Outtakes on an interesting discussion re accuracy/components

[Recluse]

I was thoroughly enjoying the "Lube & Accuracy" discussion, even after tempers, egos and feeling got a bit flared. Doesn't really bother me--I admire the passion that such people put behind their statements. Sure beats fence-sitters. :)

Anyhow, in perusing through the discussion, I found some real gems and decided to consolidate some of them.


The big difference is that some see LUBE and ALLOY compositions as components to a load and others do not. Some some see charts and graphs and statistacal figures as components to a load...others do not.

Been reading here for five years. Sometimes I'm amazed at the number of boolit casters I read or meet who pay little attention to lube. They're only concern is that it doesn't cause leading--and that's it. Or it doesn't need heat. Or. . .

Early on, that was my thinking as well. But when I went from tumble-lubing to lubesizing, then back, then back again and then some of both, I realized how integral a lube can be to the loading process.

Same with alloy composition. Lube and alloy composition and choices are part of what makes casting what it is, and another significant factor that helps us further customize loads to our specific firearms.


I agree Bret, many only see what they want to see. This particularly the case when only one group, usually of only 3 but sometimes 5 shots is looked at.

I usually shoot minimum of three-shot groups when developing/testing new long gun loads. Typically, my starting point is four to five--just to see if the load will make it onto the paper. Out of all the loads tested, I pick the most promising one or two, then start honing them down.

Once I can get a nice three-shot group consistently, I then load up around fifteen to twenty, then shoot in four or five shot groups. If they all come up good, then I'M good with the results.

Nonetheless, my heart STILL beats a little quicker when I see a three or four-shot group cloverleafed on the target. Don't care what anyone else says or what any gun writers think. When I see a touching group, I'm STOKED BABY!


Never said Unique was superior for all applications or that it would match the velocity with accuracy of a slower powder but I can dump 9 grs in a 30-30, 10 grs in a 308 case , or 11 grs in an 06 case and spend a nice relaxing day sitting at the bench punching paper or shooting at cans.

I don't approach every gun like it's a wild beast that has to be tamed, with some guns it's nice to just sit back and smell the roses. I think it's forgotten sometimes, and I'm as guilty of this as anyone I know, that shooting is supposed to be fun and you don't always have to be the bestest, fastest, biggest, or knowingest.

I just relearned this last year and my enjoyment in the sport has increased 10 fold. For everything but my bench guns Unique or something similar fills the bill. And that includes everything from the 30-30 to the 50-70 in rifles and all my handguns.

And this gem, from Pat, should be permanently engraved on all of our reloading benches.

I loaded up some light Unique loads for my 30-30 and 30-06 and shot them the other day. I learned just how much fun plinking with lever guns and some of my hunting calibers can truly be. What's more, the cost was mere pennies per round.

It was thoroughly enjoyable. And that is something I think we sometimes forget in our quest for the perfect boolit and perfect load.

:coffee:

[leftiye]

The subject of lubes is a vital one to our area of endeavor. Too bad the discussion went to worrying about methodology, and whether or not scientific method was followed and whether or not enough shots were fired. I myself don't see any room for dismissing the importance of lube to a bare boolit - GG boolit shooter.

[Bret4207]

I look at it this way- DO what works for YOU, but don't expect everyone else to kowtow to your "answers". I truly believe this is one of those hobbies that has a lot of roads to success. It's when the demeaning ego's overtake the exchange of information ( and I can be as bad as anyone else, I know!) that the whole thing gets worthless.

[9.3X62AL]

There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat, for sure. Anytime someone discovers A Truth and tries to tout it as The Truth--there will be controversy. Very little in this hobby field is "absolute", and it pays dividends to have another route to follow when your Usual Method ends up on the rocks.

That paragraph by Pat I. says VOLUMES. When we lose sight of the enjoyment derived from our avocations, we are at our most myopic.

[tmak]

im kind of new here but not so new in casting and lube making. i agree with brett there are a lot of right ways to get what you believe to be good groups. that said the next guy could thing those groups very impressive the next looks down his nose at them. the club where i shoot there are both types of shooters which is fine as long as we all learn and move forward. in these times of anti guns it's very surprising to me that the shotgun guys don't like the rifle guys the rifle guys don't like the handgun guys. its even bad in their own groups trap shooter don't like skeet shooters. cowboy guys don't like uspas shooters. it keeps going on and on. we all are shooters trying to have a good time and maybe learn a thing or two. i'm off my soap box now i needed to say my piece. i want to thank all those that add to all of our learning. in reguards i lube i always look at the 22lr pure lead and wax 1200-1400 fps i get no leading in my guns. just my simple thoughts.

