Primers Again

[putteral]

As of a little while ago Graff's had Federal Small Pistol Magnum Primers in stock.

[felix]

We have to be sure of what you are getting now. I STRONGLY suspect the formulation has been changed by decree that all new primers will have a shelf life of two years. That is the scuttlebutt I am obtaining indirectly from a wholesaler, directly through a good American and friend who is NOT a shooter but who is a political observer by serious hobby. ... felix

[captain-03]

Primers are showing up on the shelves of several local establishments here -- went to pick up some powder this morning and my local dealer that in excess of 100K small rifle and 80K small pistol (Remington) sitting on the shelf .... no large rifle or large pistol today, but I was able to get a couple K each about a week ago ..

Price: Remington was $37.95K for small psitol and rifle
Federal was $34.95k for any type except BR or magnum

There is a puchase limit of 1K per customer ... however, in talking to the owner, he permitted the sale of 1K per type.

[fishhawk]

well felix if that indeed is the case i would use the "suspect" new primers up first and sit on the old stock that works for years. but thats just me. steve k

[PatMarlin]

We have to be sure of what you are getting now. I STRONGLY suspect the formulation has been changed by decree that all new primers will have a shelf life of two years. That is the scuttlebutt I am obtaining indirectly from a wholesaler, directly through a good American and friend who is NOT a shooter but who is a political observer by serious hobby. ... felix


WHAT!!!~! ....:groner:

And when was this formulation change supposed to have taken place?

[Storydude]

We have to be sure of what you are getting now. I STRONGLY suspect the formulation has been changed by decree that all new primers will have a shelf life of two years. That is the scuttlebutt I am obtaining indirectly from a wholesaler, directly through a good American and friend who is NOT a shooter but who is a political observer by serious hobby. ... felix

I have to raise the BS flag on this.

Not only is it difficult to make a chemical explosive that has a set Lifetime, It's impractical for the ammo makrers to make 2 different types of primers.....Or do you think the US Gov. will enjoy buying ammo with a 2 year lifespan?

[mike in co]

sorry felix more internet clap trap.......

it would have reguired formulation, testing, and a two yr end of life test.....yomomma has not been in the picture that long.....

if the rumor occured 2 rs after yomomma....then i would look into it...today no way


mike in co

[snaggdit]

I have to raise the BS flag on this.

Not only is it difficult to make a chemical explosive that has a set Lifetime, It's impractical for the ammo makrers to make 2 different types of primers.....Or do you think the US Gov. will enjoy buying ammo with a 2 year lifespan?

I would tend to agree, but who knows anymore?

[snaggdit]

Good to hear primers are starting to appear again. I guess I will have to take the 2 hour trip to the nearest Sheels and see how we are doing in Wisconsin.

[PatMarlin]

I just fired off an email to CCI since they are not answering thier phones...'

Hello CCI,

There is information going around on the internet that your company and other primer manufactures are reformulating your primers to have a shelf life of only 2 years.

Is this true and can you confirm this?

I have reloaded ammo with your primers, and I need to know without one BIT of doubt they will fire and last as long as primers and ammunition have lasted in the past.

If you indeed have changed your primers, and they will not fire and keep with the same shelf life as they have throughout many years past, you have potentially put myself and my family at serious risk, and serious harm on many levels including hunting and self defense for our home.

I take this issue VERY seriously, and have no other choice but to demand an answer to clarify this question.

Sincerely,

[randyrat]

Sporatic supplies... I bought 500 SRPs the top limit they would allow.

[felix]

Very good letter, PAT! Hope the answer is just as emphatic. ... felix

[oldtoolsniper]

Guess I’ll buy a couple of cases of bullet pullers so I can sell them on the auction site in two years! I’ll be rich!

[sundog]

I was hoping that when the glut stopped, we would plenty of fresh supplies available. I was really looking forward to plenty of nice, fresh components, even if the price was higher (not exhorbinant). If these rumors of 'time-out' primers are true, how did it get started. Federal mandate? Somehow, I want to believe it's some kind of vicious rumor. Let's wait and see if they respond. Keep us informed, Pat.

[BeeMan]

Pat,

Thanks for going to the source. Several good points were made above, but it never hurts to ask straight up for an answer.

BeeMan

[mrbill2]

"If these rumors of 'time-out' primers are true, how did it get started. Federal mandate?"
I knew that was coming. Blame it on the government.
Mr. Bill

[IHMSA]

Anyone here got any friends at Hodgdon?

Maybe they can get the real "skinny" on the primer issue.

[leadhead]

How many lawyers do you think would get a lot richer when someone tries to defend there
home and family from some scumbag and there ammo didn't go bang?
They would have a field day sueing the primer manufactures. Doesn't make any sense.
Denny

[JohnH]

Gentleman, it is impossible to formulate a tme delay explosive (and the priming compound is a true explosive) It goes bang or not, there is no inbetween. This same rumor cropped up during the Brady bill/assault weapon ban ammo, powder, primer drought of the early ninties. Speer manual #13 address this issue clearly. I don't rememebr the page nuber but it is in the front section, toward the beginning of the book

[Recluse]

Some of you guys need to go to your chiropractors or physical therapists and have them rub the muscle strain out of your legs so you won't be walking from the bad limp you have from Felix pulling your leg. [smilie=1:

While y'all are taking care of that, I'll be busy talking to my Senator who advises the NSA and CIA and IRS about the super-secret triple probation government black organization that has been super-secretly buying up all the primers, then passing them out to the hoarders.

I want to fill out an application to go to work for that gov't agency.

:coffee:

[462]

First, there were the endless rumors and various conspiracy theories as to why reloading components had become scarce to non-existant. Now, it seems that some product is starting to hit the stores, and we don't need what appears to be more mis-information floating round. All that it will accomplish is to encourage the hoarders to start their panic buying, again.

PatMarlin, thank you taking the time to compose and send that e-mail. I hope you receive a quick and informative response.

[sundog]

Recluse, how did you find out about them. It was SUPPOSED to be a SECRET!

[Heavy lead]

So now we will have pre-mandate and post-mandate primers?! The hoarders will love this. Now how to track them? Maybe we need disolving firing pins instead, 2 years and they are out. I'm thinking I need to invent a flint fired smokeless cartridge revolver, or maybe hook a bic lighter to a 1911, no trigger pull just put the roller where the hammer is and move it out of the way quick.:roll:

[Recluse]

Recluse, how did you find out about them. It was SUPPOSED to be a SECRET!

It was EASY.

I simply used "Elected Official Bait" to entice the Senator into spilling the secrets. You know, a bottle of fine wine and a call girl. Give any elected official THAT and they'll tell you whatever you want to know.

:coffee:

[RugerFan]

Gentleman, it is impossible to formulate a tme delay explosive (and the priming compound is a true explosive) It goes bang or not, there is no inbetween. This same rumor cropped up during the Brady bill/assault weapon ban ammo, powder, primer drought of the early ninties. Speer manual #13 address this issue clearly. I don't rememebr the page nuber but it is in the front section, toward the beginning of the book

EXACTLY!!! This is the same disinformation that started the last primer scare and the resultant hoarding. This is nothing but rumor and will result in even more hoarding. How about if we quit spreading rumors and try to get back to enjoying our hobby in some semblance of normalcy?

[Huntducks]

I received this from CCI back in March.

We've seen unprecedented demand for certain calibers of ammunition and

> the primers that charge them over the past several years. We've added

> capacity to meet the increasing demand and are fulfilling backorders.

>
> We are not manufacturing primers that are 'dated'. This is one of the

> many rumors that is circulating these days. Linda

>
>
> Linda Olin

> CCI/Speer Technical Services

> 2299 Snake River Ave.

> Lewiston, ID 83501

From the NRA-ILA

Rumor Control--Debunking the Latest Legends

Friday, February 06, 2009

Lately, the rumor mills have been running at full capacity. Among other things, we've heard phony tales circulating about such things as guns being banned for the elderly, ammunition with expiration dates, and a prohibition on gun and ammunition imports. This sort of scuttlebutt is nothing new, but let's try to shed some light on these dark assertions.

"Guns to be Banned for Elderly" was the cry. The "report" assured readers that Deputy Attorney General Designate David Ogden has circulated a draft of an executive order in which "firearms possession would be severely limited to people over 60."

