Hard Lubes for Handgun Bullets

[doubs43]

I recently bought a Lyman 4500 Lubrisizer with a heater. For years the only lube I've used has been the NRA 50/50 alox & beeswax formula. Now I'd like to try one of the hard lubes as soon as the present lube is used up.

I have a stick of Lyman "Orange Magic" but would like the experiences and opinions of those who have used hard lubes in .45ACP, .38/.357 and 9mm Luger loadings.

[44man]

I have not had much luck with the Lyman lube, it is too brittle. You do not need a hard lube with what you are shooting.

[fredj338]

Best heated lube IMO, is White Label Carnuba. 1/2 the price & not as brittle as other commercial. Try the Lyman, you've already got it, then order some White Labe Carnuba or the BAC, which really doesn't need any heat except at very cold lubing temps.

[robertbank]

On balance I think I would go with a soft lube for the calibers mentioned. I load them all in volume and have found the soft lubes to perform better than hard lubes. Less leading for sure in 9MM and .45acp. If you go with soft lubes bell a little more than normal and you will have less to deal with in the criping die.

I should say aside from leading I haven't noticed a material difference in accuracy using the same loads and bullets.

Take Care

Bob

[finishman2000]

i used hard type lubes because i hate the mess and stickiness of the soft type.

[stubert]

I got a used Lyman 450 years ago, It came with a dozen sticks of orange magic. It is the only lube I have used for 5 years. I shoot 44 spec. 44 mag. 35 rem, 45-70, 458 lott. from 240 gr. to 500 gr. never had a problem with leading at any velocity. my alloy is 9lb ww - 1lb 50/50, some are gas checked some are not.

[mtgrs737]

i used hard type lubes because i hate the mess and stickiness of the soft type.

I don't care for the stickyness of the soft lubes either but I think they work better in short pistol barrels. I use Lar's BAC and cut off a 3/8" slice of Lar's carnuba Red that I melt into the full stick of BAC and then pour that into the lubersizer. The small amount of CR makes the BAC less sticky but it is still soft and works great in my pistols. It is like it skins over after it sits for awhile, I do use a minimum of heat when I size because I do it in a cool basement and the heat allows for easier flow. Give it a try and you will be pleased.

[finishman2000]

i have a case coming in with my new ballisti-cast sizer so i'm going to be kinda married to that for awhile anyway.
I will try your mix out though...
thanks

[Recluse]

With the exception of Carnauba Red, if a lube isn't sticky, I won't use it.

:coffee:

[Firebricker]

Give carnauba red a try its good stuff. FB

[462]

One stick of Jake's Purple Ceresin melted with half of a stick of his 50/50 beeswax/Alox -- somewhat soft but not sticky. Requires a bit of heat when ambient temperatures are cool.

http://www.jakesproducts.com/index.html

[NHlever]

Back when I could actually see handgun sights well, and right after I got my lube heater I tried both side by side for accuracy. I found that the RCBS green pistol lube gave consistantly better accuracy than the hard blue lube I tried at the time. (don't remember what it was exactly) I didn't like the mess of the 50 / 50 alox beeswax lubes so had been using the RCBS green for some time. Recently I bought some Thompson Blue Angel, and I'm trying that on a variety of boolits now. I have some loaded with both but got inerrupted when I was doing the comparison shooting. I hope to get back to that soon... So far I haven't seen much difference in accuracy in the .44 mag, .22 Hornet, 223, 308, 30-06, and 30-30. I've heard a lot of good comments about the carnuba red, so I may try that, or Lars slightly softer red mix.

[fecmech]

Gentlemen, I'm confused after reading these posts. I just bought 12 sticks of Carnauba Red because I thought it was a hard non-sticky lube. The labels say "Carnauba Red " but the lube is sticky as all get out. I bulk pack my bullets after running them through my Star sizer and with this CR lube the bullets stick together, lube pulls out of the lube groove by sticking to the nose of other bullets and generally makes a mess. The lube is not as soft as 50/50 but it is not hard like Zambini, Blue Angel or Magma, the stick will bend almost double before breaking. I sent Lars an email asking if I had a bad or mislabeled batch but never got a reply. Is Carnauba Red a hard non sticky lube ??

[btroj]

That's just what my carnuba red is like. Try it, it's a good lube. I find it's much less sticky than many other lubes and actually works, unlike some of the hard, hard, hard lubes.
I'd rather have a messier lube that works than an easy to work with lube that leads to leading or poor accuracy. You have to ask yourself what it is you are after.

Brad

[runfiverun]

throw some talcum powder or motor mica on them.
red is a bit tacky, it kinda settles down after a week or two.
i just mix 2 sticks of 50/50 to one red and throw some jakes purple in it it firms it right up but it still has the tacky when under pressure and heat.