[Doc_Stihl]

I find a certain amount of "knowledge" is good. Knowing too much will sometimes mucks things up.




"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." --Mark Twain

[jdgabbard]

I consider each and every firearm to be just like a individual person. If you think about it, while must of us like chocolate, there are some that do not. While most of us like beer, there are a few of us out there that don't drink, or drink only wine.

When we take this into consideration it is easy to see why what works for one revolver or rifle might not work in one that is of identical make and owned by another member on the other side of the country. There are too many factors to included in this.

For example some people have had bad luck with the Old NRA Lube (paraffin, beeswax, and petro jelly), some have had outstanding luck with it. And I have a mixture of the two - No leading, good accuracy, and lube berries left behind in the bore of the revolver (not big, but the lube is so tacky that it leaves little berries behind).

And what Pat said about Unique, well I'll tell you I LOVE Unique. There is nothing else that comes as close to being universal as it. Light loads, that amazingly still drive the boolit at a speed needed for taking of small game. In handguns it can give amazing loads. I have a .38spl load with it that is a hard hitting, very very accurate load. With groupings on a iron sighted Model 65 Smith measuring .80" at 25 yards. Pretty darn good in my opinion.

[theperfessor]

+1 for Unique - it is truly unique.

Just a comment about the fun aspects of our hobby. I have handguns, revolver and semi-auto, ranging in caliber from .22 to .45 and cost from $200 to $1000 +. I enjoy them all, but when I really want to relax and enjoy shooting without having to fiddle, dink, and over-analyze everything I grab an old blue-worn skinny barrel Model 10 that I gave $225 for some years back and an ammo can of .38s and head to the range. Usually something in the 150 -170 gr range over Unique, BE or 231. Good accuracy, no sights to adjust, mild recoil and report, smooth worn-in trigger, no brass to pick up, etc. Just pure shooting fun!

The members here are all probably much more knowledgeable and serious about guns and reloading than your average shooter, and that's good. But sometimes at the end of a shooting session I want to walk away feeling the pure bliss of a 10 yr old who just spent the afternoon bouncing tin cans with a .22.

[Bob Krack]

Wow!

I love shooting a 1911 double-tap at 5 to 10 yards and making every shot hit a 1 gallon milk jug.

When hunting, I try as hard as possible for a one hole group (one shot).

I have a buddy whose only interest is in 5 shot clover leaves at one hunnert yards with a Savage .308.

I have a true friend that hunts with a specially modified Model 70 with it's trigger mechanism connected to a camera shutter. No bolt, just a camera with the crosshairs in the scope picture.

If ya enjoy what ya do and how ya do it without hurtin someone else - I guess ya won!

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

Just a thought on lubes; there are many that work. Most are comercial and there are a couple home grown recipe's that work well also. Some work for both low and high velocity some for just high velocity and some for just low velocity. What one must do is to use a good lube for the right purpose. Having thoroughly tested numerous lubes if one is seeking high velocity then the lubes for that work about equally. If seeking low velocity then those for such work about equally. If seeking an all around lube it is hard to beat one of the many 50/50 alox/beeswax lubes. Worst type of lube is that crap that comes on most commercial cast bullets. Seems it's only there for the convenience of the bullet caster, not the shooter.

Point is; good lubes work equally well and bad ones also work equally as bad. Everyone needs to address what their cast bullet requirements are and use an appropriate lube for that purpose. If an approprite lube is used in the first place then accuracy will be affected by other factors.

Larry Gibson

[jdgabbard]

Well put, Larry.

[leftiye]

Larry, You're sure that you just haven't put the pedal down enough to see the difference?