This report is bogus and, in fact, it was labeled as "satire" on the website where it first appeared. There was an isolated case last year in which an 81-year-old Delaware woman was initially delayed in receiving approval to purchase a firearm based on her age and gender. The delay on the approval was eventually lifted--10 days after the initial application and after significant pressure was brought to bear by NRA.

Then, not long ago, the rumor regarding ammunition primers "expiring" resurfaced. The rumor was that the government would require all primers in ammunition to contain something that would cause them to permanently fail after two years. In other words, no primer = no spark = no burning gunpowder = no moving bullet = useless ammunition.

We received hundreds of calls and letters about this during the early-Clinton panic buying period in 1993, and that was before most people had the Internet and the spread of misinformation was more limited. There was no such proposal then, and we have not heard of any such proposal now.

The 1993 rumor may have been a result of the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan's (D-NY) proposal to put a colossal tax on certain handgun ammunition. (Senator Moynihan had the bizarre idea that ammunition was only good for a couple of years, and that his tax would quickly dry up the supply.) In fact, properly stored ammunition remains usable for decades.

Since the first rumors about such proposals in the early 1990s, two inventors have actually received a patent for a chemical process that would supposedly allow manufacture of primers that would go dead after a specific period of time. But an invention doesn't actually have to work, let alone be a good idea, to get a patent--patents have been issued for such odd ideas as crank-operated pneumatic shoelaces, a "banana protective device," and the use of explosives to tenderize meat. And it's hard to imagine anyone making or buying ammunition that's doomed to fail, without a government mandate--a mandate that no one, so far, has actually proposed.

Additional rumors have recently been circulating about stopping gun and/or ammunition imports. And once again, NRA and representatives of firearm importers know of no real measures proposing this, yet.

It is important to note that the President does have broad power with respect to imports; we've obviously seen that power expressed in the 1989 and 1998 import bans on various semi-auto rifles, and the 1993 "assault pistol" import ban. But President Obama has yet to propose any new import ban (though that would certainly not be out of the question).

Finally, a lot of these rumors involve supposedly secret "executive orders." Even a real executive order--a formal document reviewed by the Justice Department before the President signs it--does not have the force of law; it just serves as guidance for Cabinet officers. The same goes for other kinds of documents, like the presidential memoranda that previous presidents used to impose import bans on various kinds of firearms.

And it's worth mentioning that these orders and memoranda aren't secret. President Obama's executive orders and presidential memoranda are available online at http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/executive_orders/.

In fact, all of the anti-gun memoranda by past presidents were very well publicized, because the presidents who issued them wanted to get media attention for their actions.

Now don't take all this to mean that we underestimate our anti-gun opponents, or that we don't believe they would happily and readily seize the opportunity to adopt and enforce any of these measures. We know full well that they would. Rather, our message is this: Rumors abound, so don't believe everything you read. If it's a legitimate concern, rest assured your NRA-ILA will promptly address it and will give you the straight story.

PLEASE STOP THESE BS RUMORS.

Next it will be brass that desolves in 2 years .

[Jim]

Ever since I joined this group, what, back in '02 I think, I canceled my subscription to Star and National Enquirer. I can get it all right here![smilie=1:

[soldierbilly1]

Felix: timed primers are an ancient rumor. they can't, they won't, any formulation change would create serious legal, political, ethical, and sales issue problems. As a retired chemist, any formulation change would most likely create some immediate 'performance' change. Aint gonna happen.
By the way, where are the primers?
billy boy

[jdgabbard]

Gentleman, it is impossible to formulate a tme delay explosive (and the priming compound is a true explosive) It goes bang or not, there is no inbetween. This same rumor cropped up during the Brady bill/assault weapon ban ammo, powder, primer drought of the early ninties. Speer manual #13 address this issue clearly. I don't rememebr the page nuber but it is in the front section, toward the beginning of the book

Its page 38, under the title "Rumors! Rumors!"

[PatMarlin]

I received this from CCI back in March...
PLEASE STOP THESE BS RUMORS.

Next it will be brass that desolves in 2 years .

Well now you see what happens when you start to get me wound up ...:mrgreen:

[IHMSA]

Actual e-mail reply from Hodgdon:

These rumors are crap. Not true. Never have been true and never will be true.



Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of fine propellants:
Hodgdon Powder Company
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Powders
GOEX Powder Company
Pyrodex
Triple Seven
White Hots

[MtGun44]

I'll ask Hodgdon and see what they know about this primer rumor, but the smell of BS is
in the air.

Bill

[JIMinPHX]

There have been rumors about powders & primers with limited shelf life going around for years. I haven't found any yet, but it would not surprise me if someone in big government were pushing to get it done.

As for the people that say such time sensitive chemicals can't be produced. You are just plain wrong. You can't make something that will stop working all of a sudden on a particular exact date, but you can sure make chemicals that degrade over time. It would not be hard to make something that has a 50% success rate after 2 years & a 20% success rate after 3 years, etc.

[jameslovesjammie]

> Linda Olin

> CCI/Speer Technical Services

Anyone else find it funny that Linda OLIN works at CCI? Must just be my dry sense of humor.

[jdgabbard]

Hey you know what, this rumor could work to our advantage if everyone spread it that the current primers on the shelf have a 2 year life... Then we'd be able to buy what we want when we wanted...

[inuhbad]

I would tend to agree, but who knows anymore?

I have some friends that work for a manufacturer... I'll ask to see what they say. Impossible? No. Improbable? DEFINITELY.

[Bill*]

This rumor may have been started by speculators trying to unload their hordes now that primers are beginning to show up again ("Buy mine....They're the old, BETTER ones. That's why I have to charge more.") Well, I wouldn't put it past em [smilie=1:

[softpoint]

The media has already debunked the primer shelf life rumor by not saying anything. They would have broken in on thier sympathetic coverage of the death of a child molester to squeal with delight about the further erosion of gunowner's rights.
Now, that I said that, (and I feel better) The primer life thing really is a rumor. I'm not surprised that is has resurfaced, though. It did start back during the clinton admin. It could have been resurfaced by people trying to keep the prices way up (ie. Gougers):Fire:

[PatMarlin]

From Winchester today:

Attn; Pat;



This is in reply to your recent e-mail regarding the above subject.



There is NO TRUTH to the information you are referring to in regards to Winchester changing its primers in such a way as to give them a shelf life period.

Winchester HAS NOT changed and has NO PLANS to change its primers.



There is NO SHELF LIFE PERIOD on ANY Winchester Ammunition products as long as they are stored correctly. That is in a COOL and DRY place.



If we can be of further assistance please feel free to contact us again.








R. (Art) Ambrosi
Winchester Ammunition

East Alton, Illinois

[Storydude]

LOL I had family that worked at the East Alton olin plant.


They heard about this in 1993 too LOL

[inuhbad]

Yup. My friends also all said it's bullsh!t too.

[Cadillo]

Gentleman, it is impossible to formulate a tme delay explosive (and the priming compound is a true explosive) It goes bang or not, there is no inbetween. This same rumor cropped up during the Brady bill/assault weapon ban ammo, powder, primer drought of the early ninties. Speer manual #13 address this issue clearly. I don't rememebr the page nuber but it is in the front section, toward the beginning of the book


I don't think that he was putting forth the idea of a "time delay" explosive as you mentioned, but rather the prospect of a priming compound that might be rendered inert after a certain predictable shelf life. Hatcher's Notebook contains a chapter on gun corrosion and the role of corrosive vs non-corrosive primers in that regard. Hatcher mentions that the military was slow to transition to non-corrosiove primers due to the limited shelf life of some of the initially tested priming compounds. Quote:

" These mixtures all tended to become insensitive and to suffer from hangfires and missfires after storage for a year or two, especially in a warm damp place......."

If one accepts that as truth, it is not a great leap to believe that priming compounds with a predictable useful lifespan could easily be manufactured,especially when one considers the advances made in chemistry since 1947.

While I believe that it could be easily done, I certainly hope that it never comes to pass. We need to all remember that the 2nd Ammendment makes no mention of ammunition or components. To think that the courts would rule that their availability and or possession are thus implied is wishful thinking in today's political environment.

Anyone interested in Hatcher's addressing the issue of prrimeers read about it in or about page 357 of "Hatcher's Notebook". :smile:

[PatMarlin]

Subject: CCI.com - Ask CCI Form

Pat: don't know where such rumors begin but it is pure horsepuckie.
Primers do not have a built-in shelf life.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Sr. Technical Coordinator CCI
(866) 286-7436 ext 5351

[pps]

So now we will have pre-mandate and post-mandate primers?! The hoarders will love this. Now how to track them? Maybe we need disolving firing pins instead, 2 years and they are out. I'm thinking I need to invent a flint fired smokeless cartridge revolver, or maybe hook a bic lighter to a 1911, no trigger pull just put the roller where the hammer is and move it out of the way quick.:roll:

Didn't Taurus already perfect that type of technology? :kidding:

[parrott1969]

what is wrong with you people? you all seem eager to spread propaganda. by the way, if you bothered listening to NRA news you would know that this is nothing but propaganda! just to be clear it seems to me that you people have opened your mouth's and inserted your feet!

[PatMarlin]

Do I here a parrot? ...:mrgreen:

[felix]

The NRA will give and take in this political environment like any other organization. Has it been that long that you have forgotten the rules of engagement in DC? ... felix

[geargnasher]

Pat Marlin, Thanks for writing that letter and posting the reply, saved me the time since I get wound-up just like you!

Gear

[GabbyM]

Lots of freedom loving Americans think they can count on teh NRA to uphold the cause. AS a member of the UAW since 1977 I've seen misguided workers put their trust in the Democrat party and the union. CAn't se where that's worked out all that well for them. Of course I'm a big *** for not following the flock over the hill.

remember the old saying? Something like. Sometimes your not paranoid they are after you.

[snaggdit]

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that everyone is not out to get you.

[parrott1969]

poly says, felix lay down the crack pipe and come back to reality. Yes we have a dumb ass liberal president, a liberal house and senate. But among all these libs are a bunch of 2nd amendment supporters. If memory serves me correctly, we have more pro 2nd amendment suppporting politicans now than we ever have. If your going to have a bunch of libs running the country you need to count your blessings that the majority of them are gun owners.

[felix]

Poly also says he likes crackers, but the cat likes steaks. Have you priced a good piece of prime meat, when indeed it can be found? It's all going, except for a trickle here and there, to the far east who can well afford it now. ... felix

[Heavy lead]

Remember when..........
This same line of crap was said about Japan laying waste to us.

What Happened man!



We blew their doors, now Toyota is in trouble too.
Now I'm not saying China is not a serious player, because they are, but we and freedom will pull out of this, the whole lot of us. It'll take someone a whole lot more sinister than the present administration to undo US. After all it is clear in the bible that ALL the world would follow the anti-Christ,

Even us Conservatives

[PatMarlin]

So Sir Felix...

How long is a biblical generation anyway? ....:mrgreen:

[GabbyM]

Anyone ever use Sellier and Bellot Large Rifle Primers ?

I saw some a week or so back on Sinclair web catalog for a few hours. I passed on them since they didn't have the powder I wanted. making the haz mat fee a bit high on 1K primers. I'm looking for a LRP to set off ball powder better than the Fed Match I've been using. I have some Remingtons here I've not tried yet on the WW760. Then have some Alliant R-17 to try in my 243 AI and 270 Win. The Federals should set that off well but I didn't have much luck with R-15 velocity deviation.

My local dealer is selling primers for $30 per K when he gets them in. Like he says. "People will remember the price gougers."

5K primers went to high bid auction on reloadersauction dot com for a hair over $100. Standard price or a few bucks less !

I think we'll see a lot of product suddenly hit the market soon. Their must be basements full of goods out their. I don't plan on doing those fools any favors. I've seen them advertising 8lb jugs of powder for just short of $400. Not seen any sell though. Except for the closed auctions where you can't see the buyers ID. So you don't know who bought it or how much they paid. Probably just shill to make people think goods are selling at those prices.

MidSouth is taking back orders with a estimated delivery date. Some brands the date is next year while others It's just a few weeks. My dealer has been getting 50K in once a month or so. I've not asked him to set me any back. Have enough for this year and maybe a few more if I don't get my tail out of the house more often.

Good luck to you searchers.