Making ends meet.

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

How critical is it that the patch end meet after two wraps?

I was patching my .40cal Minies last evening and I took me a while to get into the swing of the paper stretch for perfect patching.

[docone31]

I have not found it to be that critical.
I fire smokeless however. I have underlap, overlap, rarely do I get them to meet exactly.

[357maximum]

Mine overlap 3/32 or so ...no issues thus far in the 35 rem.

[longbow]

Once again, I have to say I am no expert here but my understanding of the principles is that the reason for the parallelogram patch is so that the spiral edge crosses lands and grooves so is sealed even if there is a gap.

It also makes it easier to start the wrap.

A straight edge with a gap could allow gas to blow by. Not saying it doesn't work you understand.

A little overlap shouldn't hurt but too much might result in either tearing of the patch edge or worse, an off center boolit.

Personally, being an old fashioned kinda guy I look to the past and figure the ammunition manufacturers made parallelogram patches for good reasons and I think a little gap is better than overlap.

A good way to estimate patch length is to wrap the dry paper 3 times tightly around the boolit then slit the nose or base edge through all three wraps. Unroll and measure between 3 slits ~ a little shorter than that is where you want your dry patch (for 2 wraps) to allow for some stretch.

Like I said, I am no expert, this is what I do.

Longbow

[windrider919]

When I first started I had some patches that overlapped. Just to see I sorted them out and shot them against patched bullets that has a small gap (like 1/32).

I shot 20 rds in 5 shot groups of the overlap off the bench rest and then 20 rds of gap bullets. Results were that the main group was about the same with the overlaps, maybe just slightly larger. I said 'main' because I got a flyer with every group of overlaps yet the gap PP only had one serious flyer for the whole series.

Looking at recovered bullets that have been PP it can be seen that the rifling still engraves the bullet just slightly. If there was a strip of overlap thicker than the other area of the bullet then it will be pressed deeper into the bullet. I cannot prove it but I've been reloading since 1973 and I believe any distortion of a bullets roundness affects accuracy. The smaller the distortion the smaller the effect but a slanted strip of overlap on the cylindrical section of the bullet .001 to .002 thick is a pretty good 'dent'. The great thing about PP is that if a patch displease you you can just peal it off and repatch. You dont have to shoot anything but your best bullets.

[357maximum]

When I first started I had some patches that overlapped. Just to see I sorted them out and shot them against patched bullets that has a small gap (like 1/32).

I shot 20 rds in 5 shot groups of the overlap off the bench rest and then 20 rds of gap bullets. Results were that the main group was about the same with the overlaps, maybe just slightly larger. I said 'main' because I got a flyer with every group of overlaps yet the gap PP only had one serious flyer for the whole series.

Looking at recovered bullets that have been PP it can be seen that the rifling still engraves the bullet just slightly. If there was a strip of overlap thicker than the other area of the bullet then it will be pressed deeper into the bullet. I cannot prove it but I've been reloading since 1973 and I believe any distortion of a bullets roundness affects accuracy. The smaller the distortion the smaller the effect but a slanted strip of overlap on the cylindrical section of the bullet .001 to .002 thick is a pretty good 'dent'. The great thing about PP is that if a patch displease you you can just peal it off and repatch. You dont have to shoot anything but your best bullets.


I have no doubt that what you say is right on. I just need to back up in order to see it. I post size after wrapping right now, and when I stripped a patch off from an overlaid seam...I could just barely perceive what you speak of. At 100 yards it does not seem to be a group killer, but I still want to make the overlap go away....I just need some more practice rolling em first.

[303Guy]

It just so happens that I tested this very thing. Take a look -

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-909F.jpg

I have another rather interesting fired boolit but cannot find the pic so I shall start again and show you folks. (It is amazing how revealing these digital pics can be!)