[6.5 mike]

I think theperfessor has the right idea. While we all chase the 1 hole group, or the search for the best possible combination of componets, sometimes you need to walk away.
Taking your favorite firearm, rifle ,pistol, or wheelgun, & going ,if you can, for a walk through the woods or wherever suits you. I know some of my most relaxing times have been in the middle of nowhere with a good .22 handgun. If the wild tin can is about to attack you, by all means defend yourself.
I feel that reloading relaxes me. Now I find casting also does. If I can take something I find laying in a parking lot & turn it into something usable I'm happy. And, yes, I check the parking lots. Doesn't everyone?
I found this site looking for cast loads for 3 old rifles, a krag, a 99 sav, & a m91 remmy. Now that has snowballed into others, I had no idea how lucky I was on that nite.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, You're sure that you just haven't put the pedal down enough to see the difference?

Would you care to clarify what "put the pedal down" means?

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Gee, which pedal might I possibly mean? Must be the brake pedal. Do you have anything resembling a brake pedal on your loads? Velocity pedal Larry. Maybe "put the hammer down" would communicate better for you?

[Larry Gibson]

leftiye

I assumed that was what you meant but we just never know sometimes....at any rate apparently your definition and mine differ on "put the pedal down" regarding cast bullet velocities. I have been pushing my .308Ws up into the 2600+ fps range quite regularly. With regards to this thread and the post I made above on my lube tests I have ran them at 1850 fps, 23-2400 fps and at 2600+ fps. The answer is always the same. I have pushed over 2800 fps but accuracy was pretty lousy. In the 14" twist Palma rifle 20 shot groups of 2-3 moa are regualarly done with the first 3-5 usully going into 1.5 moa or less.

As a matter of fact I have another lube test loaded up with 311466 using 5 different lubes and all of componants that have proved to be the most accurate. This test is for the M70 Match rifle with 12" twist and the velocity should be in the 2300-2400 fps range which is at the top end of the RPM threshold. I will then use this load and tweak it in my 12" twist M1A. The old M1A has a lot of rounds through it but still shoots decently for a rack grade. My goal is 2.5-3 moa with 311466 in the 2300-2400 fps range.

Just a couple days ago I was also getting 2 to 2.5 moa 10 shot groups with the GB 311041 (acually it is more like a 314041) out of the Palma rifle at 2400 fps.

So to get to the point; I'm not sure if 2300 upwards of 2600+ fps with a regular cast bullet is "putting the hammer down" to you but it is to me.

Larry Gibson

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Larry, thanks for sharing all your testing, it is very interesting and some of us don't have the time to invest in such an endeavor, if you find "the load" that will touch 2600fps and shoot
11/2"-2 MOA with your M1A1 please share...I have one of these fine rifles that I would like to feed a little faster cast boolit load, I have loads around 2000fps that work, just don't have time to search for the load...Thanks Again

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, thanks for sharing all your testing, it is very interesting and some of us don't have the time to invest in such an endeavor, if you find "the load" that will touch 2600fps and shoot
11/2"-2 MOA with your M1A1 please share...I have one of these fine rifles that I would like to feed a little faster cast boolit load, I have loads around 2000fps that work, just don't have time to search for the load...Thanks Again

Slow elk

Wow, I am looking for 2.5 - 3 moa at 2300 - 2400 fps out of my 12" twist M1A. That 1.5 - 2 moa load at 2600 fps is a pretty tall order! I'm not even doing that with my 14" twist Palma bolt action. I am managing an average 10 shot group size with it of around 2.5 -3 moa at 2600+ fps though. I am going to continue to test so you never know what I might come up with. I will surely keep every one here posted on my findings.

I'd like to mention that I also learn from most of the posters here and also appreciate everyone's endeavor's to better our hobby/sport.

Larry Gibson

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Slow elk

Wow, I am looking for 2.5 - 3 moa at 2300 - 2400 fps out of my 12" twist M1A. That 1.5 - 2 moa load at 2600 fps is a pretty tall order! I'm not even doing that with my 14" twist Palma bolt action. I am managing an average 10 shot group size with it of around 2.5 -3 moa at 2600+ fps though. I am going to continue to test so you never know what I might come up with. I will surely keep every one here posted on my findings.

I'd like to mention that I also learn from most of the posters here and also appreciate everyone's endeavor's to better our hobby/sport.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry , it doesn't hurt to wish , if I can get another 2-300fps out of my
M1A and 2-3 moa , I will be a happy man . 2600fps with the bolt gun is very interesting also , 10 shot string @ 2600 into 3" is very interesting:mrgreen: , so I'm looking forward to your findings:-D

Thanks for your reply, and good shooting to you:drinks: