been doing a lot of reloading (got to, can't afford loaded ammo in these quantities), all with the normal goals for this sport of low recoil, short range, all lead. No problems at all, using published data and gradually reducing the loads to where they still go bang and manage to limp their way to the steel plates.
I've been reloading long enough to understand, in general terms, the theories about burning rate/bullet weight/pressure peaks et al.- or at least I thought so until I got hooked on this forum. I guess I knew just enough to be dangerous! Turns out all the books make assumptions that don't always apply to lead bullets in rifles, or real light loads in shotguns, or bullet diameters, or gas checks or-or-or-----
This has become an issue now, at least for me, because some of the Cowboy shoots are introducing long range shoots (long range being 100-200 yards) using the expected buffalo guns but also big-bore levers, rolling blocks, and even Mil-Surps. So- now I've got to load .444, 45-70, 7mm Mauser, 06, 30-40 and even 30-30 to maximize the fun quotient. I've gotten a good feel for the light rifle loads using Unique (!) and the normal rifle powders from this forum and will be trying a few loads just as soon as my new dies and bullets arrive.Red dot will work in your 30-40, 06, 7mm [12gr] is acceptable in these, Not the 30-30, case capacity is to small for this load
Now--the three big questions still remaining:
1. I'm an old IPSC shooter, still have tons of pistol powders laying around, like Acurate #2, Accurate #5, Win 231, Win 296, and Bullseye. If Unique works well for light lead loads, why wouldn't these? Are any of them apt to pressure peak too high, as I understand Red Dot can? Using old guns, pressure is important!!!Cases with the capacity of the 30-40 and 06, 308 will take 12 gr OK, you can work from there depending on your rifle.
2. I understand that lead bullets should be a thou or two bigger diameter in order to properly obturate, but is that not also a function of velocity/ burn rate/ pressure? In other words, would a slower load need a bigger bullet to seal the bore- or are all lead loads considered to be "slow" and therefore need to be bigger? This of course assumes that bullet hardness is proper.Most pistol loads work well .002 over bore size, if chamber throats will accept the loaded rounds, Best to check cylinder throats/bbl to get a good fit. Rifles, slug the bore to determine the size boolit you need/ this will be affected by the chamber throat of your rifle, a chamber cast works good for this.
3.With regards to 2. above, how does the presence/absence of a gas check affect size? Use cast diameter loads data or use jacketed loads data?GC doesn't affect boolit size, size for the bore. Use cast boolit load data, if you use jacked info, start at the minimum load, work up if necessary.
4. Okay, one more- all the published shot shell data carries umpteenzillion warnings to not deviate- but as long as I'm going lower charge and lower shot weight (with shot cup fillers), but using correct shot cup/wad column, where's the danger??If you are talking about Buckshot sub for bird shot, no problem as long as your weight doesn't change, liter is ok , don't go over. You should not change other componnets. Go to the Shotgun casting Thread for a lot of info on this.
I've gathered that there are some real experts on this site, so I know the answers are out there! BTW, one of you guys ought to write a book, with the possible exception of the Lyman handbook,there's not a whole lot of meaningful dope published.Google LASC.usa for a lot of good casting info and search the Classics and Stickies threads on this site.

This may be too many questions for one session, if so let me know and I'll resubmit.
Thanks much!!

Hope this helps[smilie=1: