1000 yards shooting

[canuck4570]

anyone did some 1000 yards shooting with cast?
if yes what bullet, at what speed,
and what was the accuracy....

[Red River Rick]

Canuck4570:

Perhaps you missed this thread. Some pretty amazing shooting!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56124&page=2

RRR

[John Boy]

Canuck, I shoot 1000yds with the following bullets using a 45-70:
Lyman Postell
Lyman 457125
Paul Jones Creedmoor
Paul Jones 'Doc Lay Money Bullet' - it's a Mini Groove designed by Dan Theodore. FMPIII was using this bullet to shoot his great 10 shot group in a 50-90
I've used others but these produce

A NRA 1000yd target is 72" x 72" with a 10" center and a 20" 10 ring. I shoot at a steel buffalo, Homer' that is 48" high x 82" wide. From 11:00 to 3:00" he goes into the shadows so shooting is tough.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20Oct%202008/PDRM3575.jpg

And here's Homer using the Lee 515-450-F in a #1 RRB (50-70)... 8 out of 10 shots in 25+ mph wind. He was in the shadows then and my sight picture was only about 40" x 48". Another 3-4 more MOA I would have had center shots
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20May%202009/IMGP0231.jpg

[Hang Fire]

I have found 1,000 yard shooting easy, but hittimg what I am aiming at a bit harder.

[canuck4570]

I feel stupid
forgot to say I would like to try it with my 30-06
please don't be to hard on me
thank you Canuck......

[Larry Gibson]

I feel stupid
forgot to say I would like to try it with my 30-06
please don't be to hard on me
thank you Canuck......

Two problems with 1000 yards shooting with cast bullets and the '06. One is using a bullet with sufficient BC and the other is the eternal problem of the bullet going subsonic way before it gets there.

I have been trying to get a good answer to this very question for many years. I've found the best long range .30 cal bullet commonly available to be the 311299. When loaded to 2000- 2100 fps out of an '06 (consitent 2 moa is obtainable with proper loading techniques) that bullet will hold sonic to 600 yards under most conditions. Past that accuracy suffers tremendously as the bullet drops under the speed of sound.

The only way I have been reasonably successful is to load it to 1100-1200 fps such as 45-70 loads are. But the problem then is most match receiver sights and scopes do not have enough elevation to get to 1000 yards. However, with a M1903 and and using the tall ladder rear sight I did one time get reasonable accuracy at 1000 yards. Reasonable was that I managed to stay on the 5V "C" target face for 15 out of 22 shots. The score was nothing to write home to momma about!

On the other hand using a PP'd 301620 might just do the trick. I've not attempted that but perhaps someone has?

Now on the other hand a regular cast bullet with about the highest BC for cast is the Lyman 323471 which is a 215 gr bullet with a BC of .475. My thought has been to sized it down to .312 (I've already done it and it is not difficult using several Lee push through dies in successive steps). PP it and shoot it out of my Russian M91/30 sniper. With the 7.62x54R cartridge a velocity of 2500+ fps (have to consider the 28.5" barrel) should be doable. Given the external elevation of the PU scope mount along with a generous internal amount of elevation that might make it to 1,000 yards successfully. One of these days perhaps I'll get around to it.

Larry Gibson

[canuck4570]

Larry, good info
could you tell me what is a PP'D301620 sound like a mold number but from who....
I thought that a mold from NEI who has pointed 30 caliber bullets et the 200 gr range....
and yes I would drive them under the speed of sound
NEAR in alberta make picatinny rail to your spec in MOA up to 50 if I wish....
will check JBM ballistic to see what would be good in MOA
thank again for the info....
Canuck

[Larry Gibson]

301620 is a Lyman mould made specifically for PPing. Has not been catalogues for some time and I've not seen one for sale at a reasonable price. A custom LBT mould might be the way to go.

Larry Gibson

[canuck4570]

thank you Larry....
looking seriously at lbt pointed mold

[pdawg_shooter]

I have tried for years to find a 301620, no luck. The 210gr Lyman, 311289 I think, works well. Size it .3015 in a push through die and paper patch. I have taken it to just over 3000fps in a 300RUM and got it to shoot just about 1 MOA. The alloy was around 18BHN.

[w30wcf]

I have found that the 311284 just may be the ultimate 1,000 yard .30 caliber cast bullet. As we know, it was originally designed for the .30-40 Krag and resembles the early 220 gr. Krag jacketed bullet that was used in 1,000 yard competition back in the late 1800's-early 1900's.

It's blunter, more balanced design allows for accurate shooting even after it becomes subsonic.

I have used the 311284 in my .30-30 T.R Commemorative Rifle @ 1,000 yards on "Homer", the steel buffalo that John Boy referenced (Good shooting John Boy!). I have never shot it on paper at that distance.

Several years ago when I first tried it, I happened on a sight setting that placed the bullets about 2 feet over Homer's back and decided to keep shooting at that sight setting to see how close the bullet impacts were. The conditions were great for an early October day....cooll temps and no wind to speak of. My spotter charted the impacts and he determined that 5 rounds printed into about a 1 1/2 m.o.a. group.
Probably couldn't do that again!

The load I was using was 34/H414/WLP under the 311284 which weighed 222 grs in w.w.+2% tin which were heat tr eated. Velocity in the 26" barrel was a shade over 2,000 f.p.s. I did have that load checked for pressure at a ballistics lab and surprisingly it was almost 10% below the SAMMI MAP for the .30-30.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/004.jpg


pic of the 311284's in the .30-30
right is as loaded for 1,000 yards - single feed into the '94
left - flat nosed and seated deep to cycle in lever actions ala Frank Marshall
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/311284.jpg

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

I have tried for years to find a 301620, no luck. The 210gr Lyman, 311289 I think, works well. Size it .3015 in a push through die and paper patch. I have taken it to just over 3000fps in a 300RUM and got it to shoot just about 1 MOA. The alloy was around 18BHN.

pdawg shooter,
Impressive!

w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

30wcf

Well now there ya go! Well done. I gave up on 311284 some years back because accuracy crapped out so bad when it went sub sonic. I was shooting it in a 10" twist M1903 though. I wonder if the 10" vs the 12" of your M94 might be the difference? I know I have put numerous 311299s "on rocks" out to 900 yards out of a 12" twist M70 .308W and they seemed to do really well. They too would be well subsonic by then considering the 2100 fps velocity. Interesting thread, I may have to revisit this entire topic with more experimenting with my 24" barreled M94! Thanks for the post.

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Regarding the 10" vs 12" twist, I have also shot the 311284 in a 10" twist barrel (788 .30-30) and although it was at 500 meters (547 yards) (very close to running out of elevation adjustment on the scope) they still shot well. Based on the 2,000 f.p.s. muzzle velocity, according to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, they went subsonic at close to the 500 yard mark, so they weren't subsonic for very far which may be a factor(?).

Good shooting with the 311299!:-D I have the 314299 which shoots very well from my 788 .30-30's but will not chamber in the TR '94 due to the .303" forepart, so I have not had the opportunity to try it at 1,000 yards. I may just have to get a 311299 mold.

Historically speaking, the 301620 mold was discontinued around 1983. In 1980, 1981, since it had the highest b.c. of any of the .30 cast bullets I purchased 1 of them with the intention of converting it to a conventional design (.311 dia on the last 3 bands). My reason for doing so is that I wanted a bullet that would retain the most momentum on the 500 meter ram target to make sure that any that I hit would topple over. That worked very well and I did three more for my friends.
At the time I did not realize that Lyman was discontinuing it or I would have
bought a few more.:(

I have not tried this bullet at 1,000 since it will not chamber in the TR '94 (.303" bore ride). Some day perhaps........

w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

w30wcf

Back years ago when i was shooting HP I played around a lot on the side with m1903s. I found with them that the 311284 was excellent to 500 yards also. However at a velocity where accuracy was acceptable for a decent score (high expert or master level) it would go subsonic between 500 and 600 yards. Thus 600 yards scores were horrible. That's when I switched to 311/314/299 as with the same acceptabel level of accuracy it held sonic to 600 yards.

I can single load the longer bullets in the M94 but if you don't fire them getting the loaded round out can be a problem. None the less I will get around to trying them in my M94 24" barrel one of these days. You definately have repeaked my curiosity!

Larry Gibson

[Tippet]

.308 175gr Sierra Match King, Montana Rifle Co. 1999 Short Action/PacNor BBL #7 taper

[Le Loup Solitaire]

There is an article written in "The Art of Bullet Casting", still published by Wolf Publishing Company, authored by a gentleman named Carl Johnson that discusses the modification and development of a version of the 30-30 cartridge that brought groups below the 1/2 inch mark. LLS

[longbow]

There is a photo here of my Lyman PP boolit "clone" (the big guy on the right ~ 180 gr.):

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56662

I liked the looks of the two PP boolits (160 & 200 gr.) in the Lyman Reloading manual so copied the basic shape and made a push out mould.

An "N" reamer works fine and is 0.302" diameter. My smooth sided boolit casts at 0.3015". Alternately they can be bored to size or you can make a D reamer easily out of drill rod or in my case old Mazda head bolts. Best service they ever gave me!

It shoots well but I have not tried it at long range.

The push out moulds are not hard to make if you have access to a lathe.

Longbow

[techlava]

Two problems with 1000 yards shooting with cast bullets and the '06. One is using a bullet with sufficient BC and the other is the eternal problem of the bullet going subsonic way before it gets there.

I have been trying to get a good answer to this very question for many years. I've found the best long range .30 cal bullet commonly available to be the 311299. When loaded to 2000- 2100 fps out of an '06 (consitent 2 moa is obtainable with proper loading techniques) that bullet will hold sonic to 600 yards under most conditions. Past that accuracy suffers tremendously as the bullet drops under the speed of sound.

The only way I have been reasonably successful is to load it to 1100-1200 fps such as 45-70 loads are. But the problem then is most match receiver sights and scopes do not have enough elevation to get to 1000 yards. However, with a M1903 and and using the tall ladder rear sight I did one time get reasonable accuracy at 1000 yards. Reasonable was that I managed to stay on the 5V "C" target face for 15 out of 22 shots. The score was nothing to write home to momma about!

On the other hand using a PP'd 301620 might just do the trick. I've not attempted that but perhaps someone has?

Now on the other hand a regular cast bullet with about the highest BC for cast is the Lyman 323471 which is a 215 gr bullet with a BC of .475. My thought has been to sized it down to .312 (I've already done it and it is not difficult using several Lee push through dies in successive steps). PP it and shoot it out of my Russian M91/30 sniper. With the 7.62x54R cartridge a velocity of 2500+ fps (have to consider the 28.5" barrel) should be doable. Given the external elevation of the PU scope mount along with a generous internal amount of elevation that might make it to 1,000 yards successfully. One of these days perhaps I'll get around to it.

Larry Gibson

There is a new discussion group for group buy of 323407 from NOE.