[303Guy]

This is the boolit I want to show you.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-087F.jpg

And here it is!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-102F.jpg

You may be wondering why there are two 'overlap' impressions.[smilie=1:

[windrider919]

actually 303Guy, if it completely circles the bullet I would think it cancels out any bad effects. Only if it was on one side would it cause any real effect. I think my paper is thicker because my 'impression' of the overlap appears deeper than yours. Of course I am shooting .454 wrapped to .462 in a .458 groove dia barrel so it swages down somewhat more.

[303Guy]

What I did was to glue a thin strip on the under side of a single wrap to match the overlap. The idea was to have a completely symmetrical boolit. I have no idea whether it actually makes any difference. It was just to be able to use my oversise prime castings. I have founf that if I allow a small overlap with a two wrap, I can shave the overlap using a sharp blade and end up with a perfect joint. Again, no idea whether it makes any difference. It just looks good!

See the joints?:roll:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-063F.jpg

[pdawg_shooter]

In my test any overlap on the second wrap affected accuracy. I think the overlap made the bullet slightly out of round when traveling down the barrel. A small gap on the final wrap (.010/.012) had no effect at the target.

[montana_charlie]

Assuming your paper is 2 thousandths thick, a gap will leave a ridge of that height on the bullet, and an overlap will produce a valley that deep.
Paper patching is considered to be an effective alternative to copper jackets.

If you bought a box of jacketed bullets with ridges or valleys on them...would you keep them?
CM

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-657F.jpg

Even without paper patches I get ridges and valleys!:mrgreen::mrgreen:

But point taken!:drinks:

[JeffinNZ]

I have made my template 2mm longer and the problem has gone away. :-)

The fine line between getting the damp paper to stretch and wasting my time is too fine for me. Just patched up about 80 of my .40cal Minies. It's a beautiful thing.

.303GUY: Peter, you are inspiration with all your experimenting etc but you must have 30 hour days!

[303Guy]

Hee hee, thanks! But not for long. Work is beginning to come in now. That's a double edged sword!:mrgreen:

[303Guy]

Actually 303Guy, if it completely circles the bullet I would think it cancels out any bad effects.That gave me an idea. It may not be a good idea but one I would like to test just the same.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-105F.jpg

The fired boolit in the pic actually had a double 'overlap'. windrider919's comment got me to thinking and the bottom boolit is the result. It's a spiral wound single wrap.

And here it is fired.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-106F.jpg

Those overlap impressions should be pretty symmetrical. (The curved line is from a hair trapped under the patch).

[RMulhern]

What I did was to glue a thin strip on the under side of a single wrap to match the overlap. The idea was to have a completely symmetrical boolit. I have no idea whether it actually makes any difference. It was just to be able to use my oversise prime castings. I have founf that if I allow a small overlap with a two wrap, I can shave the overlap using a sharp blade and end up with a perfect joint. Again, no idea whether it makes any difference. It just looks good!

See the joints?:roll:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-063F.jpg

303Guy

Here's a completely symmetrical bullet:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_908373a5.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=908373a5.jpg)

[303Guy]

FPMIII

Those are beautiful![smilie=w:

Are they swaged?

[RMulhern]

FPMIII

Those are beautiful![smilie=w:

Are they swaged?

No! I cast only! My Dad started me out casting bullets in 1948 so I've cast a few!! I can generally keep the weights within 3/10 gr. If I try real hard...2/10 grain!! These are cast at 1-16 tin/lead; 570 gr. KAL mould from Canada. The shorter bullet on the right is from a Brooks mould. The KAL mould is hollow base with .050" skirt and .080" deep concave base.:drinks::castmine:

[Red River Rick]

Are they swaged?

303Guy:

Those are perfect examples of well made "CAST" bullets, not swaged.


RRR

[montana_charlie]

303Guy,
Maybe you told us all about it back up the line somewhere, but I must have missed it.

What kind of medium are you shooting your bullets into...that allows you to recover them in such nice condition?

CM

[303Guy]

What kind of medium are you shooting your bullets into...that allows you to recover them in such nice condition?The main ingredient is very low velocity! Then it's just wet or damp rags shoved into a steel tube with a sand trap under that. If the boolit reaches the sand it gets quite scratched. The heavier and slower the boolit the better it seems to penetrate, to a point. A faster boolit in the range of real life shooting only demonstrates the expansion effect but the boolit does not reach the sand.

I started this thing while developing loads for the hornet (read playing around with the hornet). It got to be be quite fun. My favourite medium at that time was wet furniture padding.
I would cut the top off a medicinal beverage can and pack it with saturated padding. I learned a lot from those experiments.


http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-572F_edited.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-580F_edited.jpgCENSORED ( J-word!)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-887F.jpg

[303Guy]

Those are perfect examples of well made "CAST" bullets, not swaged. WOW! I feel honoured to be in the presence of such masters! :drinks:

That is so inspirational! I love it!:)

Ummm..... would you happen to have pics of the targets?:roll:

(P.S. We need a 'smiley' for 'bowing down in honour')

[Red River Rick]

WOW! I feel honoured to be in the presence of such masters!

303Guy:

I don't know if your being sarcastic, or not! :drinks:

No one mentioned anything about "MASTERS", I just said, "Perfect examples of cast bullets" nothing more, nothing less.

If you want pics of the targets, you'll have to ask Mr. M. I'm sure he could accomodate you.


RRR

[303Guy]

I don't know if your being sarcastic, or not!No, no, not at all! (I don't do sarcasm). That was meant in all sincerity! (The medicinal beverage solute is my way of paying tribute).:mrgreen:
:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

Ummm..... would you happen to have pics of the targets?
When Rick does post a target, he sometimes has to put up with accusations of fraud. But here is one of is recent submissions.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=589630&postcount=4

[RMulhern]

When Rick does post a target, he sometimes has to put up with accusations of fraud. But here is one of is recent submissions.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=589630&postcount=4

Charlie

Here's one of the most surprising; shot with my C. Sharps 50/90 from 1000 yds. This rifle has a 32" barrel and weighs in at slightly under 15# with Hoke rear tang sight and Distant Thunder front sight installed. This is 10 rounds fired with all rounds impacting from center of the 10 ring to slightly right. The 'splatters' toward the left side are just that; where the slugs disintergrated and knocked the paint off. I didn't have a zero for this bullet at this range but I just estimated my setting from the 800 yd. zero I did have, applied the setting used and the first two shots hit almost dead center. The rifle is a joy to shoot!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_879a12df.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=879a12df.jpg)

This was fired using this bullet shown in the middle of photo that DanT designed and one which clearcrickshooter had a post about over on the Shiloh Forum a while back:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_e76ca99b.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=e76ca99b.jpg)

I had been working with a .50 caliber bullet of 650 gr. weight with a flat meplat of .160" while all the time I was thinking that I needed a somewhat longer and heavier bullet shaped along the lines of the DanT 'Money Bullet' and Lo & Behold....clearcrickshooter came out with his post about the bullet shown above! This bullet weighs 710 grs. cast at 1-16. I had Steve Brooks make me a mould and by golly....this elliptical design of DanTs is a dream come true!!

As for the claims of 'fraud'....that doesn't bother me at all! I know the truth and that's all that matters!!:drinks::wink:

[303Guy]

WOW! Thanks for the awesome pics. Those boolits are just beautiful! I had no idea it was actually possible. I had of course heard of the long range Shiloh Sharps but didn't realise the rumours were true! Not at those distances anyway! And all that from the black powder era! That's awesome. I love it!:drinks:

FPMIII

Would you mind if I keep a copy of your pics on my album?

[RMulhern]

303Guy

OK by me!:drinks:

[303Guy]

I have now figured out how to 'make ends meet'.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-118F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-119F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-120F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MakingEndsMeet-1.jpgThe bottom one is dried, 30° cut.

Easy![smilie=1: