Random late night question

[briang]

Is there such a thing a a muzzle loader using smokeless powder? Just curious.

[Buckshot]

................Yup, Savage makes a couple models.

..............Buckshot

[kyle623]

I remember seeing somewhere on the net someone is making bp substitute thats almost smokeless. they were white pellets but i cant remember who it is.

[6pt-sika]

Here's a Savage 10ML that shoots smokeless just fine ! I normally use VV N-110 with the Hornady 250 grain SST sabot .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/DSCN0438.jpg


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/DSCN0440.jpg


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/DSCN0245.jpg

[cajun shooter]

My question is "WHY" would you buy a BP rifle and then use smokeless powder in it? I'm having a time trying to see the light on this one.

[6pt-sika]

My question is "WHY" would you buy a BP rifle and then use smokeless powder in it? I'm having a time trying to see the light on this one.

That rifle I have is not a BP rifle it is a "smokeless muzzleloader" . You "can" shoot BP or BP substitutes in it .

If I want to shoot Triple 7 I have a pair of Knight Disc Rifles .

If I want to shoot blackpowder I have three flintlock longrifles and a original 36 caliber percussion longrifle .

[6pt-sika]

There have been a bunch of guys that have taken the Savage 10ML and put new Pac Nor 45 cal ML barrels on them then used the Hornady 200 grain SST sabot in them for close to 2,700 FPS .

I had thoughts of giving that a whirl as well . But after I was unable to pick up a second 10ML cheap for rebarreling I kinda gave up on the idea .

It's also my understanding that Ultra Light Arms in West Virginia is building a high end rifle of this type that is supposed to be a tack driver extrodinaire .

[briang]

Thanks guys


My question is "WHY" would you buy a BP rifle and then use smokeless powder in it? I'm having a time trying to see the light on this one.

i was just wondering if there was any reason not to do it, I probably never will.

[badgeredd]

My question is "WHY" would you buy a BP rifle and then use smokeless powder in it? I'm having a time trying to see the light on this one.

I'm with you on this one. I suppose there is a logical (?) reason for such a firearm, but I doubt that one would be legal here in Michigan in the ML season...then again, I have been wrong before (several times). To me it defeats the idea of the primitive firearm season. Please forgive me but I don't really think that modernizing a muzzy to twist the idea for the BP season is really kosher. I've noticed the older I get the more I think that a muzzle loader season should be black powder only. I do have an in-line, but I purchased it to be able to mount a scope on and to use in the firearm season, and really don't much care for it as a firearm. Just doesn't seem right to my BB brain. [smilie=1:

Edd

[docone31]

I believe,
The reason he was wondering, there is so much schtick about Black Powder out there. Fouling, impossible to clean, low energy, etc....
At least I thought that way for a long time, a long time.
Speed is better!!!! No smoke!!!!
Well,
I found, the fouling is not that bad, depending on the lube. Smoke is no biggee. Most of all, who needs speed when they have weight and impact?
I literally stayed away from "cheap" black powder rifles and pistols. I stayed away for years. Today, BP is in my life! I love the smell, I love the feel. I love the artistic form and function. They are works of art. Cranky at times also. It takes range time to get them uncranky and even then they teach you a lesson. I had heard these stories of heavy charges knocking a person off an horse. Well, I fire very heavy charges. Often, when I fire these charges, the hammer goes to half cock after firing! I like the abscence of recoil with Front Stuffers! My .303 British hits harder than they do.
My thoughts were back then, either a duplex load, or pure smokeless. I am glad I never did it. Real glad! I met a person who did it routinely back then. He survived it, but the rifle did not.
I fire less at the range, and get bored less with my Front Stuffers. They take longer, and each shot is a better picked shot.
I go home each night, pump water through the barrel with a patch on a jag. I pump untill it pumps clean, then I clean it and use patch lube in the bore to keep the rust off. A routine. I like sharpening my nipples, I like the handling of the firearm that way, and I like loading for each shot. If I were going to battle today, It would not be my first choice however. Mostly for practicle reasons. Hunting, practice, practice, practice, then hunt.
Clean up is a snap, loading is simple if done to a routine, and makeing it look purty is fun!
I prefer Front Stuffers today.
If a person was to use smokeless in a Front Stuffer, first of all, BE CAREFUL! The pressures of the two types of powder are radically different. Boolitt shapes are different, and the twists are different.
A duplex load does not clean the bore when firing! They clean up real easily IF they are cleaned up after firing at the range, or field.
I spent years thinking on useing smokeless powders in muzzle loaders. Never did figuire out a way though.

[SciFiJim]

My question is "WHY" would you buy a BP rifle and then use smokeless powder in it? I'm having a time trying to see the light on this one.

My question is why ask "Why"? That implies something that is not needed. Idea development is not a step 1, then step 2 proposition. Sometimes asking "it is possible" instead of "is it needed" can lead to huge gains in knowledge.

Imagine if the original developer has said "I want to develop a breech loading cartridge rifle" and some else had asked "Why, muzzle loaders work fine" and the developer had stopped. Where would we be now?

[northmn]

I am old enough to remember and to be a part of getting the BP seasons in Minnesota. We were mostly match shooters from clubs sponsoring shoots that went to meetings with the DNR to get them going. At that time we really did not think about how companies like CVA or TC would change over to the current products to hedge on the legalities of the season requirements. We basically wanted and got the ML season to use what is called "traditional" MLs. Some thought it would be nice to have a season to renevzous in. Essentially, a muzzle loader is a "historical" firearm not a primitive weapon. No inline is a historical firearm in that they were not used to any significance even if there was some patent registered. The Knight rifle company became an insult because they advertised that you could use their rifle and avoid the "fuss and mess" of a traditional ML. All that fuss and mess was what shooting BP was about. I still wonder if the BATF would have permitted sales of BP along with smokeless powder instead of how they treat it now if the modern powders would have come along. To me the modern ML's will always be a joke, not only because of rifle design, but also because of ammunition design. They are a marketers dream. Slug guns existed that were far more efficient than some of the concoctions used today (read Ned Roberts on the Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle). The Gibbs offering by Pedersoli is used in 1000 yard matches and no modern inline will compete against one. The current offerings in Ml ammo are based on a 50 cal standard. The 58 already had better offerings for large game as Val Forget used one in Africa, and other calibers are simply better if you want more power. I usually refrain from getting to involved on this issue as many say that we should permit each to do his thing, but those previous to myself and those I went to DNR meetings with would not have bothered had we known how the current deluge of inlines, bolt actions and other ML's took over at sporting good stores. They really are an insult to our efforts.

Northmn

[Digital Dan]

My question is why ask "Why"? That implies something that is not needed. Idea development is not a step 1, then step 2 proposition. Sometimes asking "it is possible" instead of "is it needed" can lead to huge gains in knowledge.

Imagine if the original developer has said "I want to develop a breech loading cartridge rifle" and some else had asked "Why, muzzle loaders work fine" and the developer had stopped. Where would we be now?


I would be where I am now.....with a flintlock.:mrgreen:

My couple of thoughts on the matter, one philosophical, the other technical:

I rather think the modernization of muzzle loaders for use in "primitive" hunts was a mistake. A very large portion of those pursuing ML seasons use them and are thus missing the point. I have no objection to the inline theory, just the idea that folks are clambering aboard a special season with "modern" equipment. It is about HUNTING, not shooting. Traditional muzzle loaders offer a chance to learn a lot about shooting and hunting. There is a lot to know.......

On the second part, it baffles me why folks would flock to this inline rifle theory then handicap the potential with twist rates that largely preclude the use of longer heavier bullets with their attendant increase in BC. The velocity increase serves little purpose if the bullet has the BC of a brick. JMO.

OH, and every time I read of someone trying to salvage an inline that wasn't cleaned after use and it turned into a rusty mess....I admit it....I have to smile a little. Nobody learns much of anything without some degree of pain.

[SciFiJim]

I rather think the modernization of muzzle loaders for use in "primitive" hunts was a mistake.

I would agree with you on that. Use the right tool for the job.

I guess I read the OPs question differently.

[Digital Dan]

OPs.........??????? Be gentle, I'm takin' meds. :-)

[briang]

I asked this question out of pure curiosity, I was in this section simply out of boredom and while reading about fouling and lubes and the such i wondered if there was a simpler way. I know next to nothing about ML's and really don't plan on owning one anytime some. I'm not trying to work my way into a hunting season (I only hunt paper and steel) or anything like that. However please feel free to continue this discussion as it's quite interesting.

[Hang Fire]

I asked this question out of pure curiosity, I was in this section simply out of boredom and while reading about fouling and lubes and the such i wondered if there was a simpler way. I know next to nothing about ML's and really don't plan on owning one anytime some. I'm not trying to work my way into a hunting season (I only hunt paper and steel) or anything like that. However please feel free to continue this discussion as it's quite interesting.

I have no doubt the question was innocent enough, but it is one that generates much heat. Some traditional muzzleloaders take great exception to the inlines being used in primitive seasons. Although it has never bothered me, I have hunted with a rocklock ML in the general for years before there were hardly any such thing as primitive seasons.

With the event of the inlines, many more hunters went after the primitive seasons just to get another hunt in. Most of those could care less whether they hunt with a cartridge gun or a inline, they just want to hunt. Many states saw they could generate more specie if the primitive season was adapted to allow inlines, so for the pols, its all about money.

[6pt-sika]

You know I think the argument thing over inlines versus sidelocks is BS !

I for one have and use this Savage , the Knights and my contemporary flinters . I tend to like all three aspects of pushing the stuff down the barrel .

What I use affects no one else and what anyone else uses does not affect me . It's that simple !

Some folks take this anti inline/smokeless thing almost to religiouse persecution !

In my state we have a normal BP season that is open to anything including the rifle in the above pics . We are also in the process of trying to get an additional late "primitive" season . Meaning only "traditional" weapons shooting round lead balls or lead conicals and NO sabots . Alot of folks say there's no need to differentiate between the two . My personal opinion is bring on another season it just gives me more days out !


So then the bottom line is I don't care who likes that Savage rifle or not ! They didn't pay for it "I" did and I'll be the one that uses it :drinks:

[Hanshi]

I asked this question out of pure curiosity, I was in this section simply out of boredom and while reading about fouling and lubes and the such i wondered if there was a simpler way. I know next to nothing about ML's and really don't plan on owning one anytime some. I'm not trying to work my way into a hunting season (I only hunt paper and steel) or anything like that. However please feel free to continue this discussion as it's quite interesting.

The Savage is the only one I know of that is rated for smokeless powder. Never, NEVER put smokeless in any other muzzleloader! While the "mess" does endear many to real blackpowder muzzleloaders, it is also not what the uninitiated might suppose. I don't know about the inlines and "substitute" powders but black powder does not cause impossibly fouled bores. I and many, many others shoot flint and cap locks all day long without wiping the bore at all and they clean up quickly and easily afterward. Don't forget, it has only been in the last few decades that cartridge rifles finally managed to outshoot (black powder) muzzleloaders.

[Geraldo]

My first rifle was a muzzleloader, so I started hunting with it in regular season and primitive weapons season. All primitive season got me was three more days of hunting in really cold weather. As Hangfire says, to the politicians and wildlife bureaucrats it's all about the benjamins, so they would add an atlatl and spear season if they thought it would generate income. I'm of the opinion that hunting season is hunting season-run what you brung and don't worry about what everybody else is using.

I'm also all for pushing any shooting system to its limits. People shoot 1000 yard rifle matches even though there isn't practical need for it, so push the muzzleloader any way you see fit. Just because I'm not sure why anyone would want to dump smokeless powder down a barrel doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried.

[northmn]

The issue really is not one so much as whether inlines or bolts in what ever form should be allowed or the powder type. It one of achievement. It rather burns my tail when someone that decides he needs the shortcuts claims the same achievment as one who uses a flintlock or a sidelock percussion. Getting a game animal with a scoped inline is no greater achievment than with a modern rifle. About the only difference is one of range. The Pope and Young club was founded on bowhunters using recurves and longbows. Now those using compounds with 80% plus letoff and sophisticated sights feel they deserve the same recognition as those that used real bows. That is BS. Its the same with muzzle loaders. The more you improve (if you want to call it that) over the historical weapons and process the more you cheapen the achievement. Its about doing it the way GG grandad did it not about adding another hunting season to your schedule.
Some of the modern ammo combinations are also ridiculous. Muzzleloading shooting is a relatively inexpensive sport. You can buy a cheap Lee mold and cast pure lead ball (or even minnies or maxis if that is your choice). The powder is cheaper per pound. I pay about $17 per pound for GOEX or Grafs when ordered from Grafs in 5 pound lots. It would be less if I ordered more per lot. I just paid $25 for a pound of smokeless. I just got a buy on pure lead for about 40 cents a pound or so. My 25 will shoot about 20 grains of BP and uses a 23-24 grain ball that costs $25 per five pounds. Sabots, jacketed bullets (which are ridiculous in a ML) and some of the other bullet combos are darned expensive. Like I have said, the modern muzzleloading has become a marketers dream.

Northmn

[6pt-sika]

It rather burns my tail when someone that decides he needs the shortcuts claims the same achievment as one who uses a flintlock or a sidelock percussion. Getting a game animal with a scoped inline is no greater achievment than with a modern rifle. About the only difference is one of range. The Pope and Young club was founded on bowhunters using recurves and longbows. Now those using compounds with 80% plus letoff and sophisticated sights feel they deserve the same recognition as those that used real bows. That is BS. Its the same with muzzle loaders. The more you improve (if you want to call it that) over the historical weapons and process the more you cheapen the achievement. Its about doing it the way GG grandad did it not about adding another hunting season to your schedule.
Northmn

Those are your "opinions" and not necissarily yours alone !

And you already read mine ! So you should know well enough that your "opinion" and mine are about 180 degree's apart !

I'll say it again , I do not care what you use when you hunt just the same as I do not care what church you attend !

And I certainly expect no less from you !

What I do affects you in NO way and what you do certainly has no bearing on me !

And it isn't always about doing what great great grand dad did , it's about doing what you wish that is LEGAL !

In my own situation sometimes I am more intrested in the kill while other times it is more about the particular firearm be it a flinter , my Savage or a 264 WIN MAG !

[badgeredd]

6pt,

Please understand that I didn't mention in-lines to cause a feud here. I am not trying to berate or insult all in-line users. I haven't any problem with your choice of weapons at all. What I do have a problem with is the way Dept. of Wildlife (what ever they are called in the individual states) have bastardized the primitive/muzzle loader/traditional/historic black powder firearm season. You are obviously a traditional shooter too since you do use a flinter (which I have not), so I'm sure you will understand what I very poorly am trying to say here.
I preferred the original intent (by sportsmen) of the muzzle loader season, being more about hunting than killing critters. Not that all in-line are being carried by people who really know little about muzzle loading, but I'd be surprised to find an equal number in the traditional ranks that haven't taken the time to learn about the weapons and ammo.
I'd personally prefer a season that was limited to Black Powder and caplock/flintlock historical firearms ONLY. I've used my muzzy during the open firearms season which is my choice. I've also used handguns, rifles, and shotguns in the open firearm season. Again that was my choice. But to me when the Modernized muzzle loaders are included in the "Black powder season" it dilutes the intent of the sportsmen wishes that worked to get the special season for the "historic" traditional black powder firearms. No doubt the added firearms were included to generate more revenue for the states and not to make the game more accessible to more hunters. Although some of the new modernized weapons in no way are representative of the traditional black powder firearms they are legal. I guess that is my point. Should they really be legal for a tradition black powder season? In my mind the answer is no. If the states want to have an open front stuffer season, then I'd like to see a traditional black powder season also, limiting the firearms to the black powder, muzzle loaded, caplock/flintlock, historical guns. Are we good here?

Edd

[Underclocked]

The argument for/against inlines is one of an arc vs a line. It's as simple as that. Traditionalist tend to argue the extreme performance, function and accuracy or their rifles while berating the inline design. I would rather see a newbie buy a good inline than a bad sidelock (and the reverse is also true).

Pursuing every last bit of speed one can get out of a particular rifle doesn't fit with my notion of muzzleloading either, but to each his own. I think we should all just enjoy our preference in weapons without insulting the choices others make.

My experience has been that, if anything, sidelocks are at least as easy to clean and maintain as most inlines... and at least as accurate. northmn points out just how accurate sidelocks can be. I might still be shooting sidelocks if I were able to aim well with iron sights.

To the OP, Savage is the only mass producer of smokeless inlines. SwingLok http://www.swinglock.net/ , Bad Bull http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com/ , UltraLight http://www.newultralight.com/HTML/mz.html , and http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/products.html all make smokeless muzzleloaders or conversions. I prefer my Whites. :)

I do have a problem when I hear rapid fire during muzzleloader season. You can't crank out 4 or 5 shots in a few seconds from any kind of muzzleloader that I'm aware.

[Underclocked]

ps:

Looks like a duck

http://www.swinglock.net/TraditionalLeft.jpg

[6pt-sika]

I suppose to certain degree I am unique in the fact that I like all aspects of hunting with ML's , rifles and anything else I can kill a deer with !

By all aspects I mean any and all forms of any style of weapon .

I like stickbows as well as compounds and even crossbows !

For ML's I like my Contemporary Flinters , the Disc rifles and THE SAVAGE .

For rifle's that shoot metallic cartridges I shoot anything from a cartridge that was made in the 1880's up to and including cartridges that were released in the last year !

For projectiles I like cast and jacketed .

As far as I'm concerned it's unimportant to me what you use and I would assume it's unimportant to you what I use !
Since we are no longer in a society where the majority of us "have" to live off what we kill , hunting is purely for pleasure . And if it's pleasurable for one guy to chase 120 pound whitetails with his 458 WIN MAG thats just as great as the other guy who never wants to use anything but his exact replica of a 16th centruy matchlock !

My hats off to both fellows !

If you wanna use just flinters all year long , fine by me ! But don't ridcule me because I choose to use that Savage somedays as opposed to my flinters .

We need to quit bickering between ourselves and fight the bigger problem that resides in the "White House" !

I wanna go on record again and say "I did not vote for that person" and I use the term person loosely :roll:

[6pt-sika]

I belong to an organization in Virginia called the "Virginia Muzzle Loading Rifle Association" . A very nice group of fellows I might add !

We had a meeting in february to decide how to best come up with a "primitive Season" .