[fecmech]

That's just what my carnuba red is like. Try it, it's a good lube. I find it's much less sticky than many other lubes and actually works, unlike some of the hard, hard, hard lubes.
I'd rather have a messier lube that works than an easy to work with lube that leads to leading or poor accuracy. You have to ask yourself what it is you are after.

Brad

I have never had any problems with the hard lubes I mentioned. My cast bullet area is primarily handguns and .357 rifles and all with plain base bullets. I get 2" or less accuracy at 50 yds out of the handguns up to and including 1200-1300 fps and 4 moa accuracy at 100 yds out of my lever guns at 1500-1600 fps using Zambini and Magma lubes which are not sticky at all. the Magma is priced about the same as Carnauba so I guess I'll go back to that. I just went with the CR because he's a board sponsor and thought it would work for me. I'm sure it's a fine lube and maybe needed when you get to higher velocities in rifles. It has no advantages for my applications that I can see and the stickiness is big (for me) negative. Thanks for the reply, it appears my CR is the real deal and not a labeling mix up or bad batch.

[Dale53]

I have been using Lars' White Label Carnauba Red for some time with excellent accuracy and NO leading. It has a higher melting point and it also smokes much less than 50/50. I shoot mostly pistols and revolvers these days.

Red Carnauba requires some heat to lube with (I use a Star or Lyman or RCBS lube/sizers - mostly Star). I picked Carnauba Red because of it's higher melting point. It is definitely MUCH less sticky than NRA 50/50. I do NOT dump my carefully cast and sized bullets all in a heap in a container. I size and lube them and stack them carefully base down and side by side in a plastic container or cigar box. The lube skins over in a couple of days and then it is NON sticky. It also STAYS in the lube groove under storage in the back of my van and in my unheated garage.

Keep in mind that my FIRST priority is accuracy. If it is not accurate then nothing else matters to me. The handling qualities are definitely WAY secondary to that personal requirement.

YMMV
Dale53

[fecmech]

Keep in mind that my FIRST priority is accuracy. If it is not accurate then nothing else matters to me. The handling qualities are definitely WAY secondary to that personal requirement.

YMMV
Dale53

That is also my FIRST priority and once I have that, the handling is very important to me. If stacking my bullets neatly gained me any accuracy I would do it, but it doesn't, I've already been down that road years ago with 50/50 lubes. I shoot 300-400 rds every week and would much rather shoot than sort and stack. YMMV

[sleeper1428]

Gentlemen, I'm confused after reading these posts. I just bought 12 sticks of Carnauba Red because I thought it was a hard non-sticky lube. The labels say "Carnauba Red " but the lube is sticky as all get out. I bulk pack my bullets after running them through my Star sizer and with this CR lube the bullets stick together, lube pulls out of the lube groove by sticking to the nose of other bullets and generally makes a mess. The lube is not as soft as 50/50 but it is not hard like Zambini, Blue Angel or Magma, the stick will bend almost double before breaking. I sent Lars an email asking if I had a bad or mislabeled batch but never got a reply. Is Carnauba Red a hard non sticky lube ??

Dump 50 or so freshly lubed boolits at a time into a plastic bowl, drop in a half teaspoon of Midway's Ultra fine dry Mica lubricant (that's what I use but you can use any of the available fine Micas), shake 'em around for a few seconds and then store them. I've got boxes of boolits treated this way that I cast and lubed (50/50) over 10 years ago and still no problem with sticking together. Plus you don't get lube on your fingers when you get around to loading 'em!!!

sleeper1428

[finishman2000]

or he can use a hard lube since he has a heater...

[44man]

I just do not see a problem. Here is a picture of a can of boolits lubed with icky, sticky wonderful Felix lube and half were Carnauba Red when the can was full. Both shoot the same for me and there has not been a single boolit that lost any lube.
I can't picture any of these lubes falling out of the grease grooves.

[robertbank]

Some of the commercial bullets I have bought have had the lube fall out of them. As I lube my bulets I put them in used crates that come with commercial cartridges. Works great and they stack well on my bench. I use Felix lube in the main though recently I have been using Jakes Blue as I had it on hand and was to lazy to make up another batch of Felix lube.:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

[fecmech]

44 Man et all: I have no ax to grind against soft sticky lubes, I'm sure they have their place as does the hard non sticky types. I just do not want to spend the time adding mica or stacking bullets. I cast with 4 and 6 cavity molds and size with a Star sizer. My bullets fall 1-2" into plastic 1 pt. containers under the Star and when that's full I put another one under it. There is no bullet damage and minimal handling. I then place those containers in front of my progressive reloader and grab 8-10 bullets at a time in my hand and as I cycle the press place a bullet on the case that needs it. I comfortably load approx 300-400 rds per hour. Using this system and hard lubes such as Magma, Zambini etc give me consistent 2"-2.5" accuracy at 50 yds out of my K-38,GP100, SBH .44 mag and my .45 wad gun all with zero leading. My .357 lever guns go 2-3" at 100 yds with 1100 fps loads and the one will average under 4"@ 100yds using a 1600 fps load. These are all plain base bullets, no gas checks. I am not a bench rest shooter no do I believe that much more accuracy is available in my shooting platforms without a disproportionate amount of increased effort.
Obviously other people load on single stage presses and size in Lyman type sizers so sizing and loading procedures are different and therefore they don't mind the extra time or the addition of mica etc. If I felt I could gain an accuracy advantage using sticky lubes I would do it. I've used them, including Felix and Carnauba Red but for my situation none are any better than Magma or Zambini. Now if you get into 2000 fps velocities and above Felix and Carnauba are probably what is needed, I don't know for sure as I don't operate in that range.

[44man]

I understand. But I have had store bought boolits or some sent to me where half the lube was in the bottom of the box. Sometimes "sticky" is better, or at least soft enough so it is not brittle. Paraffin can make a lube break.

[doubs43]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply. The thread has gotten more discussion than I'd hoped for and I appreciate it. There's a lot of good information that I'll need to consider before making a final decision on which lube to try.

[Tom W.]

I just loaded my last stick of Orange magic into my sizer... Soon I'll be left with the Carnauba Red, which I like better. As for accuracy, I haven't seen a whole lot of difference with my '06, and my handgun bullets go where I point them (mostly, anyway) so I'm happy. I'll probabaly have a stick of the Lyman black moly stuff untill I either die or get desperate....I really don't like it.

[44man]

I have not shot cast out of bottle neck calibers for many, many years but do not remember any problems with lubes. I bought what was out there.
It seems as if straight wall cases and revolvers have the most problems with accuracy changes with a lube change. Ever since I started the hunt for the smallest revolver groups with cast, I can see a difference right away. Most revolver shooters would never know.
Even the 45-70 BPCR will drive you nuts with a poor lube.
The .44 Marlin has shown a drastic change at 50 yards, the farthest any boolit will group anyway, beyond that it is a crap shoot so it would not matter if you used oiled sawdust for lube! :mrgreen:

[wallenba]

I am awaiting delivery of a new Lyman 4500, top punches, dies and some orange magic. All my loads are low velocity target loads (38 spl, 44 spl, 45 Colt). I use Lee TL type bullet molds and have no experience yet with a lubrisizer. Have I made a good choice? and should I invest in different mold types? I should have made a new post I guess, but I seem to have stumbled onto some knowledgable folks right here.

[GLynn41]

The point of the TL Lee bullets is not to size them--normally -- you just put the liquid Alox on all over them and let them dry-certainly you can size them though if you choose-- orange magic worked well the last time I tried it-- as to other molds that would be your call but normal bullet molds are made to be sized some-- you affect all sizing with the bullet metal -in general softer is smaller and harder is larger - in diameter- not a lot of increase .say from .4105 - .412 --- something like that --this a good place-- as to your choices if they make you happy then they are great choices because they will do what you want

[wallenba]

The point of the TL Lee bullets is not to size them--normally -- you just put the liquid Alox on all over them and let them dry-certainly you can size them though if you choose-- orange magic worked well the last time I tried it-- as to other molds that would be your call but normal bullet molds are made to be sized some-- you affect all sizing with the bullet metal -in general softer is smaller and harder is larger - in diameter- not a lot of increase .say from .4105 - .412 --- something like that --this a good place-- as to your choices if they make you happy then they are great choices because they will do what you want
Glynn41, I want to load my lubed bullets same day, so I thought lubing them in a lubrisizer with conventional lube might work. I'm concerned that the orange magic won't fill the tiny grooves though. Also, two of my six cavity molds have one or more that cast out of round and I have to use a push through Lee sizer on those anyway. I love the concept of tumble lubing, but I have a tendency to over apply the alox, or thin it too much. Finding that perfect coating has been elusive.

[44man]

Glynn41, I want to load my lubed bullets same day, so I thought lubing them in a lubrisizer with conventional lube might work. I'm concerned that the orange magic won't fill the tiny grooves though. Also, two of my six cavity molds have one or more that cast out of round and I have to use a push through Lee sizer on those anyway. I love the concept of tumble lubing, but I have a tendency to over apply the alox, or thin it too much. Finding that perfect coating has been elusive.
Orange Magic is a little hard and might fall out of the boolit. I rub Felix lube in the grooves and run them through an oversize Lee die to remove excess lube.
TL boolits shoot just great that way. 3/4" groups at 50 yards and around 1" at 100 from my .44. LLA will not do that for me. A little while ago I actually had a 1/4" group at 50 with Felix lube.
Too much or too little Alox is not your problem, Alox is! :roll:

[wallenba]

44Man, I get good results on targets with it, but when it's too thick.. it's, SMOKEY!!