First .223 boolits

[snaggdit]

OK, I got around to casting with my new .223 mold tonight! I used 9:1 WW/Foundry type and water dropped. First I heated the mold and had the alloy pretty hot (8 in my Lee pot, usually I cast at 7, I know, I need a thermometer...). After casting a few, I used some bullplate lube then went to town water dropping. I didn't have more than a couple rejects. I did cast hot and fast, though. Here they are:
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8153/223s.jpg

[Echo]

Wow, those are good looking boolits! Let us know how your trials work out.

[captain-03]

Can't seem to get the picture to load -- what are you going to use them in?

[snaggdit]

I'm using them in an AR-15. Checked size and they dropped at .2235 one way and .225 across the part line. Just finished gas checking 200 of them at .225. Then checked hardness and fresh from the water dropping they are around 20bhn. Weighed 10 and they are 52.3-52.5gr, average of 52.36gr. With checks they weigh 53.4-53.6gr. Plan to get to the range 4th of July weekend and see how some loads work.

[Bad Karma]

I like shooting my 22 caliber cast boolits in my 22 Hornet. Tricky little round to get load tuned though.

[leadman]

Don't you just love putting those little gas checks on? Wait until you start putting the boolits in the case.
Took me about 5 hours to check and size 300 one night.

[snaggdit]

Yeah, my fingers got a little sore pushing the bases into those checks. Took me an hour to cast 300 and about a half hour to check 200. Figured I would only check 200 and see how they work before wasting more checks. Might want to change alloy.

[DAFzipper]

What mold are you using?

[Calamity Jake]

If your are using a Lyman/RCBS luber get a GC seater then put that little GC in the size die then set that little 22 boolit on top and seat the GC, it's a little easer that way.
I seat GC's then remove the GC seater and size/lube.

[snaggdit]

I don't have a lube sizer yet. I will be looking for one this fall, pending a return to availability of course.
DAFZipper, Based on recommendations from a thread a few weeks ago I went with the Lyman 225415 GC FP. It was my first steel mold and the smallest mold. I was very happy with the results. I had apprehensions since many have posted that .223 molds are hard to get good boolits from. I can only attribute my success to incorporating all the tips I have acquired here in the last 6 months. Thanks all!

[72coupe]

I cast 10 pounds of those little jewels last Sunday.

Shot some today and was very pleased with the results. I shot them out of my Model 70 Heavy Varmint 1/9 twist barrel with aperture sights.

6 grains of Rex1 gives me a velocity of 1853 and a good (at least for me) 2 inch group.

The bullet is cast from wheel weights and water quenched and sized to .225.

It was 94° degrees at the range when I fired these at 10:30 AM.

[dpaqu]

any luck snaggdit?

[JeffinNZ]

I now see why my older 225415 is only 48gr in WW metal. My gas check shank is half that length. Still shoots great and levels small game.

[snaggdit]

Well, I did sneak off to the range briefly on the 4th. I tried three different powders. I have lots of surplus 4198 so I was hoping I could find a load with that. Tried 17-19 grains in 1 grain increments. At 25 yards, 17gr had 2" groups and up from there it got worse. I was checking for leading (none!) and cleaning between groups. Next up was 20-23 gr IMR3031. Again, 20 was the best, but still 2" at 25 yards. The H4895 was terrible at 22-25gr. I am going to try again with the next 4 grains down for each. I wasn't sure they would cycle lower than that but they rocked just fine. I know they were a tad fast, being 2200-2800fps. Wish my chrono was working... Oh well, time to order a new one. Still, nothing leaded and a day at the range is a good day any way the targets come out, right?

[DLCTEX]

I cast some Lyman 225438 with my single cavity mold today and was surprised to get keeper boolits form the first cast from a cold mold without preheating. I was so surprised I burned my fingers looking it over. I only cast 50 as I had a short while to cast before picking my wife up at work. After the first five I water dropped them, was using straight WW. Going to load them up for my Raging Hornet Pistol on top of 4.7 gr. SR7625.

[JIMinPHX]

That Lyman 225415 GC FP was the first .22 cal mold that I tried. It sure is a pretty looking little boolit & I had really high hopes for it. I was able to get up over 3,000fps with no leading using Lyman Super Moly lube in a 1:12 twist barrel, but my accuracy was awful. I was off the paper at 50 yards. I later tried the Bator & had similar results at very high speeds.

Once I got down around 2200-2500 fps, I started to actually hit a few things that I was aiming at. When I got the Bator seated out far enough to touch the lands when I chambered the round, my accuracy started to become semi-respectable. I wasn't able to seat the Lymans out far enough to touch because the nose on that thing is so long. Even with the Bator, I had to seat it out so far that only one lube groove was still covered by the neck of the brass. The Lyman just didn't have enough length on the full diameter section to make that an option. I was able to shoot the Bator with lube in just the rear lube groove & the little bit of extra space at the top of the gas check. Leaving the lube out of the top groove didn't seem to cause any problems for me.

I tried alloys from 13 to 23 BNH. The harder ones shot a little better, but not much. I hollow pointed a few of them in a lathe. The HPs shot a little better, but not much.

If you look in the older books, you will see that Lyman 225415 GC FP listed as 45-grains. Back then, they made them shorter. The newer molds produce a boolit with a longer gas check heal that weighs a little more.

Since the Bator shot better for me in my single shot, I've mostly stayed with it, but I still have a handful of those Lymans kicking around that I should probably do some more trials with. I'll be interested to find out what load works best for you. I had pretty good luck with 2400 powder, but I wasn't trying to cycle an autoloader. I also didn't go as far down with the velocity as you did. Maybe I should give that a try.

Beagle has posted a very informative 3-part series of articles on loading cast .22s over on the cast pics board. I highly recommend it.

Thanks for posting your results.

Jim

[snaggdit]

I was in a hurry when I first loaded them. I had a post going for OAL but loaded them before I discovered I could load out to 2.120. I loaded them all at 2.090 so the next trials might improve based on that alone. Also, I was using LLA. If the next batch is still poor in accuracy, I will try speed green (but would love to find accuracy with LLA, sooo much easier without a lube sizer...). I have a few sticks of that around. Just checked hardness now that it has been a week and a half. My alloy is now 24bhn. I know, Bret4257 and Runfiverun, I should have started with straight WW water dropped. I didn't know better before. I will try that next time. One change at a time, right?

[runfiverun]

i am working on the rcbs 55 sp right now and i need a star sizer to load up.
but i went directly to lino waterdropped for the 22's i am also going to pick and choose and weigh mine before even loading, with just a preliminary glance i threw about 10% back right off the bat for minor thngs i would have been able to get an inch with in my other rifles.
look at john's [beagles] post,write-up in the cast pic's section.
i think the 22's are gonna be super [aggravating] and a huge reward when finished.
i ain't ever gonna get to the 375 win,8 mauser, at this rate.

[1Shirt]

I have sort of a fascination with the 22 cal cast blt. Have 225415 HP, and also a double cav regular nose. Both shoot reasonably well in 223 and 22-250, but the regular nose in my K-hornet shoots poorly. The HP version however shoots well in the hornet, and I can stay under 2" on a calm day at 100 for 5 shots, and on rare occaisions get close to an inch. Just sent a 225438 off to Buckshot for HP'ing, and have great hopes for it. Think that there is just something about HP's in Cast that relates to balance, or rotation, or whatever, that tends to make them a bit more accurate than their plain nose relatives. The regular nose 438 shoots well in hornet and 223, but isn't that great in 22-250. Need to spend time with the 222 as well, as it has been sort of neglected in the past few years. I am also quite fond of Lymans 225646, and the old sharp pointed 225450. Both odd looking blts, but they shoot well particularly out of my 22-250 (#1 Ruger), at around the 2250-2300 fps bracket with no leading. I prefer about 22 BH, and water drop everything. I also check and size with a lee push thru die, and then lube on a Lyman. It is an extra step, but I have no nose deformation that way which is what I am looking for by this method. I have learned much from Beagle's article(s), and believe that anyone casting for any of the 22's would be more than well advised to read and heed what John writes. The Old Sgt.Maj. has his stuff together. Lastly Snaggdit, good luck!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[snaggdit]

I finally had the time to go read Beagle's articles. Thanks to John for such diligence and fine write ups! I have more things to check on now. It seems if I want to use 4198, I am way over loaded. He found 12 grains to be good, I was at 17-19! I won't know until I try if 12 will cycle an AR, but hopefully somewhere in the 12-16gr range will with acceptable accuracy.

[mtgrs737]

I bought a Saeco 221 mould but found that the gas check shank was too short and too large to check with Hornady checks. I ended up sending it back to the factory for replacment but was told that it would be 12 weeks before I would get it. They must of been using a worn cherry because they said they would be ordering a new cherry and that was why it was going to take 12 weeks. The shape of the nose looked like it would feed well in an autoloader and it was a 60 grain boolit, that is why I went with the Saeco, now if I could just get some cast up to try. Good luck, keep us informed on your progess!

[Larry Gibson]

snaggdit

Does your AR have a 7, 8, 9, or 12" twist barrel?

Larry Gibson

[snaggdit]

It's my BIL's. I will have to have him find out for me. I was just informed that my upper will still be awile. I ordered a DelTon 20" DTI 1X9 Chrome Molly barrel. I ordered in March. As of last week, they state that they are just filling orders from December [smilie=b: I just called him and left him a voicemail. He should be getting back to me shortly.

[GabbyM]

I wrote this data down in my reload manual since I load 223. It's from a post here.
Skipping the rpm threshold argument here is someones calculations. For top velocity with accuracy.
1-12” twist approximately 2,300 to 2,400 fps. 1-9” twist 1,800 to 1,900 fps.

My book list bullet #225646 with IMR-4198 start load 10.7 grains for 1756 fps. To 14.5 grains for 2223 fps. I think you'll find you need over 12 grains to cycle the action but who knows with these things. You can always get another buffer spring and cut a few loops from it for dedicated use with cast. Figure out some flag to install to show the light spring is in. I'd use a label with trajectory. About the only advantage of a plastic stock is you can use it for a bulletin board without messing up the finish.

[rhubarb]

My experience with 225415 in my 20" 1:9 AR is that less is more. My most accurate loads are around or under 1800 fps.

They cycle and pick up rounds from the magazine, but don't reliably lock the bolt open on an empty mag. A buffer spring is $3-$4.

[snaggdit]

Yeah, I spoke with the BIL. His is also a 1:9. We discussed cutting the spring if necessary and he said the same thing. Easy to change out, cheap to buy a replacement. I plan to load down for 1700-2100 next round of testing. He has the .22 conversion kit for his AR, so it is cheap to play with but would be nice to target shoot with actual .223 rounds. Buying jacketed to load with makes the price prohibitive. Amazingly, with the .22 it is still way accurate. But the 1" at 100 with jacketed .223 goes to 1" at 50 with .22.

[snaggdit]

OK, got to the range again yesterday and tried some loads in the AR again. 4198, 2400 and 3031. I dropped the loads down considerably from the last time. I also changed my OAL to 1.120.

With the 3031, I loaded 16, 17 and 18gr. 16 did not eject but 17 and 18 did. 17gr was a bit more accurate than 18 so I will try between 17 and 18 next time. With the 2400 I had less luck. 10, 11 and 12gr (according to Beagle's data) and no eject. That is supposed to be 1900-2300fps. Not sure I want to keep going up on this powder. The 4198 I loaded 12, 13 and 14gr. No eject until 14gr. I will try again with 14.5, 15 an d 15.5gr. There was no leading in any of the loads. 225415's were sized .225 and lubed with speed green.

It seems like I should be able to find accurate loads without having to cut the spring, although it really wouldn't be a big deal to do so, as discussed. Now my 30-06 is a different problem. I'll start a new thread for that one...

[Bob.]

I'm new to casting but have reloaded for 10 years or so and the 223 is the rifle round I loaded the most and for AR's.
I saw in your first tests that you were checking groups at 25 yards, sometimes you can get too close and the bullet hasn't stabilized yet.

Just a thought after reading your post, great looking bullets by the way!

Bob

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Just a suggestion here....
Don't worry about whether the action will cycle or not right now. I know it's annoying as the dickens when it doesn't, or doesn't lock the bolt properly - but I think your primary goal should be to find out what the most accurate load is with that boolit in that rifle for each given powder.

Right after accuracy should be how clean the rifle is after shooting it. The gas systems in AR-15 and M16 rifles will get clogged up in a hurry if you're using dirty powder. Unfortunately, you've already had to eliminate 4895; that's one of the cleanest burning powders (when used within recommended load parameters, of course).

Once you have the load narrowed down to something both accurate and clean, then it should be a relatively simple matter of getting the action to cycle with it.

[snaggdit]

Yes, you are probably right about concentrating on accuracy first. I didn't eliminate 4895, it just wasn't mentioned in Beagle's article so I tried what was listed. I could revisit that as well. My Lee book gives velocity reduction info for 4895 so I could try it in the 1700 to 2100 range. Also, I was busy firing my 30-06 as the BIL tested the .223 rounds. He was annoying me cause he would fire once then adjust fire to group at the center of the target. I didn't care where the group ended up, as long as there was a group! I will do the testing myself next time, and will try it at 100 yards. I am getting 1" or less (3/8" for the 17gr set) groups at 25, so there should be no reason not to move it out to 100. 4198 was dirty, 3031 was better.

[outdoorfan]

I am also trying to find accurate loads for my 30-06 and .223. My initial testing with the .223 (Savage 1-9 twist) was that 14 grains of H4895 with .5 grain of polyester filler (batting) would register about 1750-1800 fps with sub-minute accuracy for three shots at 100 yards. I need to do more testing to verify that it will hold that consistently. I got that load, more or less, from one of Larry Gibson's posts.

BTW, the above load is with an LBT spitzer that weighs 70 grains after gas check and lubing.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Well, there are other considerations too.
Do you know if the rifle is chambered for .223 Win or 5.56 NATO?
There IS a difference. It should be stamped on the barrel under the handguards, which can be a pain to get off without breaking them.

The .223 Win chambered ARs have less throat than the 5.56 NATO chambered rifles do (among other differences). You should not fire 5.56 NATO milsurp ammo in such rifles, as you may experience unsafe chamber pressure levels; each round fired will be nearly a proof load. However, you may be able to get better accuracy using lead boolits with a .223 Win chambered rifle, as there is less of a "jump" from the case neck to the rifling.

The more of a jump there is from the case neck to the rifling, the more tendency you'll get for the boolit to strip in the rifling. The faster you push the boolit, the worse it'll be. Having boolits cast so that they are both fairly hard and tough will help minimize the stripping, but all good things have a limit somewhere.

The 55 grainer would probably be better suited to my rifle; it's a '74 vintage Colt Sporter AR15 with a 1:12 twist barrel. That twist rate limits me to 55gr boolits, whether plain or in a copper tux. All it's ever been fed is FMJ-word and J-worded HP's. I'm really not inclined to change anything on it, either.

You could probably go up to something heavier though. That would give the powder more time to burn completely.

Suggested starting loads for IMR4895 with a 55 gr J-round is 24 gr (2840fps); you'd have to come down quite a bit for lead boolits. However, 4895 is slower burning than 3031, so you may wind up with a lot of unburnt powder.

[snaggdit]

I am also trying to find accurate loads for my 30-06 and .223. My initial testing with the .223 (Savage 1-9 twist) was that 14 grains of H4895 with .5 grain of polyester filler (batting) would register about 1750-1800 fps with sub-minute accuracy for three shots at 100 yards. I need to do more testing to verify that it will hold that consistently. I got that load, more or less, from one of Larry Gibson's posts.

BTW, the above load is with an LBT spitzer that weighs 70 grains after gas check and lubing.

I will try that range with the 4895. BTW, I know what a boat tail is, but how do you gas check a lead boat tail?

[outdoorfan]

I will try that range with the 4895. BTW, I know what a boat tail is, but how do you gas check a lead boat tail?

I don't think I mentioned boat-tail, but LBT (Lead Bullet Technologies...Veral Smith).

[snaggdit]

Oh, that makes more sense! My brain just thought boat tail when I saw spitzer...

[NHlever]

I've been working with a .223 1-12 twist bolt gun, and so far my most accurate load is 12.5 grains of IMR 4227. I think Lyman lists 14 grains as max. I've been shooting the 22596 mostly, but I did lube some of the new 225415's today. Other loads that show promise are 12.5 grains of AA-1680., 9.0 of Unique, and 9.5 of 2400.