PDA

View Full Version : Amazed in a gunstore, evedence of Obamapanic



windrider919
06-20-2009, 03:17 PM
Earlier this week I found out my town had gotten a new gun store so I dropped by to see if they were going to carry reloading components. He is not yet but told me he could order. Since I have to either drive 60 miles to buy powder or pay an outrageous Hazmat fee I would love to be able to by local for a reasonable markup.

Anyway. While I waited to continue my negotiations between customers I saw the scarcest thing I have seen in years, twice! First was an older lady, around 58 to 60 who wanted ammunition for a .357. She mentioned that it had belonged to her dead husband (who died in 2001) and that she had never shot it (or any gun) and it had just been sitting in the closet all these years. She also nervously quavered that she lived in an apartment complex and that many of the people living there now scared her. The salesman/owner showed her some strange brand of GC lead HP and some FMJ TC bullets. She bought the cheaper FMJs. Now just imagine an elderly woman, scared by something in the night, shooting at a noise with FMJ .357 Magnums!!!!!! I wonder how many walls those would go through! I wanted to go advise her but I held back, it was not my store and I felt my interference would not be appreciated. Then a couple of minuets later another guy (early twentys) came in asking for .44 Mag. Mentioned he had just bought it of a guy at work and asked if someone could show him HOW TO LOAD IT. They showed him several boxes of ammo and guess what? He picked the cheapest which was....you guessed it, the oddball brand with FMJ TC. He also remarked that with Obama as President he wanted to be prepared. So here is another non-shooter running around with what is in effect AP ammo. All in a space of twenty min. on an average day.

After everyone had left and it was just the owner and me i asked him if he considered what those FMJs could do and that they were not exactly defense loads. I asked him, "You know that a FMJ would just poke a small hole in someone and just piss him off, not stop him, right?" His response was that he had showed them better rounds but that they had picked what to buy based on price. I then said, "But doesn't it bother you that those bullets could go way beyond the target and hit someone innocent?" To which he replied, "It's none of my business, I just sell them what they want." So I left.

But I am very disturbed by this encounter. As a life long shooter I wanted to jump in and teach/educate these people who so desperately needed it. Both of them are not only a danger to those around them but if they actually end up shooting and causing injury or death to innocents beyond a wall it will no doubt cause a media circus about those "Dangerous gun owners". What they needed was a quick informal class in gun safety and operation and what types of bullets existed and how they worked. But that is not what they got. And how much of what might happen is my fault because I did not interfere? I believe in the 2nd Amendment but I am very uneasy with people like those two carrying firearms.

I guess what really bothered me was why have that FMJ ammo in the display counter at all. Except for shooting steel targets I don't see any use so why stock it. Most people who shoot the various steel targets reload first of all and second usually use a heavy jacketed exposed lead nose to 'grab' the steel without damaging it. The only reason for stocking and selling it was that it was cheap and could be sold to ignorant / innocents to make a profit. All in all a very disturbing day. And I decided that any shop with those ethics was not going to get my business.

45nut
06-20-2009, 03:25 PM
Can't blame you at all for your position. I agree completely.

lylejb
06-20-2009, 03:56 PM
the even sadder part of this is think about all the people who go to any wallymart, cheep-o-mart, ect.
do they get any better advice...no. and probably don't even have decent rounds to look at, just white box FMJ "value packs".

i do and have "nicely butted in" to situations like these. most of the time, the customer is happy to get some advice. if not, i but out. at least i tried.

i don't care if the store employee like it or not. If it's a wallymart, he was probably flipping burgers last week anyway.

it's just hard for me to stand idlely by and watch something that happen. it's an accedent waiting to happen, and that makes ALL of us look bad.

my .02 worth,
Lyle

badgeredd
06-20-2009, 04:02 PM
windrider,

To be perfectly honest, I don't know how I'd have handled that situation myself. I fully understand the proprietor's point of view, but I also have to say I think your concerns are completely valid. Knowing how I tend to say what I think, I may well have said something to the individual customers about the choices of ammunition they were given and why the cheapest wasn't the best. Being an owner of a gun related store, I feel the owner should have tacfully explained the differences (at least) and why the cheaper ammo wasn't the best choice BEFORE the customers made their choice.

Having worked in a retail store, I fully realize that one has to be very careful about telling the customer what they want AFTER they've made their choice. If one has the forethought to give the customer an explanation before they choose an item, then one has to pretty much accept their choice. It likely isn't really an option for the proprietor to not offer the FMJ cheapo ammo due to customer demands, but I feel he has a responsibility to inform people that obviously didn't know better. I also feel he has a responsibility to at least try to get them some training for their own safety, as well as those around them.

My opinion...and we know how that saying goes.

Edd

klcarroll
06-20-2009, 04:19 PM
"It's none of my business, I just sell them what they want."

With guys like that on "Our Side", ......half of Obama's battle has already been won!

To tolerate that sort of ignorant attitude is simply paving the road to our own extinction!

Kent

runfiverun
06-20-2009, 05:46 PM
i think i would have tried to talk the lady into some 38 ammo at least.
for my m.i.l., i make some 125 gr fp's cast, that i sit and hollow point for her then scribe the nose.
painstaking yes, but she can practice with regular boolits cheap.
as these are about all she can handle,at least she can get off more than one shot.
and i know she at least gets some practice.

Tom W.
06-20-2009, 06:19 PM
Opportunities lost... It could have been a chance to invite them to the range and show them what they needed to know. I know that FMJ aren't the best choice for a defensive round, but they're just fine for punching paper and getting acclimated to a firearm. I bought a box of .38 special "white box"once, for my wife, so she could shoot my .357 and I think there are about 40 rounds left.

montana_charlie
06-20-2009, 06:44 PM
Hindsight is always better, so don't feel bad if somebody comes up with an idea that you wish you had thought of.

In your place, I would have gently made this suggetion to the old lady...

Ma'am, Mr. (store owner) here probably knows which loads would work best for your situation, but it would probably seem like he is trying to talk you into spending more money.
If you and I take time for a short conversation about ammunition choices, I might convince you that the more expensive type is better for your job...and safer, too.

If successful, you would have helped out the lady and the store owner.

As for the young guy with the .44...well, he probably wouldn't have listened much, anyway.

CM

Geraldo
06-20-2009, 09:06 PM
You could have made the world a safer place if you'd told the young guy that his .44 couldn't be reloaded.

imashooter2
06-20-2009, 09:34 PM
Less expensive FMJ ammunition is perfectly suited to plinking and paper punching and is used for same by millions who do not reload. That is a perfectly valid reason for a store to stock it. Also from your report, the owner offered more suitable ammunition, but the customers wrongly rejected it based on cost.

I see nothing of interest here except that you're upset because you feel you should have offered knowledge but you didn't.

KYCaster
06-21-2009, 12:36 AM
OK....I'm gonna play the Devil's advocate here. I can speak with some authority because I have been a small (very small) business owner for the past thirty years.

Now, I don't know what motivated this guy to open a gun shop, or how he feels about his relationship with his customers. I can tell you that when a new customer comes into his shop, his primary goal is to get that customer's money. Secondary to that is to get that customer to come back later and spend more money. I don't know about your shop owner but third on the list for me is to think that I have given the best value to the customer for the money he spent with me, and that both he and I are happy with the transaction.

The little old lady will never be back in his shop. When her nephew inherits her estate he'll find the .357 under the socks in the bureau drawer and the full box of ammo in the back of the top drawer in the china cabinet. Treat her with courtesy and respect while she's in the store and sell her what she asks for. If she wanted advice she would have brought her nephew with her.

The young guy with the .44? You never know. He might just want one cartridge to shoot himself in your parking lot, or he may become a lifelong customer. If the business requires, say, eighty dollars an hour in sales just to break even, how much time can you justify for your markup on one box of ammo? Again, be courteous and respectful, sell the guy what he asks for and offer him your special beginners orientation course. Maybe he'll come back later and say, "I shot some of those bullets you sold me and.........."

A key phrase in your post is, " As a life long shooter I wanted to jump in and teach/educate these people who so desperately needed it."......Isn't it possible that the shop owner has the same desire, and that his position as a gun shop owner gives him the opportunity to help educate lots of people? Isn't it possible that those particular customers didn't want an education, they just wanted a box of ammo?

Maybe you could offer your services as an instructor. Leave some cards in the shop and ask them to include one with every sale. It could lead to some very rewarding experiences.

If you believe that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", then you can't restrict the sale of guns and ammo to those who have been educated in their use. You can't have it both ways.

Just trying to look at the situation from the other side.
Jerry

Buckshot
06-21-2009, 02:42 AM
.............I don't know about the young man, but I'll bet the older gal might have welcomed a bit of advice. The pistol was her husbands, and she'd never shot it. We don't even know if she'd been with him when he'd shot it? Heck, she might even have been afraid of it, but felt she had to do SOMETHING since she no longer felt safe in her apartment building?

I definately DO think the shop owner was amiss, and did not do the right thing in not spending a bit of time with her to find out what if any experience she had with ANY firearm. If none or not much and it had been me, and she had been receptive to the idea, I would have sold her a box of mild 38's. This way she could get used to the feel of it by actually shooting it, ejecting the empties and reloading. You try that out then come back and we'll see what options we have.

After that I would have offered the more expensive 'engineered' 357 personal defense type ammo with the suggestion she also fire a couple cylinders of them, and explained why.

Heck she probably picked the cheapest ammo because 357 ammunition IS after all 357 ammunition isn't it? It should all do the same thing, right? Nope, I don't think the store owner had her best interest foremost. Sounded like he didn't care.

..............Buckshot

HeavyMetal
06-21-2009, 02:57 AM
I'll have to agree with KYcaster the store owner has to make a profit or he won't be in business next week to help you out with components!

I also deal in sales and yes you can't belive how "fixated" some people can become on price!

I've lost deals for less than $10.00 and this on a $40,000 deal!

I've also had "customers" buy the cheapest machine they could find, net or catalog, and then have the.......nerve to ask me to fix it for free because they had a warranty and wasn't I a dealer?

I guess these are the same guys that will buy a Ford and take it to the local Chrysler dealer because they are closer? Go figure!

As to the two customers. The odds are the little old lady will go home put the box in the nightstand with the revolver and figure she'll have plenty of time to load it if she needs to. If the shop owner did not offer some "safety" tips like training or the basic trigger lock then yes he is a fault for failure to get a second sale using just plain common sense as his tool.

The young guy with the 44? Odds are he'll fire one cylinder full and bring it in to sell / trade for a 22 pistol! Otherwise it's headed for the top dresser drawer as well!

Here in California, and believe me I am not using this as a good example, trigger locks are mandatory before you can leave the shop with a purchase.

State law says if you leave a gun where any unauthorized person can get it you, as the owner, are liable!

The dealers here would have most likely scared the snot out of your little old lady! As to the 44 buyer, they may have gotten him enrolled in a class with a firearms training instructor, or not, depending a lot on the guys ego size!

Did you do right by not interfering? YES! I have done so and been rudely told to mind my own business!

This is the gun shop owners call and his liaibility. Making a suggestion after the fact, as you did when you asked questions, was the prudent thing to do.

Now if you know a local range officer that is qualified you might get him to go back in with you and set up a meeting with the owner and suggest another tactic if the same oppertunity presents itself to him again.

The idea is to get him to understand that one box of shells today is not as smart a move as getting both those customers to buy a box a month!

Convince him he is "throwing" customers away and you may do something for him, our sport, and the kid that old lady may shoot by accident when her cat scares her some night!

Recluse
06-21-2009, 03:10 AM
After everyone had left and it was just the owner and me i asked him if he considered what those FMJs could do and that they were not exactly defense loads. I asked him, "You know that a FMJ would just poke a small hole in someone and just piss him off, not stop him, right?"

But I am very disturbed by this encounter. As a life long shooter I wanted to jump in and teach/educate these people who so desperately needed it.

I believe in the 2nd Amendment but I am very uneasy with people like those two carrying firearms.

I guess what really bothered me was why have that FMJ ammo in the display counter at all. Except for shooting steel targets I don't see any use so why stock it.

Whew boy. . . . where to start, where to start?

Been kicking this one around, and there just isn't any way to say this gracefully.

I have all kinds of problems with the scenario you presented, but biggest problem of all isn't with the shop owner or the customers--it's with you. And here's why:

I asked him, "You know that a FMJ would just poke a small hole in someone and just piss him off, not stop him, right?"

Don't know your (shooting) background, but I know mine. Ex-military, ex-law enforcement. And as such, your knowledge of ammunition is DISMALLY lacking. I lost count of the number of people I saw dead from FMJ .22LR, .25ACP, .32 and .38 Special FMJ ammunition in the years I wore a badge. And, there WAS NO counting the number of dead combatants I saw in foreign lands who expired at the hands of FMJ ammunition.

In fact, it is precisely BECAUSE of many of my experiences that I carry FMJ ammo in my .45ACP and my .380ACP handguns. What's more, I have zero reservations whatsoever about carrying FMJ in ANY of my firearms.

So here is another non-shooter running around with what is in effect AP ammo

I think you need to do at least some cursory research on ammunition. Your above statement about FMJ being synonymous with armor-piercing is the kind of bravo sierra the media--same one you bemoan and worry about--loves to hear guys like you spout so they can use it live at six and ten.

I guess what really bothered me was why have that FMJ ammo in the display counter at all. Except for shooting steel targets I don't see any use so why stock it.

His shop, his wants, HIS PROFIT MARGIN, therefore, his choice. Just because YOU do not see any use for FMJ (what's more, your not having any use for it is based upon huge erroneous perceptions) does NOT mean he doesn't have a right--or duty--to stock it.


But I am very disturbed by this encounter. As a life long shooter I wanted to jump in and teach/educate these people who so desperately needed it.

Likewise, I am equally disturbed by your complete lack of knowledge and facts regarding ammunition, it's capabilities, suitability and what basic American gun-owners, especially novices, are comfortable with.

You desperately need some education as well.

I believe in the 2nd Amendment but I am very uneasy with people like those two carrying firearms.

Some could very well have those same feelings about gun-owners/shooters such as yourself--and as another member so aptly stated, "you can't have it both ways."

I fully understand your frustration over the two gun-owners' lack of knowledge regarding their firearms, but I'M also experiencing similar frustration over your lack of knowledge about primarily ammunition, and to a lesser extent, what it takes to successfully operate a business.

I have heard people offer their "opinions" in gun stores more times than I care to remember. I've heard a lot of flat-out WRONG advice given. A month ago, a guy claiming to be a thirty-year retired Marine tried convincing a woman and her husband that a .380ACP had better knock-down ability than a .38 Special +P. He pointed to his USMC Retired ballcap and his "stories" of his "heroics" in Afghanistan as "proof" that he was an expert.

Two of us regulars in the store finally called his BS and nudged the woman and her husband to the side, along with the guy behind the counter. She'd never owned or even fired a gun--ANY gun--ever before in her life. She settled on a nice 4" S&W Model 66. Retired Marine got PO'd and stormed out.

