Felix, more on Reloader 7

[44man]

I took the chronograph down to check loads in the 45-70 and .475 bfr's. In the 45-70, with my 317 gr WLNGC and 45 gr's I got an average of 1345.5 fps. The extreme spread was 62.4. I then tried the 411 gr boolit and got 1327.7 fps and an ES of 103.2.
With my load of 4759 I got 1632.2 fps, ES of 37.8. That is a difference of 286.7 fps.
In the .475 I started with 25 gr's and went to 28.5.
25 was 924 fps and 28.5 was 1103.8. I had a piece of paper to record on and it was covered with unburned powder. Groups were not good.
With 296 I get 1329.1 fps with my 411 WFN and 1340.9 fps with my 429 WLNGC. Both boolits printed 1" groups at 50 yd's. The difference was 237.1 fps from the highest load of RX-7.
So it looks like I will not be using this powder. I now have to find another use for the rest of the can. It is just too slow for handguns.

[StarMetal]

44man,

That help confirm my suspicions about it being too slow in handguns. While I searched heavy handgun loads I saw no mention of using it.

Don't have any rifle calibers you can use it in?

How about scissors?

[felix]

WHAT A BUMMER! The 94 shoots it fine enough for 100 yards anyway, at targets the size of beer cans. Using 300 grainers only. Obviously not for lighter boolits, or for shorter barrels. Anyway, a very good show on your part, 44Man. Yogi says it ain't over until it's over, and it looks like the chrono was the fat lady doing her song. ... felix

[fourarmed]

44man, what primers were you using? My limited experience with Rel-7 in pistol cases shows that different primers produce markedly different results.

[felix]

Robert, that would be very good to know! Which one proved the best? ... felix

[Pepe Ray]

44man:
Am I confused?
Your using rifle cartridges in handguns(revolvers?)?
Isn't this outside Felix's contention? Re; combustion chamber size.
Pepe Ray

[felix]

Yes and No, Pepe. It has more to do with barrel length, not the chamber size per se. The latter is my personal concern because I have to have low pressure, but greedy in terms of getting a fair amount of velocity. I don't need the power, but I do need a flat trajectory to 120 yards no matter what gun I shoot. I hate to see this caliber, 45 colt, sitting around doing nothing more than an ACP when I have a gun with sufficient strength. It is the case strength at the bottom of the case is where I don't want to go bananas and destroy cases for just foolin' around at the riva'. In a hunting situation, I could care less about the cases. ... felix

[Pepe Ray]

Felix;
I've never used Re-7 in anything. Reading threads here regarding its use in .45Colt (+P)? intrigued me. I jumped to this thread finding 44man giving stats of its use using 45-70 and 475BFR cases and finding it to be unsatisfactory.
Show me the relationship. thanks. Pepe Ray

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I'm not sure what you mean about the 45 LC sitting around not doing much more then the 45acp means, but I take it to mean that in low pressure loadings it's not much more then a 45acp. Well let's stay in one bullet weight, say the 250-255. The 45 LC will even beat the 45acp using that bullet with black powder in the original loading!! The old Speer #9 manual has a 45LC section for Rugers and TC's, but in my opinion they are very mild, but would shoot flat enough for you I believe. Felix I have Winchester brass from the early 1970's that I'm still shooting, that still fit my shellholders, and were even fired out of my fat chambered M94. With loads from target mild to crazy. I'm thinking you had some very bad experiences with 45LC brass at one time or another.

On RL7, you got me thinking how it might be out of my 8 3/8 barreld Smith M25 in 45LC.

Joe

[fourarmed]

I was using it in a .44-40 rifle. Rifle primers produced significantly higher and more consistent velocities than did pistol primers. Much better groups, too. I believe I used WW LR and Fed 150 LP, but I don't have my notes here. At any rate, the difference was surprisingly large. I don't recall the numbers now, but I posted them here within the last year.

[44man]

In the 45-70 I use Fed large rifle primers and in the .475 I use large pistol magnum primers. The 45-70 has a 10" barrel and the .475 is 7-1/2". The 10" in .475 was a special order so I didn't get it. It would have cost me $300 more then I paid for the gun.
The 45-70 is hard to load for with the large case and short barrel. Have to choose the right powder but pressure is low for the velocity. Powders that work great in a rifle are too slow for the shorter barrel. 4198 works great with jacketed bullets but I don't like it with cast. A little faster powder works better.
In the .475, 296 seems to be the best and almost every boolit I shoot can hold an inch or a lot less at 50 yd's.
I was hoping RX-7 would give me close to the same velocity with lower pressure but it did not pan out. It does not burn fast enough to use it all up in the shorter barrels. The noise it makes shows a lot is burning out in front of the muzzle. IT IS LOUD! I think it would work great in a rifle though. Seems to be a very stable powder and some of the SD readings were very low.
So far 4759 has proven very good in the 45-70 but it might be sensitive to temperature. It seems to burn faster in cold weather. I got 100 fps more velocity now then I did in the summer.
I need something a step or two faster then 4198 to try.

[felix]

Waste of time, Joe, with that cylinder gap. The pressure is low to start with, and with that gap the pressure will drop to zero permitting the powder to produce a loud fart. That is what happened to the 44Man. So, consider the RL7/WW680 speed a strikeout with that gap until a better idea comes along. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Reloader 7 isn't worth a darn if you want to shoot handgun bullets like a handgun. That's why they work great in a rifle.

Translation: If you want to shoot cast bullets that slide through the throats, RL7 is not for you. Doesn't matter if you have a 30" barrel. If you want to choke a handgun like a rifle should be, then RL7 starts to shine.

[felix]

Pepe, RL7/WW680 was chosen because of its small granule size, and it is slow enough not to blow out the primer pockets while using heavy boolits with a full pistol case of powder. The 44-40 case is even bigger than the 45 colt and would work there just as well. The 44mag case is too small while using heavy boolits. There you would need what is called a 445, an extended mag case. We know that the 296 speed is about perfect for these applications, but the 44-40 and 45 Colt cases are not up to handling it over the long haul. ... felix

[felix]

44Man, N120 costs too much. It is a fast 4198, and like 4198 it is a single base fairly large granule powder. Not what we need. Check out Norma 200. What is its granule size? Is it single base or double? If it's a small granule double, where can we get some to try? Might try a gunshow, looking for a half empty can of any of these in the speed range. ... felix

5744 might be the best bet in the 45-70, even with the large granules because it has 20 percent nitroglycerin. That nitro will produce the power needed.

Pepe, we are trying to find a powder that will deliver a long period of average pressure, rather than one using a spike of high pressure for its payload. Like BA says, long average pressure in a revolter won't be able to be utilized. ... felix

[44man]

Felix, I was going through my powder drawer and found a full can of WW680. It must be 45-47 yr's old. Still looks and smells good. I can't find anything on it for the 45-70. Any idea as to a starting load?

[Bass Ackward]

Felix, I was going through my powder drawer and found a full can of WW680. It must be 45-47 yr's old. Still looks and smells good. I can't find anything on it for the 45-70. Any idea as to a starting load?


Funny how this goes isn't it?

Last night I was given 2 cans of 5066, three pounds of 630, one of 680, a can of AA1680, and one H-450. So I have to learn some things all over again. All of it .... appears to be OK.

[felix]

That is a great find for both of you, 44man and BA. The ball powders should be perfect in all respects assuming normal storage conditions. BA, see if you can do some research on that 5066, though. I don't remember anything much about it, it's composition, et.al. It is an early formulation, and that's about it. 630 is the only powder that I have used that is exactly between BlueDot and 2400 in burn rate while in the large proverbial pistol cases. When used below 80 percent capacity, let's say, it speeds up to BlueDot speed, like at 9 grains in a 222 with real boolits. 630 appears to be a mix of two distinct ball powders, and was taken off the market because of this unpredictable burn speed. I also have about 3 pounds of it left. 44man, I would use 680 at the very same VOLUME as RL7 for starters. However, I don't think it will work any better than RL7 in the revolters. ... felix

[44man]

What else Have I got to do? It means more shooting which is GOOD.

[lovedogs]

You're all right. Reloder 7 won't work in this application. Have you tried 4198, 5744, 2400, or Unique? I use long-barrels on rifles so can use RL7 but have found 5744 to work better. But I have two friends who swear by 2400 and Unique. You might want to try them.

[44man]

Lovedogs, I use 4198 with jacketed in the 45-70 with good results but it reaches high pressure very fast with just a small addition of powder when using cast boolits in the 45-70. Accuracy with cast was not good and 1/2 gr more stuck cases on a few shots. Velocity jumped very high on several shots and the rest were normal for the load. Being that sensitive gives me pause when shooting in all weather conditions.
I wanted to try 5744 because I can use it in my rifle too but the store was out of it.
4759 has been the most accurate and cases fall out. I use a pinch of Dacron over it. Once in a while I get a shot with lower velocity and a few with high velocity.
I can't explain these so I left out the filler and they do the same and accuracy is still good. I keep close watch on the case tension and sort them but it has not helped.
I think it is one of the problems of huge case capacity in a revolver that can't utilize a slow powder.
The hunt goes on as I look for more money to buy powder. I wanted to try black powder for fun but Magnum Research says "absolutely no black powder." Can any of you see a reason for this other then crudding up the gun?

[felix]

I guess sooner or later, mostly sooner, you will have to take the gun all apart to clean it properly. Sounds like that is too much work for me, even though I might have the time to do so. BP soot can become very caustic to metals in a short time. ... felix

[Blacktail 8541]

I've read your post over and over trying to come up with an answer as to why yuo had trouble with the case head area of your 45 colt brass; as that is the strongest area of any brass, There are several answers that could fit the reasons, but only a couple probables.
1. You had an old bolloon head case sneak in that was designed for black powder. which has a very weak case head.
2. Your loads are not generateing sufficient pressure for the case to expand and grip the walls of the cylinder properly which produces exess case head thrust and will destroy brass very quickly.
Modern colt brass is not weak, Dick casull used it in developing the 454, he is a very Knowledgable man, original 454 casull brass was nothing more than 45 brass with an extra draw used to make it longer, thus it would be thinner at the case head. Many test have confirmed the strengths of 45 colt brass. If you are still leary of your past experience, use 454 brass trimed down, if your cylinder is real tight you may have to ream it , but if it is just a little tighter than normal you will not have to.

[felix]

Actually, Blacktail, the Casull brass is narrower than the standard Colt brass. This makes the chamber(s) have even more clearance. That is what I am fighting here. The chamber is far too large in diameter. Even brand new brass exhibts the problem I am encountering. Anything over say 20K cup will cause the dinky little cutout area above the rim to collapse, albeit a little per firing. Collapsed enough, the case won't slip into the shellholder. Probably the Casull cases have a good sized cutout (extractor groove), then they would work perfectly. Could use 5 samples, if someone has them to spare. fmr72901atjunodotcom. ... felix

[Blacktail 8541]

Felix if you pm me I will send some new hornady 454 case that are preped for 45 colt length unreamed.

[Bret4207]

On the 45 brass problem. I have seen guys taping that area when fire forming. Perhaps our beloved HVAC foil tape could come to the resuce? Just a w.a.g.

On the 5066- get a hold of an older Lyman manual from the 50's -60's. They'll have some info. Floodgate may have the info if you don't have access to the manuals.

[felix]

Bret, that solution of wrapping the case is just too simple. Can't bitch and moan in a legit fashion if it works. I still want a long ACP case with a rim for a LC case, and hopefully the Casull case will come close. ... felix

[Bret4207]

HAR! As usual you're right Felix. What would the challenge be if everything just WORKED! I humbly beg your forgiveness.

[floodgate]

Tpr. Bret; Felix:

"On the 5066- get a hold of an older Lyman manual from the 50's -60's. They'll have some info. Floodgate may have the info if you don't have access to the manuals."

Actually, I do, and I used P5066 a bit back in the '60's in .38 Spl, and liked the way it handled. The last listings I have for 5066 (and for P # 6, which I never tried) are in Lyman/Ideal HB #43, from 1964; they were dropped from the next edition, #44 (1967), which gives you a "no younger than" date for your can. They list 3.5 grs./706 fps. as "suggested", and 4.6 grs./900 fps max for the .38 Spl. with the 158-gr. #358156 or #358311. For the .357, they show 3.0 grs./650 fps. low and 5.0 grs./1100 max. with the 165-gr. Keith #358429 ; for the .44 Mag, they suggest 6.5 grs./750 fps. low and 8.5 grs/1020 fps. with the 250-gr. #429421 Keith - just a sampling. I can Xerox and send you a printout if you'd like it.

Doug/floodgate