Now to my way of thinking anything with a sidelock that shot roundballs or lead conical bullets should be okay !

And it amazed me how much adversity there was between the 20 or so folks at that meeting . Some guys wanted to make it flint only . Some wanted rifles or copies up to things used in the Civil War and wanted to not let the middle of the road guys use their old TC Hawken's . They also didn't want them using TC Maxi Balls !

Now I understand folks wanting to get it as close to their own personal intrest as possible , but when dealing with a government agency you have to broaden maybe a bit more then you want or they won't give you the time of day !

Anyway we all finally decided to make it sidelock rifles percussion or flint . patched roundballs or lead conical bullets (Maxi Balls included) and NO scopes or sabots .

Bottom line here and with this topic , we need to keep an open mind regardless of whether it's something we personally like or not !

Cause boys at this rate it's only a matter of time before the anti folks get us ALL far enough apart that we can't fight them anymore for arguing between ourselves !

[6pt-sika]

I do have a problem when I hear rapid fire during muzzleloader season. You can't crank out 4 or 5 shots in a few seconds from any kind of muzzleloader that I'm aware.


I can relate to that !

Although I have been known to carry a pair of ML's up a tree with me before [smilie=1:

[northmn]

I admit I am opinionated but here's my basis for my opinions. I founded a blackpowder club in Northern MN. I have built several different types of traditional ML's from Jaegers to percussion plains rifles, and have even built some for others. Doing so, I have also gained a historical knowledge of the basis for different types of ML's. I even remember when Toby bridges wrote for traditional magazines.
I say modern ammunition for ML's is ridiculous because of the fact that in the middle 1800's quite a bit of study was done on finding suitable elongated projectiles for ML's. Out that study came the minnie ball as used by the militaries of most major powers. The minnie used in a traditional civil war musket was not so great as bore diameters varied as well as fouling buildup required the use of undersized bullets. When used in a proper made barrel and with a properly sized minnie they can be accurate enough for practical hunting purposes and much more effective than a saboted 45 pistol bullet. Lyman had a variety of minnie ball molds long before the maxi ball came out or the modern sabots. There was also the development of the mechanically fit bullet such as used in the British Whitworth which was used in the civil war as a sniper rifle and is far more effective at longer ranges than the latest and greatest. You also have patched bullets as used in some sporting rifles of the time. The British developed doubles using that system. Many claim that one of the best ML hunting rifles ever made was the British game rifle. Were I to post a picture (which I do not have available) of a flintlock British game rifle, many of you would think it a flintlock halfstock Hawken. The differences are that they came first, they had a single trigger and a shotgun buttplate to absorb recoil and were lighter barreled. Most were also large bores typically shooting round ball of 60 caliber or more. Some were smaller, many were gauge guns of 16 bore and over. These guns were carried by English sportsmen who hunted all over the world and shot a wide variety of game.
When I talk about achievement I mean just that. I saw a film of Shockey shooting a cape buffalo with a modern rifle that loaded from the muzzle. He shot a cape buffalo, that is an achievement. The English sportsmen would have shot it with one of their flintlock gauge guns which to me is more impressive (even if they had a gun bearer and backup guns, Shockey had a white hunter backup with a bigger gun). Last deer season I took out the 30-30 because that day I wanted to make sure I could put something in the freezer if I saw it. I did. When I hunted with my 270 it became about as exciting as butchering beef, which we head shot with 22's and killed instantly. They would drop to their knees and had to be rolled over to gut. Bowhunting and hunting with a ML put a lot of fun back into hunting for me. To me the inlines are kind of like using the 30-30. When I want to shoot a percussion gun anymore I grab the 45-70 loaded with BP and a 330 grain Gould bullet. Why challenge yourself with a less efficient weapon and then do all you can to remove the challenge?

Northmn

[6pt-sika]

I admit I am opinionated but here's my basis for my opinions. I founded a blackpowder club in Northern MN. I have built several different types of traditional ML's from Jaegers to percussion plains rifles, and have even built some for others. Doing so, I have also gained a historical knowledge of the basis for different types of ML's. I even remember when Toby bridges wrote for traditional magazines.
I say modern ammunition for ML's is ridiculous because of the fact that in the middle 1800's quite a bit of study was done on finding suitable elongated projectiles for ML's. Out that study came the minnie ball as used by the militaries of most major powers. The minnie used in a traditional civil war musket was not so great as bore diameters varied as well as fouling buildup required the use of undersized bullets. When used in a proper made barrel and with a properly sized minnie they can be accurate enough for practical hunting purposes and much more effective than a saboted 45 pistol bullet. Lyman had a variety of minnie ball molds long before the maxi ball came out or the modern sabots. There was also the development of the mechanically fit bullet such as used in the British Whitworth which was used in the civil war as a sniper rifle and is far more effective at longer ranges than the latest and greatest. You also have patched bullets as used in some sporting rifles of the time. The British developed doubles using that system. Many claim that one of the best ML hunting rifles ever made was the British game rifle. Were I to post a picture (which I do not have available) of a flintlock British game rifle, many of you would think it a flintlock halfstock Hawken. The differences are that they came first, they had a single trigger and a shotgun buttplate to absorb recoil and were lighter barreled. Most were also large bores typically shooting round ball of 60 caliber or more. Some were smaller, many were gauge guns of 16 bore and over. These guns were carried by English sportsmen who hunted all over the world and shot a wide variety of game.
When I talk about achievement I mean just that. I saw a film of Shockey shooting a cape buffalo with a modern rifle that loaded from the muzzle. He shot a cape buffalo, that is an achievement. The English sportsmen would have shot it with one of their flintlock gauge guns which to me is more impressive (even if they had a gun bearer and backup guns, Shockey had a white hunter backup with a bigger gun). Last deer season I took out the 30-30 because that day I wanted to make sure I could put something in the freezer if I saw it. I did. When I hunted with my 270 it became about as exciting as butchering beef, which we head shot with 22's and killed instantly. They would drop to their knees and had to be rolled over to gut. Bowhunting and hunting with a ML put a lot of fun back into hunting for me. To me the inlines are kind of like using the 30-30. When I want to shoot a percussion gun anymore I grab the 45-70 loaded with BP and a 330 grain Gould bullet. Why challenge yourself with a less efficient weapon and then do all you can to remove the challenge?

Northmn

You undersetimate me !

I've had original percussion and flitlock arms around me for 40 years since I was a small child !

Didn't always shoot them but was knowledgable of them !

It's fine if you wanna "challenge" yourself !

Sometimes I do as well !

Just not all the time !

I still have a certain amount I need or would like to kill each year !

[northmn]

I like venison so I like to get one every year. There are many that take advantage of the more liberal deer seasons and shoot one for the freezer with whatever and then go out for the challenge with a flintlock or percusssion. Also as you I do like to play with different weapons. For a while I liked shooting old bolt action military rifles and cast bullets. Still shoot cast in my 30-30 and in an old 303 Brit my father bought me when I was a kid. Also like to play with BPC. Even made a few stickbows. Really could not use all the deer if I shot one with each gun or weapon of interest.

Northmn

[6pt-sika]

I like venison so I like to get one every year. There are many that take advantage of the more liberal deer seasons and shoot one for the freezer with whatever and then go out for the challenge with a flintlock or percusssion. Also as you I do like to play with different weapons. For a while I liked shooting old bolt action military rifles and cast bullets. Still shoot cast in my 30-30 and in an old 303 Brit my father bought me when I was a kid. Also like to play with BPC. Even made a few stickbows. Really could not use all the deer if I shot one with each gun or weapon of interest.

Northmn

Northmn you need to come to Virginia and hunt with me one year !

We are two per day all year long with three bucks the only limit we need to worry about as long as we buy bonus tags !

And if that isn't enough we can ride up to Maryland where their bag limits are two whitetail bucks , ten does , a Sika Stag and Sika doe per season ! And they call it three seperate seasons for bow , Ml and gun ! So in reality MD allows 6 whitetail bucks , 30 slicks , 3 Sika Stags and 3 Sika does PER YEAR ! And there technically is no daily limit just the seasonal bag limits !

In Virginia I will usually take from 12-15 each season and maybe one or two in Maryland . Any Sika deer I kill I KEEP . All the whitetails I cut up myself , usually keeping the tenderloin and backstraps for myself , friends and events while all the rest I bone out and give to the local food kitchen for the hungry .

I usually start in late august or early december as my neighbors have a vineyard and recieve kill permits each year ! I usually try and make use of 3 or 4 of those ! Then we bow hunt all of october as well as a week in Maryland in october for early ML season ! Thats what the Savage is for ! My opportunities at Sika are very very limited and I wanna kill them when I get an oppurtunity ! Also I prefer the meat of the Sika over whitetail anyday !

The first two weeks of november are ML season in my part of VA and then until the first saturday in january we have rifle/gun season !

This year my county was also given a bear gun season for the first time in my life !

In my county and the counties I hunt in Maryland the population of deer except for the Sika is overabundant !

So anyway one day I might hunt with the Savage , the next day it might be my Dickert rifle , later it might be a 444 Marlin with cast bullets and then another day it might be a 264 WIn Mag or 416 REM MAG even !

I like to and do try them all every so often !

[Hanshi]

My first rifle was a muzzleloader, so I started hunting with it in regular season and primitive weapons season. All primitive season got me was three more days of hunting in really cold weather. As Hangfire says, to the politicians and wildlife bureaucrats it's all about the benjamins, so they would add an atlatl and spear season if they thought it would generate income. I'm of the opinion that hunting season is hunting season-run what you brung and don't worry about what everybody else is using.

I'm also all for pushing any shooting system to its limits. People shoot 1000 yard rifle matches even though there isn't practical need for it, so push the muzzleloader any way you see fit. Just because I'm not sure why anyone would want to dump smokeless powder down a barrel doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried.

Very good points. I started with muzzleloaders, too.

[6pt-sika]

When I talk about achievement I mean just that. I saw a film of Shockey shooting a cape buffalo with a modern rifle that loaded from the muzzle. He shot a cape buffalo, that is an achievement. The English sportsmen would have shot it with one of their flintlock gauge guns which to me is more impressive (even if they had a gun bearer and backup guns, Shockey had a white hunter backup with a bigger gun).

Okay I'll go along with that I originally took it to mean you were dumping on me for posting the pic of the defunct deer with my Savage . By no means would I call the deer in my pic trophy quality other then when it was served on the dinner table .

I like trophies don't get me wrong , but that has never been the driving factor for anything I do in the hunting woods . I'll shoot a slick or young buck just as quick as an old war horse !

[Old Ironsights]

Here I come to Stir the Pot... :twisted:

Before I Stir... The question was asked earlier "why"?. Other than the very appropriate "Because", one good reason to have a High Velocity/Long Range Smokeless powder Caseless Ammunition Rifle is that it is not considered a "firearm" by the BATFE. So, depending on the State you live in, someone who has been saddled with the "Prohibited Person" canard ("Justly" or Injustly) can hunt at extended Ranges.

Now... back to Stirring:

Notice I did NOT call a SCAR a "Muzzleloader"... though I grant that definitionally and technically it is one.

IM wildly overinflated O, the SCARs are great rifles for those who want or are forced by law to use them. But "Muzzleloaders" hold a cognitive cachet that means "short range & lots of smoke".

The principle behind Muzzleloader seasons - and why the DNRs eventually had to redefine them as "primitive" seasons, was to have a paradigm shift from long range sniping to short range-woodscraft.

Again, IMwoO, I can think of nothing worse/more scary than sneaking to within 50yds of a deer with my Flintlock/Bow and have some guy on the next ridge/way across the beanfield snipe it.

A SCAR is a High Powered Rifle, no matter how it is loaded, and needs to be treated just like any other single-shot HPR. The real issue is one of simple Ballistics, not Operation or Look & Feel.

Now... as to the Inline vs Sidelock & PRB/Full Caliber vs Sabot & Iron vs Glass?

Suffice it to say my ML is a Stainless Steel & Black Plastic Externally Ignited 50 caliber Caseless Ammunition Military Pattern Rifle with Fiber Optic sights...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/PiC.jpg

:twisted:

[Hanshi]

Uhhh...I'm "inline" for a new flintlock. Does that count? [smilie=1:

[Old Ironsights]

Uhhh...I'm "inline" for a new flintlock. Does that count? [smilie=1:
Oddly enough, Inline Flintlocks were being made in the 1700s...and by all accounts worked just fine... though I'll bet the plume from the touch-hole would smoke the brim of your hat pretty well...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/WhatI4-1.gif
Bohemian Inline Flintlock, circa 1730-1740...

[Hanshi]

Not sure I'd risk trying it out:Fire:. The one I'm "inline" for is an EA fowler, anyway. :coffee:

[cajun shooter]

Well Well, I'm so happy that my post that said "WHY" has turned out so good!! 6pt-sika, I was not putting down on your choice of guns. Only the fact that they should be used. You seem to be where I was about deer hunting some 30 years ago. Meat at all cost, that's all that matters. I'm happy that you want more time in the woods. If you get to where you can take an acorn and drop it on a 7pts head because his rack is too small or let a legal spike walk by at 20 yards. Then maybe you will understand my point. You don't show up at a cowboy shoot wearing a 220 Sig. I'm at a point in my life that some people don't understand. I have quit using any smokeless powder and I don't care when I finish last because my full cases of 2F will not keep up with the young guys 2.7 grains of XXX with a 120 gr. bullet. There was a saying when I was growing up that you have to stop and smell the roses or people who can't see the forest because of the tree's. BP shooting has evolved into what company can come out with a gun that they say is BP and shoot a 250gr bullet 3000 FPS. The art form has been lost. I would rather kill a deer at 50 yds with my front stuffer than shoot one across the bean field at 250 yds with a gun that is no where close to being a BP gun. One day the anti gun and hunting groups will use this against us. They will say look at them and they say that is primitive hunting. Again as you say your choice my question was not directed at you as you think but at the makers of the gun. We have so much mis-information about BP now that some states even use it to pass laws that keep it from being available. I have to explain to some one every day when they find that I shoot BP that it's not dirty and impossible to clean from your gun. If it was so bad why is there not one writing in history where the writer says we could not continue to fight as our guns were rusted and froze up from the shooting done yesterday. I will now step down from the box

[6pt-sika]

BP shooting has evolved into what company can come out with a gun that they say is BP and shoot a 250gr bullet 3000 FPS.



The best I've seen in print has been a 200 grain saboted bullet in a 45 caliber going at 2600-2800 FPS .

Best I've seen with the 50 cal and a 250 grainer was about 2200-2400 I think .

I'm not so sure about Melvin Forbes Ultra Light Rifles in WVA , but to get a Savage with the 45 cal barrel you need to buy an aftermarket barrel from PacNor or possibly someone else now and headspace it on the Savage 10ML to get that velocity as they only market 50 cals .

In the Sika marshes without a doubt I will carry the Savage sighted in to put me dead on at 150 yards . I've said it many times before , if I could get ONE nice 6 point Sika in Maryland each season I would give up chasing whitetails and never look back . Now thats kinda hard when one lives a good 3 hour drive from the deer :???:
Isn't like at home where I walk out my backdoor and maybe go 300 yards and I'm in one of my stands on my own property !

[northmn]

I relate a lot to what Cajun is saying. Again I go back to the fact that I was partially involved in getting the ML season started in MN. Mostly as a member of a club supporting the seasons and meeting with the DNR. We were disappointed that they picked a time after regular season and Thanksgiving for the special season. The deer have been picked over and you can have snow up to your back pockets or it can be pretty cold. While that may seem to justify the use of the "modern guns" it doesn't. They did not exist at that time and we never dreamed they would take over like they did. The "modern" guns advertised the use of their product to "take advantage of the special seasons" and avoid the "hassle of black powder" In other words to go hunting during a special season without paying your dues. The intent was never there. The lobbying to maintaint he legal status of these guns has been pretty intense and has prevailed over protest of the "traditional" crowd. The increases in the deer herds also seem to be a factor as well as the fact that the ML season does seem to be a "management tool" as it currently exists. Most that use the inlines are pretty ignorant of what a traditional ML is. I have regularly seen them come into the local sporting goods store(which does not even stock a traditional rifle) and get set up with the rifle and all the junk, like pellets that go with them. They mostly want to hunt with friends. About the only thing that really gets to me is as I stated before, the issue of achievement. They want to claim that getting a deer with one of these is the same as with a flintlock or a percussion classic rifle. The guns were designed to "cheat" and therefore their desire to be recognized for their achievement in getting a nice deer with one is not one I care to share. What they did was legal, and I guess ethical, but they cheapened their accomplishment.

Northmn

[Geraldo]

Northmn,

I used a ML in gun season because it was all I had. Others used them because the state I lived in was shotgun only, and the muzzleloaders shot better at longer ranges. Were they cheating versus those who used 870s with Foster slugs?

[6pt-sika]

About the only thing that really gets to me is as I stated before, the issue of achievement. They want to claim that getting a deer with one of these is the same as with a flintlock or a percussion classic rifle. The guns were designed to "cheat" and therefore their desire to be recognized for their achievement in getting a nice deer with one is not one I care to share. What they did was legal, and I guess ethical, but they cheapened their accomplishment.

Northmn

Again I don't consider myself a "trophy hunter" in the normal sense of the term .

I will however admit , when I get my one day a year on the Blackwater and a better then average chance of getting a 6 point Sika Stag I'm gonna take advantage of any and all added bonus I can get !

Am I only after a world class trophy ? Certainly not . my intention when I go out early that morning is to hope and possibly hold out for a 6 point stag . However if a nice big doe or spiker comes by within a logical shooting range I'm gonna take the bird in the hand ! Point being I consider sika venison a delicacy compared to all the whitetail I normally have at my disposal .

I make no excuses or apologies for this !

At home chasing the plain old Virginia whitetail I have no problem shooting the flinters . But in the marshes of Dorchester County when I have a decent shot at getting a 6 point Sika you can darn well bet I'm gonna use anything legal thats to my ADVANTAGE .

[Underclocked]

And guys look at me like my screws are loose when I choose to use an inline when a .270 is legal.

My screws are loose, but choice of rifle has nothing to do with that... ;)

[northmn]

An individual I work with uses a scoped Remington inline in a shotgun only zone because he used to find himself spraying and praying with a pump. Now that he has one shot he still gets deer but considers this a better way. It has nothing to do with tradition or anything else and is understandable.

Northmn