Folks like that do more damage to the perception of the Second Amendment and those of us who honor it and defend it than do all the hooligans and gangsters who do drive-bys.

Please, Windrider, please take some time to learn history and capabilities of some of the ammo out there. And if you don't know, then don't offer an opinion--especially to novice owners/shooters.

Novices TRUST US to give them solid, factual information. When they find out--and they will, eventually--what one of us said is totally wrong/false, it doesn't do ANY of us any good.

:coffee:

klcarroll
06-21-2009, 04:18 AM
I'm not going to challenge anyone else's expertise here.

.....I will simply say that a lifetime of shooting has given me a clear understanding of what "appropriate load choice" is all about.

I have also spent quite a few years behind the counter in gun shops. The reason I was hired to be behind that counter was that I knew just a little bit about firearms and ammunition.

It was always my belief that I had a responsibility to my customers (and the community) to share what I knew, ......particularly with first-time firearms owners! This is simply good business practice, and I can think of many, many occasions where this kind of personal interest cultivated long-term customers.

Having said that, ....I have to blunt, and say that any arguement that forgives the lack of involvement by the store owner for "economic reasons" is simply misguided!

Are we really supposed to believe that he didn't have a box of lead 38 Special or 44 Special on the shelf, as opposed to the high-priced Jacketed Magnum Loads that were offered???

......And if profit was the only force acting on this store owner, then why didn't he reach over to the next shelf, and offer a box of reloads in the same calibers?? ........They carry about twice the markup factory ammo will bear!

For a small "Bricks & Mortar" gunshop to survive these days, in a market dominated by national chains and on-line sales, they have to offer something more: ....And that thing is called "Real Service"! If you just want to be an "order-taker", .....Well, .......McDonalds is hiring!

Kent

NSP64
06-21-2009, 07:41 AM
Windrider919, Why didn't you step up and say something? I was in a store the other week, and in walk a couple in their 60's. I was just browsing, but still heard glimpses of their conversation with the clerk. They had never shot a gun in their lives, but now felt a need for (not 1 but 3 guns). I had overheard them and struck up a conversation about different models and the Plus and minuses of them.They picked out a new Combat shotgun(pistol grip, extended mag, strap on the front pump), 3" sp101, 6" gp100.The clerk showed them ammo for all their purchases (buckshot & FMJ down to #8 and Glassers). They were interested in stopping power VS. penetration. So the I stated the best for the shotgun would be the Birdshot and glasses for the Handguns. I also suggested they get some 38 spl rounds to practice with to get used to the handguns. That seemed to make sense to them and purchased 4 packs of Glassers and 2-50 rnd boxes of 38SWC loads, Plus 2 boxes of birdshot(#6) loads .
They seemed Happy and thanked me for my assistance. I ended up buying nothing.

cajun shooter
06-21-2009, 08:07 AM
First Let me say that if you think a woman in her 50's or 60's is an older lady then your lifetime of reloading or shooting is "SHORT". I will agree with Recluse on this one as I've seen a lot of dead bodies from the FMJ's. They are the worst choice for shooting steel as they will maybe come back at you. My lifelong experience has put me in a gun store as a employee, uniform as solider, and uniform as a Police Officer. I'm 62 at this point and time. I will say they could have made better choices but that the hard truth is that the owner with his investment in the store sold his wares. My problem with things such as yours is the fact that every one is blaming Obama for the mess in the gun industry( I voted for the other man)and he has not signed into law anything that caused this!! We only have ourselves to blame with the panic buying and running around yelling the sky is falling the sky is falling. I have two friends who own gun stores and they have had to use wheel barrows to carry the money to the bank since last November!! The hard truth and lesson that you should walk away with is that you can't be your brother's keeper and if you spend your life trying you will die from stress at an early age.

Trapshooter
06-21-2009, 09:09 AM
I've tried a number of things in this sort of situation, some times successful (store happy, customer happy, me happy), other times, not so much (any one or more of them unhappy).

I've decided the best general strategy is to keep it zipped unless asked. Unless you know the person, know what they are trying to do, and what their resources are, financial, physical, and mental, your advise probably won't help and may hinder.

As my old fishing buddy used to say "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it is a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig".

Trapshooter

deltaenterprizes
06-21-2009, 10:14 AM
The shop owner should have offered 38 special loadings to the old lady and 44 special loadings to the guy.
I was in the gun businessfor 20 years and am also an NRA Certified Pistol,Rifle,Shotgun,Personal Protection and Home Firearms Safety instructor. I worked at an indoor range for about 15 years.
It never ceases to amaze me the idiots that have FFLs and know nothing about firearms safety or the products they are selling.
I did interfere in a sale where a lady was going to buy her 16 yr old son a 7mm Mag for Christmas. He wanted it because his older brother has a 270 and he wanted something bigger! LOL I explaned to her that the gun was way too powerful for an inexperienced shooter and that there was no need for that in South Louisiana.Neither the salesman or the customer were upset and the lady thanked me .

TAWILDCATT
06-21-2009, 12:10 PM
The one thing I have not heard in this discusion is GUN CLUB.maybe because I came from a state where there are more gun clubs than in most of the south.
I would have suggested they join a club and take a course.even if they dont take a course a good club will have members who will go out of there way to help.I had NRA certified instructor ratings for 30 yrs just gave it up as my eyes went on me.
thanks to VA I can now see better than any time.
I have often helped others.and also the poster could have stepped out side and
mentioned a club were they could shoot.
I got in trouble with a gunstore owner when he loballed a customer on appraisal
of a customers gun.I stepped out and bought it.at a fair price.he blasted me and I had done business with him when it was at his house.I never went back.he went out of business a yr latter.the person wanted ammo and dealer said he had none
and I was looking at several boxes at the time.
I have shoot since 1935 and cast and reloaded since 1937.my fater taught me to shoot with a 1903 at 10 yrs.he was an expert in the marines in WW1 and I have his medals.:coffeecom [smilie=1:

JSnover
06-21-2009, 12:41 PM
A polite, well-spoken approach is best. I've seen more examples of the other extreme, where the employees or other customers turn into armchair commandos and try to sell the biggest, baddest, most powerful weapon and ammunition to a new shooter - usually a woman. In most cases she leaves empty-handed because a couple of macho-muchacho types convinced her that the only reasonable option was to buy a gun that would knock the intruder through the wall, blast him into little pieces and wrap the chunks in butcher paper with one shot. Apparently women are turned off by that. I advised a friend of mine to buy a .22 for his first gun because he wanted his wife to be able to use it. I told him "it's your first gun, start small and work your way up to a serious defensive weapon. It won't take long and you'll have a lot more fun." I invited him to the range to try my 1911 but he told me "that thing's a dinosaur, I want something good." had just heard about the Desert Eagle .50 AE and his mind was made up. They went to the range, fired one magazine, sold the gun back to the dealer and gave up on the whole idea.
At least I tried.

softpoint
06-21-2009, 02:28 PM
I'm agreeing with KY caster. and I live in a rural area and often carry Keith swc. in my Smith mountain gun for defense against both 2 and 4 legged varmints. I think the people probably could have purchased better ammo for thier needs, There have probably been more people killed with fmj out of handguns than all other handgun loads combined. Even the little 9mm has a tremendous pile of bodies behind it with fmj. There are those that will tell you a brain or spine, or heart hit will take at least a week to take effect if you are using non expanding ammo, and a shot with the latest hi-tech hollowpoint will instantly incapacitate with a raking earlobe hit. As most of us here at CB know, neither is true. I realize the problems of overpenetration, but I think too much is made of it. Most confrontations simply don't happen in crowded elevators. Perps have a habit of plying their trade when no one else is around., And, neither of those folks may ever have to fire a shot. I've been around a few gunshops and stores where Ididn't think the customers were being given the correct advice, I too, learned you cannot be your brothers keeper. So, except for my ranting here at CB,I usually keep my trap shut! :^)

windrider919
06-22-2009, 04:49 AM
How to respond to the posts above. I did not ask anyone to agree or disagree with me. I just told of something I witnessed and threw it out for comment. And I got some interesting ones. Of course, those that agreed with me make me feel good and those that did not got my back fur up. Thats normal. But one went too far because he made assumptions based on too little evidence. How like so many law officers of my acquaintance. I address this to:

Recluse
Ill-Tempered Texan (Kind of says it all right there)

C Quote: So here is another non-shooter running around with what is in effect AP ammo

R Quote: I think you need to do at least some cursory research on ammunition. Your above statement about FMJ being synonymous with armor-piercing is the kind of bravo sierra the media--same one you bemoan and worry about--loves to hear guys like you spout so they can use it live at six and ten.

C: In response: I did not say it was AP, I said that it was “in effect”.
So, Exspert - In an apartment complex with sheetrock walls. Which bullet has the greater possibility of OVER PENERATION and chance of hitting someone un-intentionally? A FMJ or an expanding bullet? You speak of experience, well, I have some too. I have shot multiple walls in the real world and I can flatly say that the FMJ goes through more walls than the HP expander. Like about 2 to 1 on the average. And yes, as a not common exception, I saw where the HP collapsed and became like a FMJ. Additionally, I have had the pleasure of shooting the caca out of many old cars in a country junkyard over the years and both you and I know that FMJ penetrates many more layers of sheetmetal than HP expanders.
As Per “cursory research on ammunition”, in 1984 and 85 I had the pleasure to be involved with a county effort to test and qualify ammunition that might be carried for duty. For this project I had to review all the previous research papers available. And then we actually tested both factory and hand load rounds in real ballistic gelatin and improvised bullet stops like wet newsprint and water tanks. And we tested penetration in wall sections made of various materials. AND finally, we shot into stop boxes with multiple layers of things like, you guessed it –sheetrock!, to see how many layers would be penetrated.
I did not mean FMJ was AP, I just was making a point that it had much more danger of over penetration. Most people got it.

C Quote: But I am very disturbed by this encounter. As a life long shooter I wanted to jump in and teach/educate these people who so desperately needed it.

R Quote: Likewise, I am equally disturbed by your complete lack of knowledge and facts regarding ammunition, it's capabilities, suitability and what basic American gun-owners, especially novices, are comfortable with.

C: And once again, you display YOUR lack of knowledge of MY “knowledge and facts regarding ammunition, it's capabilities, suitability and what non-shooters and novices are comfortable with.” I have great pride that I have taught many individuals both male and female to shoot, from those who wanted only defensive shooting lessons to those individuals who found it to be a pleasurable sport and whom I taught not just shooting but also brief firearms history and types, bullet construction, human and animal anatomy for lethal shots, basic flight and wound ballistics, reloading and match shooting.

And finally, as to you assertion that FMJ ammo has killed many, yes no one can deny that. But is it the best choice for a defensive, stopping round. I think few would agree with your prejudice. General Hatcher and the extensive modern testing by the US Dept of Justice / FBI labs on wound channels have shown that FMJ bullets leave small wound channels and do not cause much trauma or deliver much energy into a flesh target. HP expanders however, those designed and manufactured to be fired in real, short barreled revolvers or pistols at human targets, that expand to create a large wound channel with lots of trauma. In doing so they expend a great deal of kinetic energy in the target. ALL testing has shown that the more energy you leave in the target the more lethal. Thats why a bullet that just punches through without expanding or just a little expansion causes so little an effect UNLESS a vital organ is hit and disrupted. If it keeps on flying it carries with it that kinetic energy that was wasted by not leaving it in the target. Do you deny that the more trauma the quicker (on average and discounting the ones high on Angel dust) the perp goes down? I do know what they SHOULD have been guided to buy that would have been more suitable. Your failure is to assume that because I made no suggestions I did not know what to recommend.

And finally. The reason I did not join in and help was because it was glaringly obvious that no assistance was wanted. Rather than be rudely rejected I just held my tongue. What I was trying to say is that It was hard to not help them anyway and I did feel guilty for that. And Yes, if someone is going to be a BAD example of gun ownership than I wish they were not owners. And I do not feel bad about feeling that at all.

armyrat1970
06-22-2009, 06:12 AM
Lot of good points here and I will post my thoughts. Windrider if you have the knowledge of shooting you say you should not call a FMJ round an AP. Your statement would tend to mean Armor Piercing, which it is not. It very well can be an overpenatrating round. I have often spoken up in stores when it seemed someone needed a little help about anything and gave my own experience. Have done it at gunshows, though I don't frequent them anymore. Any reasonable person will thank you for your opinion. If this was a newly opened store and you wanted to do business with them because of being close to home I don't think the owner would have minded you speaking up to either of the two customers to help them out. He probably would appreciate a new customer that knew what he was talking about and give experienced help to other customers with limited knowledge. The older women could have been helped in making a better choice of cartridges for the weapon that she has probably never fired just as well as the younger man. Both could have been suggested to take weapon classes to understand how to handle and fire a handgun before they actually needed to. You can safely bet that neither will know what to do if the situation arises when they would need to use them. I think both you and the owner were lax in not giving more advice and guideance to either of them. You being knowledgeable and not offering advice and perhaps him worrying about a sale and not doing the same. I think he would have made a sale anyway and you would have helped a couple of people with little or no knowledge make it a little safer for them and others. I think you both dropped the watermelon.

Recluse
06-22-2009, 11:13 AM
C: In response: I did not say it was AP, I said that it was “in effect”.

Semantics. Gasoline in a beer bottle with a rag stuffed in. . . "In effect, it's a bomb." Which is the same analogy you made with Amor Piercing. A cocktail is no more a bomb than FMJ is Armor Piercing.

Or, in our vernacular, a Remington 11-87 is no more an assault weapon (semi-auto) than FMJ is AP.


So, Exspert - In an apartment complex with sheetrock walls. Which bullet has the greater possibility of OVER PENERATION and chance of hitting someone un-intentionally? A FMJ or an expanding bullet?

Both.

Sheetrock stops nothing. Long time ago, my old outfit did some extensive testing on best ammuntion for our SOG teams to use during operations dealing with typical "Cabrini Green" type of drug raids where you generally discharged your weapon three out of four times you and you team operated.

Conclusion was that unless you hit a stud or metal brace/support, choice of ammunition was moot--it was ALL going through the wall.

We chose FMJ for our suppressed MP5s (which were brand new to us way back when) as well as ball-ammo for our Sig P220s. Lot of bad guys wear "ghetto armor" which is to say, multile heavy layers of clothing. FMJ offers a couple of distinct advantages in such situations:

1. Better penetration

2. Heavier bullet since no weight is lost in the HP cavity.

I know of several other law enforcement agencies who followed our lead, federal and state.


You speak of experience, well, I have some too. I have shot multiple walls in the real world

Unfortunately, I have had to shoot more than "multiple walls" for which to base my experience.

And, walls don't shoot back.


and I can flatly say that the FMJ goes through more walls than the HP expander. Like about 2 to 1 on the average. And yes, as a not common exception, I saw where the HP collapsed and became like a FMJ. Additionally, I have had the pleasure of shooting the caca out of many old cars in a country junkyard over the years and both you and I know that FMJ penetrates many more layers of sheetmetal than HP expanders.

Sure won't argue with you about the cars--but we needed ammo for one job. It's not always practical to call a quick halt during an operation to change ammo from "wall-safe ammo" to "car penetrating ammo." If we had time to do that, we would've also had time to change our underwear, too, such were a few of the situations we found ourselves in. :)

As to your first statement (2:1), I would revise that to state that FMJ goes through walls easier than HP--I'll agree with that hands-down. But when we're talking sheetrock, just about any projectile with minimal force and velocity will penetrate it with ease.



As Per “cursory research on ammunition”, in 1984 and 85 I had the pleasure to be involved with a county effort to test and qualify ammunition that might be carried for duty. For this project I had to review all the previous research papers available. And then we actually tested both factory and hand load rounds in real ballistic gelatin and improvised bullet stops like wet newsprint and water tanks. And we tested penetration in wall sections made of various materials. AND finally, we shot into stop boxes with multiple layers of things like, you guessed it –sheetrock!, to see how many layers would be penetrated.

We probably oughta compare notes. I was on a DoJ team roughly at the same time doing the same thing (above mentioned search for new ammo). A lot of the previous research had significant flaws in it--which isn't unusual because shooting at sheetrock and wet phone books and ballistic clay and gelatin are all under very controlled conditions. Shooting at bad guys who are shooting back changes an awful lot of parameters. You do not have time to evaluate your results at the moment and see how they support your hypothesis or if they are suitable to become theory or law.

BUT, you have to test on something to at least have a starting point. Otherwise, you really are in the dark. That's the problem with so many of the "ballistic studies" that are out there.


I did not mean FMJ was AP, I just was making a point that it had much more danger of over penetration. Most people got it.

I will still argue. I've fired a LOT of armor piercing and even incindiery rounds. HUGE HUGE difference between them and off-the-shelf FMJ.

Again, it's categorizing any semi-auto as an "assault weapon" when it simply is not the case. As far as over-penetration, I still have several boxes of 124-grain Federal Hydrashok +P+ in 9mm that have the little "For Law Enforcement use only) stickers on them. In our own testing, that ammo often penetrated more than the standard Remington 115 ball ammo we practiced with. It was also a heckuva lot hotter, too.


And finally, as to you assertion that FMJ ammo has killed many, yes no one can deny that.

You were the one that wrote that you told the gun-store owner FMJ would just make a small hole and piss someone off. Not my words. And bottom line, your statement to the gun-store owner was grossly incorrect.


But is it the best choice for a defensive, stopping round. I think few would agree with your prejudice. General Hatcher and the extensive modern testing by the US Dept of Justice / FBI labs on wound channels have shown that FMJ bullets leave small wound channels and do not cause much trauma or deliver much energy into a flesh target.

But you know what else such testing leaves out?

If/when a FMJ exits the body, it's now made TWO holes rather than one. And, so far as the "wound channel," if/when a bullet penetrates and exits, it has made a larger, longer wound channel.

Not necessarily arguing in favor of FMJ for all defensive applications, just giving you some real life experience to mull over.


HP expanders however, those designed and manufactured to be fired in real, short barreled revolvers or pistols at human targets, that expand to create a large wound channel with lots of trauma. In doing so they expend a great deal of kinetic energy in the target. ALL testing has shown that the more energy you leave in the target the more lethal. Thats why a bullet that just punches through without expanding or just a little expansion causes so little an effect UNLESS a vital organ is hit and disrupted.

And here too is where ballistics "research and testing" versus real world can get tricky. Good friend of mine is a retired SF 18B (aka Green Beret weapons sgt) with lots of real world experience. He says, and I agree, that energy in the wound channel is good and necessary, but FIRST you have to MAKE a wound channel.

That takes penetration.

And that is why for lower velocity calibers (ie, .45 ACP, .380ACP, etc) I carry only FMJ. For high-velocity, no argument--I prefer HP for defensive purposes.

But remember: First you have to make a wound channel before it can be traumatized.


If it keeps on flying it carries with it that kinetic energy that was wasted by not leaving it in the target. Do you deny that the more trauma the quicker (on average and discounting the ones high on Angel dust) the perp goes down? I do know what they SHOULD have been guided to buy that would have been more suitable. Your failure is to assume that because I made no suggestions I did not know what to recommend.

First and foremost, you have to have penetration. Period. Anything can expand and look impressive in ballistic gelatin or water jugs or watermelons.

Putting rounds through a thick leather coat with several other layers underneath it, middle of the night, is another story. First thing I want in the bad guy is lead--and I want it as deep as possible. Then, I want as much as possible.

I'm not arguing that FMJ is superior to HP for defensive purposes. I'm arguing--adamantly--against your assertions and words that FMJ is basically useless and not good for anything other than shooting steel.

That kind of completely false misinformation is simply more of what the gun community doesn't need. Period.


And finally. The reason I did not join in and help was because it was glaringly obvious that no assistance was wanted. Rather than be rudely rejected I just held my tongue. What I was trying to say is that It was hard to not help them anyway and I did feel guilty for that. And Yes, if someone is going to be a BAD example of gun ownership than I wish they were not owners. And I do not feel bad about feeling that at all.

I certainly hear you there. What do you do? Someone comes in and either has an "I know exactly what I want because my nephew gave me this gun and he once read an issue of Guns & Ammo and watched a Massad Ayoob video so I trust him to always be right" mentality, or, they come in with a .44 and figure if Dirty Harry could do it, so can they.

Hard as it is, sometimes you just have to shake your head and bite your tongue.

And it's hard to do that, ain't it? Goes against our grain.

:coffee:

Mtman314
06-22-2009, 03:19 PM
I was at the Quigley shoot in Forsyth this past weekend. I got to talking to a couple of folks and one guy was selling mould handles and I gave him this site and found out he was already a member. Later I spoke to others one from Missoula and another from Miles City and passed along this site addy along with how much you guys have helped me out so far. When I hear a question I usually put in what has worked for me and the only way that I keep silent is when I'm asked to shut up or if I have no personal experience.

I stopped by a buddy's home this morning and he just got his mountain man outfit made. He then asked me what I knew about black powder and showed me a pistol he just traded for. Sometime this week we are getting together at my place and do some teaching, along with getting a smoke pole up on his shoulder. Told him we'll find out if he's a real mountain man if he gets hooked on the smoke poles.

Suo Gan
06-22-2009, 11:26 PM
I worked with a guy one time, we called him "The Colonel" because he had an uncanny resemblance to Colonal Sanders. He was a good natured guy, who had the gift of gab, and in his off time he spent every minute in the local gun shop. It was may favorite of the three gun shops in town, as luck would have it. The gun shop was run by a great gunsmith...Anyway, this fellow, "The Colonel" made it miserable for every patron that the gunsmith got so much so that he began losing customers, including myself. The Colonel upon entering the store felt it was his God given duty to inform every two legged critter that walked through the door about every gun, scope, projectile, or camo gear there was. I always found it hard to understand how he was able to have personal experience with everything. He would start out by saying "When we tested that in Nam..." of "When I was with the Highway Patrol..." to validate his knowledge. Eventually the gunsmith got rid of him, but not before losing all of his customers, and selling out to another person (true story).

I guess there is a time and place for helping others etc. but they have to want it, and it has to be in moderation, and even this may piss people off...even if you are nice.

And Colonel if you are out there...sorry that your hangout was sold...tuff luck man.

windrider919
06-23-2009, 01:57 AM
Recluse; Reading you last post [#25] I found that actually I agree with you on most of what you said.. for example on the dividing line where FMJ should be used (.380 n down) vs higher velocity/ caliber, and penetration through heavy clothing. And I get your point which really was the same as I was trying to put forth. I understood your point that; There is no one right bullet because the shooting conditions and target change. We must load for what we best expect to encounter and since as you point out, if conditions change we may just have to do the best we can with what we have. For that you have selected the FMJ as best all around. I do differ because I select the heavy expanding bullet to get the most penetration and try to generate the largest wound channel. I base this on:

Patrick, Urey W.:"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness." U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1989.

odson, Shawn: "Reality of the Street? A Practical Analysis of Offender Gunshot Wound Reaction for Law Enforcement." Tactical Briefs, 4(2); April 2001

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SanAngeloWBW_Report.pdf

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

There are a lot of garbage reports out there but these sites have some of the best links to the reports that changed my mind on what to load. I lost my collection of American Rifleman in flooding from a hurricane but I believe I first read the 1989 report summarized in there. "Reality of the Street" is as real world as it gets with actual shootings broken down.

I would say that my cardinal rule is not to shoot unless I know what is behind my target. I don't shoot anything less than .40 and I pick the heavier weight bullets because I want it to penetrate and not be stopped by heavy clothing or a door jam. But because I want it to expand and make the largest wound channel I will not use FMJ.

Jim
06-23-2009, 04:04 AM
I worked in a gunshop for a few months doing everything BUT selling. Weekly, I was amazed at the people that bought high end automatic handguns, complete with all the bells and whistles, that had no clue how to operate said type of firearm. "What's this thingy?" I'm thinking "Dear God". I wouldn't want to be in the same county with somebody like that, nevermind an apartment building.

theperfessor
06-23-2009, 11:02 AM
I'm a professional teacher - its how I make a living. I get PAID to convey factual information to people who are PAYING to listen and learn. And I try to clearly indicate when I am offering an opinion or drawing a conclusion versus simply stating verifiable facts.

This is in the classroom.

When I go to a gun store I keep my mouth shut and bite my tongue when I hear/see people say or buy stupid things, even though I've often left with the figurative taste of blood in my mouth. Believe me when I say that one of the HARDEST things to get a teacher to do is to not teach.

The only time I offer advice is when it is asked for, i.e the owner will refer a customer to me by saying something like "this guy casts a lot, maybe he could help you out".

Most un-asked for advice is generally unwelcome by most (not all) people. Hard as it is sometimes I've learned to keep my pie hole shut.