Homemade powder- what was it?

[jonk]

I remember some months ago someone posting about powders and prices, and one guy weighed in "Good thing I know how to make X". It wasn't black powder, it wasn't smokeless. I had never heard of it. I looked it up and sure enough, it was a type of gunpowder I'd not heard of. I think the poster was from Australia or such but that's all I remember and could be wrong.

Now I wanna know JUST BECAUSE :D

[Leftoverdj]

Mary Pickford?

Expatriates stranded in Singapore during WWII ground old silent films to make shotgun powder, but I'm afraid movies on celluloid are now more scarce than powder.

[inuhbad]

My guess would be he was talking about Cordite. It's incredibly easy stuff to make yourself if you have a sizable knowledge of chemistry and the right chemicals.

Leftoverdj, I'm not sure (I could be mistaken), but I think modern ping-pong balls are still made of celluloid.

According to some reference and chemical books I've read, before it dries it holds extremely similar properties to blasting gelatin.

[jonk]

I think it had ammonium nitrate in it.

[lylejb]

if it had ammonium nitrate it would be corrosive!! probably worse than actual black powder. i don't think i would want that in my guns....

[Rocky Raab]

Vitamin C makes a decent gunpowder. Honest. That was the major ingredient in a gunpowder that used to be sold as "(something) Gold". It was made here in Utah as an offshoot of a blasting powder the company made from the same stuff. They still make the blasting agent.

[Firebird]

There is a "white" powder recipe that uses table sugar for the fuel (instead of carbon as in black powder). There is a "red" powder that uses iron oxide (rust) for the oxidizer (instead of potassium nitrate). All a recipe needs is a fuel and an oxidizer, and sometimes a secondary fuel to keep the reaction going (the role of sulfur in black powder) and to have everything in proper proportion for the chemical reaction that occurs.

Here's a link (http://www.roguesci.org/index.html) to some interesting recipes.

[trooperdan]

I beleive it was ammonpulver, described in the links below:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=870652

http://forum1.aimoo.com/Cast___Boolits__/Special-Projects/Ammonpulver-Part-Six-Finding-t-1-466864.html

ammonpulver is 85 percetn ammonium nitrate, 15 percent charcoal. It has been used in rifle ammunition but the crystals of ammonium nitrate go through a phase change at about 30 C, as I recall, a fairly low temp anyway. The phase change breaks down the powder grains and increases the burning rate, probably to unsafe levels.

[jonk]

Bingo, that was it. Ammonpulver.

[looseprojectile]

In my days as an auto mechanic I have had the experience of screwdriver handles burning like smokeless powder. Probably old celluloid. Always wondered what would happen if I_____? It would take a lot of careful experimenting.
I am glad that the powder companies do what they do for us in the form of burning rates of smokeless powder. Just because, I prefer to know what to expect when I pull the trigger[smilie=1:.
I am one of those that wondered what would happen if you mixed gasoline with amonium nitrate instead of diesel. This kind of experimentation is not something you should do at home. I have participated in testing Dynamite using steel plates and measuring the deformation to determine it's power. I have made thousands of gallons of Napalm.
I have worked for the Hercules powder company at a manufacturing plant.
Lots of safety rules, precautions and equipment.
The inventor/owner of Pyrodex died in a plant explosion in Washington state.
Just a few thoughts on the subject.:coffee:

Life is good

[MtGun44]

Maybe we should change the name of the thread to "How to convert you Winchester
into a pipe bomb" ? :-)

Not that brave or desperate.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

or is your life worth $20 a pound

[jdgabbard]

If I had to make my own, I think I'd stick with black powder. It seems much safer to make and use.

[jonk]

From what I've read, the ammonpulver is very easy to make and rather hard to ignite, often requiring a kicker charge- and low pressure to boot.

As long as you keep it under 86 degrees.

That's a pretty stringent rule and would make me nervous.

I just like learning about what can be done even if I don't plan on doing it though.

[leadeye]

I'm with Lloyd on that one, it's not worth the cost of new powder. Worked in the chemical industry for thirty years and saw three big fires, it's different when you get paid to take risks like that.

[Mtman314]

I have read that during one of the world wars {i believe ww1} that the germans used ammonia nitrate in place of gunpowder due to a lack of gunpowder. they had to coat the inside of the brass with a varnish in order to keep the ammonia nitrate from going inert by touching the brass. Like I said I read it I don't have info on it.

I was working in the chemical plant portion of the foundry when we were adding Ammonia nitrate to the slurry and the guys were smoking while cutting open the bags. They didn't believe me until the supervisor went down and chewed them out for being stupid.

[briang]

Reminds me of the time a saw a guy smoke while sitting on the cage full of propane tanks.

[lead Foot]

Making your own powder is forte with danger, proceed at your peril. This is a great thread I just love reading about this stuff. It amazes me the amount of knowledge people on this forum have.
Lead foot;

[Jim]

http://onlinebooks.110mb.com/tm%2031-210/31-210-01-09.htm

Here's another variation. Of coarse, this is for entertainment purposes only.

[Mtman314]

I've also heard that if you have to stretch Black powder mix it in equal portions with sugar. A lb to a lb with no drop in power. Of course the cleanup might be a bit sticky {pun intended} and need to clean alot more often.

[S.R.Custom]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned gun cotton...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose

[Old Ironsights]

Then there is "brown Powder (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/81724/brown-powder)" which uses incompletely charred alder... harder to ignite with a cap, but much more static sensitive...

[inuhbad]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned gun cotton...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose

Nitrocellulose by itself hasn't commonly been used as a propellant due to its fast burn rate - as such it is often considered as more of an explosive than a propellant.

Nitrocellulose is usually used as a basis for a multitude of modern smokeless powders in a compound form. Typically it's mixed with NitroGlycerin, binders, and other things to create some impressive modern powders with more controlled burn rates.

As I mentioned earlier, nitrocellulose is used in the manufacture of Cordite Mark I, but for liability reasons, I removed the 'instructions' on how to make it (Cordite). With a moderate education in chemistry one could very easily make their own Cordite Mark I smokeless propellant, but part of the process tends to be rather dangerous so I wouldn't recommend attempting it - not to mention you'd need an ATF-E license to manufacture explosives - even in small quantity.

[WILCO]

Life is good

Indeed!

[mroliver77]

There used to be a Scandinavian fellow that wrote about gun stuff online. He claimed in WW2 the Germans had such a tight grip on his country that any firearm and loading component was very hard to get. He talks of a doctor that manufactured a "blue powder" for loading cartriges for the underground that did a lot of damage to the bad guys. They perfected a "cats sneeze" round that was a heavy boolit with a small charge of fast powder that gave very low noise signature wn
hen fired. These were used to "remove" certain officers by headshots at fairly close range. I hope if we ever find ourselves in such a state that somebody will know how to manufacture the necesary components top remove the enemy.
Jay

[Linstrum]

About ammonpulver, I'm coming into this thread a bit late, but maybe somebody will see it.


I did a series of very extensive experiments with ammonpulver in rifle cartridges about four or five years ago and posted the results here, they are probably still here back in about 2004, or so..

Ammonpulver is a very energetic powder with an energy content about equal to powders like 2400, Blue Dot, or Bullseye, which are all quite powerful. Its burn rate is controlled the same way as other powders by changing the grain size, and I found that the ammonpulver I made ranged in burn rate from about IMR3031 or IMR4895 down to around IMR4350 in granulations about like corn meal on down to Cream of Wheat, the finer the granulation the faster it burns. It is also flashless as well as a truly smokeless powder, the combustion products are nitrogen, carbon monoxide, and water in the form of steam; all of which are clear colorless gases. Because of the inevitable ash from the wood charcoal, a very tiny amount of smoke in the form of a colloidal dust is briefly seen, and when the temperature is low and humidity high the condensed steam is also seen as "smoke" that very rapidly disappears.


As has already been mentioned, ammonpulver is simply a finely ground mixture of carefully dried ammonium nitrate and charcoal (ammonium nitrate is highly hygroscopic and readily absorbs moisture from the air and when left out in the open it turns into a soupy puddle), the range of proportions that prove useful are from about 80% ammonium nitrate and 20% charcoal, to 90% ammonium nitrate and 10% charcoal. The chemically balanced equation gives very close to 86.96% ammonium nitrate and 13.04% charcoal (87% and 13% are close enough). However, I did all my experiments with the most commonly used proportions of 85% ammonium nitrate and 15% dead-burnt charcoal. It is of utmost importance to use dead-burnt charcoal since the creosotes left from partially roasted wood make the powder unstable and possibly subject to spontaneous ignition. The partially roasted wood charcoal that was used for canon powder by the U.S. Navy in the 1890s is probably what blew up the U.S. battleship Maine in Havana Harbor in Cuba in 1898, setting off the Spanish American War. At the time in 1898, it was rumored that a Spanish torpedo or sea mine was responsible for the Maine sinking, however later problems with auto-ignition of the so-called "cocoa powder" made using partially roasted charcoal that was still a reddish-brown color is most likely what ignited the canon powder magazine aboard the Maine, blowing it up and sinking it in seconds. Anyway, to be safe, the charcoal used for making ammonpulver should conduct electricity, ensuring that it is dead burnt and has no creosote left in it.


Ammonpulver is by far the safest powder to make, it can be repeatedly pounded with a 16-oz ball-peen hammer on a steel anvil without igniting it or detonation, unlike black powder and most other smokeless powders, and when it does burn unconfined it just barely burns. I tested this myself over and over again, and to be sure of its characteristics I even spread 100 grains of ammonpulver in a thick layer on an aluminum baking sheet in a toaster oven with a door that did not latch, and then from a safe distance I turned the heat up while using binoculars to watch through the Pyrex window in the oven door to see what happened. At about the melting point of the ammonium nitrate it finally ignited, quietly glowing orange for about 15 seconds until nothing but a tiny pinch of ash from the wood charcoal was left. I would not recommend doing that with 100 grains of Blue Dot!

I eventually tested several loads in 7.62x54R Russian, .30-06, 6.5 Swedish Mauser, and 7.5x54 French. With just a regular large rifle primer nothing happens, the bullet lodges in the barrel throat with the charge of ammonpulver behind it, making a mess in the cartridge well when I opened the bolt. In researching how ammonpulver was used by the Austrians in their canon loads, I never did find out how they ignited the ammonpulver. After finding that just a primer by itself did nothing to ignite the powder, I started out with small amounts IMR4895 over the flash hole and equally small amounts of ammonpulver on top of it separated from the IMR4895 by a thin tuft of toilet tissue to keep the two materials out of contact with one another. I fired my duplex-charged cartridges in a junker Mosin-Nagant, that rifle having been proven to be darned hard to blow up by a member here at Cast Boolits who did a blow-up test using Bullseye or a similar fast powder. Using the same rifle over and over again for the blow-up test, he never succeeded in getting the barrel to rupture or getting anything to let go violently, it finally just bent the bolt and melted the brass cartridge after several full cases of fast shotgun/pistol powder. I chose a Mosin-Nagant because of his test, and when I first fired my rifle I lowered it down a hole in the ground with a string on the trigger in case something did fly apart. I used successively larger amounts of IMR4895 and fine grain-size ammonpulver until as I recall I had about 25% IMR4895 as a booster/initiator and 75% ammonpulver with a total combined propellant weight of somewhere around 45 grains pushing a 150 or 180-grain .311 jacketed bullet (I don't remember the exact powder charge and bullet weight, I need to look it up in my notes). I kept an eye on the primers for signs of pressure and never had anything bad show up over quite a few test firings. When I finally fired the rifle above ground, I compared performance with a standard IMR4895 load and from "reading" the depth of bullet penetration into the clay bank I used for my backstop I figured the velocity was somewhere around 2200 feet per second from the 20-inch barrel of my model 59 Mosin-Nagant carbine. I recall that the odor of the ammonpulver smoke was quite pleasant, having an odor a bit reminiscent of almonds.


I did some math on powder charges and came up with a formula I used for calculating ammonpulver loads based on cartridge length-to-volume ratios and the base 10 logarithm of the powder weight. I also need to look that up in my notes.


When I was done for the day with testing loads, I thoroughly washed the rifle inside and out in hot water and liquid dish detergent to keep any ammonium nitrate residue from rusting things to pieces, it is just as corrosive as using chlorate primers! Also, to make sure the rifle was thoroughly dried out, I made a vacuum chamber to dry it in from of a piece of 4" (I think it is 4", I haven't taken my vacuum chamber out of storage yet from moving) schedule 80 PVC plastic water pipe with end caps. I needed the vacuum chamber since I was also going to try out ammonpulver loads in my Remington 700 BDL .30-06, Swedish m96 Mauser, and others, and I sure didn't want to rust up my $600 Remington 700 BDL!


Anyway, I found out that ammonpulver works darned good in cartridges like the ones I mentioned, and when boosted with about 25% by weight of IMR4895 it behaves about like IMR3031 or IMR4895 on down to IMR4350, depending on granulation. If I ever get low on powder (a little is still needed for a booster) I can still keep on shooting as long as I have fertilizer-grade ammonium nitrate and good low-ash soft charcoal (like from grape vines, willow, avocado, or even white pine wood) available. Compared to regular black powder made with saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur, it is extremely safe to make, as well as it leaves absolutely no residue at all.


rl576

[SciFiJim]

Linstrum - Thank you for the excellent post. That one got saved to me offline notes for further consideration.