Round balls without lube?

[jack19512]

I know this is gonna seem like a stupid question but has anyone ever shot patched round balls without using any lube? There is a reason I'm asking this. :-?

So far I have not got what you would call real good groups with my 54 cal Lyman GPR. I shot some today and wasn't doing all that well as far as accuracy goes.

So, curiosity being what it is and lube making a difference sometimes I decided to shoot a couple shots without any lube at all and ended up shooting the best 3 shot group that I have shot to date.

Distance was 57 yards and group size was exactly 2 inches. Now I know this won't win any matches but I was happy. Considering open sights, my age and eyes I am not going to expect any miracles.

Not having any prior experience with patch and round balls what exactly is the draw backs as far as not using any lube on the patch? I should add that loading was not difficult and not much different then when using lube on the patch.

[docone31]

What type of powder,
What size ball,
What type of patch?
You have a 1/66 twist in that rifle. That recquires mostly a patched ball. You might try a .535, rather than a .530. I use pillow ticking, available at most fabric shops. One yard goes a long way for sure.
An awful lot of factors involved.
How new is the barrel? How clean is the barrel? Etc.

[northmn]

I have heard of not using lube on patching. Lube does several things. First it protects the patching. In some cases the patching will catch fire and smolder with no lube and can even catch dry grass on fire. It cleans the barrel between shots if a more liquid type lube like #9+ is used. Also it protects the barrel with a film when loaded in a hunting load. G granddad likely used the lards and greases for that purpose. It also does help make loading easier. Put simply, if you are getting better accuracy without lube you were using the wrong lube. Most have the best results shooting targets by using a liquid type cleaning lube.

Northmn

[Maven]

Jack...., A competitive BP shooter I know uses teflon-impregnated patches* without additional lube with great results. While I haven't tried those, I have used patches that were soaked in a 1:7 mixture of water soluble machining oil and water (were dry to the touch). Other than needing a bit more pressure to seat the patched ball, accuracy was excellent. Btw, it's possible that the problem you're having rests with the lube you'd been using, the diameter of the RB, and the patch thickness. I say this because I used a Crisco + beeswax patch lube (1 Crisco : 6 BW) and got miserable results from a proven rifle and load chain. I've also tried the larger RB and thinner patch in both my Ly. Great Plains and Dixie Tenn. Mtn. rifle and while the results were wonderful, I had to use a plastic mallet on my short starter to move the PRB down bore. It got old real fast and have since gone back to Lyman and Dixie's recommendations as to ball diameter without any loss of accuracy.

*Teflon ticking in the usual array of thicknesses is available from The Minute Men, 5492 Millersburg Rd., Wooster, OH 44691. Their tel. no is 330-262-5482 or www.theminute-men.com

[Old Ironsights]

Is Spit "lube"? :mrgreen:

I've done just fine with gnawing on the end of a roll of ticking then cutting at the muzzle.

But when I'm short of spit, I DO have precut patches that have been soaked in ballistol.

I also have tried rolls of teflon patch (again, cut at muzzle) but it tastes nasty... :kidding:

[Tom W.]

Spit can be used if you're going to load and shoot. It isn't the best, especially in the winter...

[jonk]

I would think that it would required harder starting and seating. My seater buggers up the ball enough as it is.

[10 ga]

What powder, BP, Pyrodex, 777?, in what granulation and what load? What patch? Pure PB or alloy RBs? Hot or cold? Humid or dry? Lots of things can make a difference in shooting. If it is a new barrel it may need a good "break in session" to season it. Shoot a 5 shot group and then clean the barrel completly ie., solvent, wire brush, patch swab, solvent, brush, patch until completly clean, then another 5 shot group, repeat. After several groups and subsuquest cleaning process the testing for an accurate load should begin in earnest. For the slow twist roundball guns I prefer the smaller .53 ball with the heavy .018 pillow tick patch, well lubed and seated tight. Powder should be black powder, preferably FF but some guns shoot better with F or FFF. Start at about 50 gr. and move up in 5 gr increments. You should find several loadings that give good accuracy. The 50-70 gr area is good for plinking, practice and small game. There will probably be a load around 90-120 gr that should give good accuracy and will be wonderful for big game. I don't particularly like the BP replacements in ball guns as I don't think they give as good performance as BP. Lube makes loading, cleaning easier and keeps the BP crud soft. I have a quick break in procedure for new barrels if you want to try that. Just use a VERY tight cleaning patch dusted with Comet or other abrasive cleaning agent and scrub the heck out of the bore a couple of times. Only takes about 5 minutes and you will have a smooth and polished bore ready to shoot. Don't forget to clean good after the scrubbing. A smooth bore shoots way better than a rough one and if the gun is new I can just about guarantee the bore is not polished smooth as needed. Best O Luck, 10ga

[jack19512]

What type of powder,
What size ball,
What type of patch?
How new is the barrel? How clean is the barrel? Etc.







1. Powder was 777
2. Round ball was store bought Speer .535
3. Patch was pillow ticking
4. Rifle is almost new I have shot it around 110 shots now
5. Barrel had been clean prior to this shoot
6. Powder charge was 60 grains

So far for lube I have tried bore butter and lard that I rendered myself, wasn't no real difference between the two lubes as far as accuracy goes. Can you use too much lube on the patch?

[docone31]

Too much lube is a waste, your charge sounds a little light. The ball is a little tight possibly.
You have to hammer the .535 into the bore. If you are going to go with the .535, go a little thinner on the patch.

[jack19512]

Too much lube is a waste, your charge sounds a little light. The ball is a little tight possibly.
You have to hammer the .535 into the bore. If you are going to go with the .535, go a little thinner on the patch.








When using pillow ticking and the .535 round ball loading is very easy, even after several shots. I 'm not sure what you mean by "You have to hammer the .535 into the bore". Mine loads easily. When I bought my pillow ticking at Walmart I asked the lady if the pillow ticking came in different thickness and she said no. I don't know if it does or not. But to get a real tight fit between patch@ball and the barrel I would sure have to use a thicker patch.

[mooman76]

I've used good old fashion spit with good results for years. Don't know if you would call it a lube or not but it does lubricate to some degree. Pillow ticking does come in different thicknesses. Maybe not at Walmart and maybe not as far as she is concerned because a few thous. wouldn't probably mean much to here. You don't have to use pillow ticking. A good strong cotton cloth works, it's just a little easier with pllow ticking because because it is a proven material that works.

[Maven]

"When I bought my pillow ticking at Walmart I asked the lady if the pillow ticking came in different thickness and she said no. I don't know if it does or not."


Jack....,

Pillow ticking most certainly does come in different thicknesses. Unless you want to purchase it in given thicknesses from Track of the Wolf, et al, where the price is high, the best bet is to go to your local fabric store with your micrometer* and purchase a yard of .010", .014" and .018" of ticking. One of these will fit. Alternatives to pillow ticking are 100% cotton calico, pocket drill and even denim.


*If you're unfamiliar with using a mcirometer for this, I think you'll find a few posts on how to do this in our archives.

[waksupi]

If you have to hammer the ball down the barrel, the load is too tight. Who knows what shape the ball is, by the time you get it down to the powder?
I shoot .526 in my .54, and load without a short starter.

[jack19512]

According to my micrometer the pillow ticking that I have measures .018 so I am using the largest pillow ticking and might have to try something a little thicker because my .535 round balls load pretty easy even without any lube.

[northmn]

I have used cotton muslin, denim, pillow ticking and duck. All work if matched to the ball. 777 may not need lube like BP as I do not have a great deal of experience with the stuff, but may react to the lard and bore butter as it cleans with straight water. Straight water has been tested and is a lube for target shooting if the patches are not dripping wet. Spit is also a very good lube for targets. They just evaporate for hunting loads. Also that light of a load may not be hot enough to ignite things, but patches can burn with hotter loads and no lube.

Northmn

[badgeredd]

According to my micrometer the pillow ticking that I have measures .018 so I am using the largest pillow ticking and might have to try something a little thicker because my .535 round balls load pretty easy even without any lube.

jack,

When I load my patched ball, I have a definite resistance in the first couple inches which diminished as the ball and patch form to the barrel. Not so much that I have to hammer it in, but I do whack the ball starter with my other hand. Some resistance is good but as mentioned above too much will deform your ball and ruin accuracy. I'm not saying it is loose but it moves easier after the initial starting. I need to keep steady pressure on it all the way to seating on the powder.

I use a .535 RB with a .012 patch that is lubed lightly with a mix of crisco and beeswax that is applied warm and forced into the patch. There is no excess on the patch and I'd say it is kinda on the dryish side. I haven't benched the gun for years, but when I originally worked up loads for it, I could consistently shoot a 2 1/4" group or less at our 150 yard range. Loading effort is relative to the individual but it kinda sounds like your load may need a denim patch or a larger ball and likely more powder as mentioned above. Most of the fellows I know use 85 grains up to 110+ depending on what their barrel will burn. Also the powder granulation can make the difference. A few fellow shooters have found that their guns prefer a looser fit than mine does so experiment some.

Keep at it, you'll find the sweet spot with trial and error. That's part of the charm of a muzzle loader if your trying for really good accuracy with potent velocity.

Edd

[Hanshi]

It sounds like your prb is seating okay. If you are satisfied with it you can probably starting looking at the lube & powder situation. A good load can have a good smack on the short starter as long as it goes down okay with the ramrod. Black powder is capable of very fine, consistent accuracy. I don't know about the substitutes. you've had some good advice so far. You might also try one of the "dry" lube scenarios.

[10 ga]

Everyone seems to be giving relativly good advice. The .530 or even a .528 ball with the ticking patch would be my choice. The ball should start with a single smack on the short starter and go down smoothly with steady pressure on the ramrod. If you have to hit the ball repeatedly to ram down then it is too tight and you have a deformed ball and NO accuracy. With the .54 gun I would go up to about 75 to 100 gr. of the 777. For best accuracy if you can find some FF would be much better then FFF in the big bore in whatever powder you use. I even prefer F in my .58 when using minies. For best accuracy and ease of loading and cleaning, even 777, certainly use lube. I cut and prelube patches every year. My favorite are the ones made from linen that I cut from pants I find at the 2nd hand store or goodwill. Tough and really cheap. I'll check back in a couple of days and see how things ae going. Best O Luck, 10ga

[jack19512]

Next I am going to try some different powder and see how it does. I just don't understand why I would get better accuracy with no lube at all on my patch, that just goes against what would normally not make sense to me. Also I think I will try a little thicker patch(denim)with lube and see if that helps. I have shot over 100 of the .535 round balls out of this rifle now and don't feel that I have accomplished anything as far as accuracy goes. I'm heading to Myrtle Beach tomorrow for a week so it will be a short while before I can continue with this project. I will probably have this on my mind though as I walk along the ocean. :-D

[Maven]

jack19512, The thicker patch seems to be the path to take. Is it possible to use 2 patches, e.g., .010" + .014" or even .018"? (I've done this on occasion.) Also, if a thicker patch + .535" RB doesn't load easily, I wouldn't hesitate to go to a .530" RB. Lastly, I'd experiment with patch thickness first and ball diameter if you must, but leave the lube and powder variables alone until you get an improvement in accuracy. Hope you have a wonderful time in Myrtle Beach!

[stubshaft]

+1 for the teflon ticking. Since I've used it I have been spoiled! and refuse to use patch lube other than to store my guns.

[piwo]

jack19512, The thicker patch seems to be the path to take. Is it possible to use 2 patches, e.g., .010" + .014" or even .018"? (I've done this on occasion.)

I've done similar. I use old "necktie's" filler to fill out a "patch/ball" combination with my .018 pillow ticking and .535 roundball. Used Zig Zag's as well :shock:

[10 ga]

All things told, my approach would be to go to a smaller ball, i.e. .530, .528 or .525 round balls and use a heavy lubed patch. Personally I think the .535 ball is too tight and you are cutting up the patches, dry patches are probably harder to cut on the rifling and are staying together better. What do your patches look like after firing? What is the difference between the dry and lubed after firing? Changing the ball size is probably the cheapes thing to do to start troubleshooting anyway. Hope your beach week went well. 10ga