Flintlock loads

[6pt-sika]

I would like to know the minimum - preferred and maximum loads for the following .

45 caliber with Goex 3F and a patched roundball -

50 caliber with Goex 3F and a patched roundball -

50 caliber with Goex 2F and a patched roundball -

54 caliber with Goex 2F and a patched roundball -


Any and all help is appreciatted ! However at the moment I am only intrested in exactly what I asked .

I realize different rifles will prefer different charges . So lets not get into that part of this !

[lonewolf5347]

50 caliber with Goex 3F and a patched roundball
my load in my 50 cal. using goex 3F
min: target at the range 60 grains
max: hunting load 95 grains,I also use a wad under the patched RB (54 cal. wad in a 50 cal. bore)
45 cal. the same as above (50 cal. wad)
both my flinters will tack drive RB out to 100 yards .

[Geraldo]

I've always gone by the old standard of 1gr per .01" of caliber and it's always worked well for target loads. So this is what I use:

.45 cal=45gr 3f
.50 cal=50gr (either 2f or 3f, although I usually use 3f in .50)
.54=50-60gr 2f

[Old Ironsights]

No such thing. as an objective "preferred" load...ESPECIALLY in muzzlestuffers. The guns are so different that that list for Gun (A) will shoot for crap or be dangerous for Gun (B)

For MINIMUM/plinker loads Geraldo has about as good advice as anything.

Maximum is entirely dependent on the Age & Type of gun. I can shoot a max load from my Stainless TC Flinter that would likely detonate another gun, though in practice most of the guys in my ML club will say that a 2x Dia-Grain charge is a "max hunting load" (i.e. .45 = 90gr, .50 = 100gr, etc.)

[Maven]

6pt-sika, I have a Dixie Tenn. Mtn. flintlock that's limited to 80gr. FFg (by Dixie) with a .490" (.018" patch) or .495" RB (.010" patch). However, I generally use 70grs. FFFg (max.) down to 30grs. for 25yd. target work since it's a bit cleaner than FFg.

[mooman76]

Like old Ironsites said. There is no minimum load for BP run it down to whatever you want. I'd suggest starting at 45g for 45 and so on drop 5 gr. at a time until you get where you want. As for maximum each rifle is different and going up too much is just a waist of powder. BP get real inefficiant real quick after a certain point and you are basically wasting powder. I have run mine over max loads and hard of other going way beyond, not that I am recommending you do it but it really is just wasting powder. If you go online to whaterver company made your ML there should be a recommended max loads. If you can't I would go with what Old Ironsites said again of max = double the caliber, beyond that is a waist of powder.

[ktw]

I would like to know the minimum - preferred and maximum loads for the following .

45 caliber with Goex 3F and a patched roundball -

In my 45 I shoot 90gr GEOX 3F for hunting and 60gr 3f for practice. I have a fixed size, 90gr, antler powder measure and a 30gr spout on the powder flask. Two throws for fun, three for serious work. Prime the pan with same 3F.

I tried 45 through 90 in 5gr increments. 90gr shoots best in that rifle.

Also shoot a 54, but only with 3F and that falls outside your specific request.

-ktw

[madcaster]

Probably not much help,but I always used 80 grains 3f in a .54 flinter,40 grains 3f in a .40,and 65 grains in a 20 guage smoothbore...

[FL-Flinter]

No such thing. as an objective "preferred" load...ESPECIALLY in muzzlestuffers. The guns are so different that that list for Gun (A) will shoot for crap or be dangerous for Gun (B)


That sums it up quite well because you never know what each individual gun is going to like. Had a .32 rifle that ran better on 2F than anything else; a .62 that ran great with whatever granulation you happened to have handy; .45 that would not shoot with more than 40gr of 3F and another one that was deadly accurate with any amount of 2F or 1F from 40gr to 110gr but refused to run on 3F.

Maximum load is ALWAYS determined by the manufacturer.

Don't forget that accuracy with any given load will also depend upon: the twist rate; groove depth; bore condition; vent diameter; patch type & thickness; ball diameter and alloy; manner in wich the powder is put in the bore; PRB starting/seating manner and consistency ....

Some years back I built myself a Virginia style in .50cal with a 7/8" octagon bbl. Nice, light, handled well and produced excellent accuracy. Only thing I didn't care for was the buttplate so I sold the rifle giving the new owner the exact load combination I was using that would easily drill the balls into 3" or less @ 100yds from the bench all day long. Couple weeks later he's on the phone griping that it won't stay on the paper at 50yds - no problem, I'll make it right. He brought it back, can't find anything wrong so I take it out and print a nice group just as it always did. After a long phone conversation and his insisting the rifle was bad, we went to the range together. Found the problem before he even fired the first shot - pounding the ball down using the RR like he was driving pilings for a north Atlantic pier then bouncing the RR several times once the ball was seated. Once I explained to him that when you beat the crap out of the ball, it has a hard time flying straight and demonstrated how to load it properly .... like magic he was shooting great groups too.

[northmn]

When I chronographed some loads (I posted them on this thread a while back) I found that my 50 with its 36 inch barrel kind of topped out a 80 grains of 3f. I have seen very few 50's that do not like 50 grains up close. The 80 grains load gave in the uppers 1800's and 90 grains only gave about 70 Fps increase. For 45's most like about 40-50 grains and use between 65-70 grains 3f. I used loads in that range with good results. My 54 likes 70 grains of 2f up close and about 90-100 for hunting. As to max for a 54, I never tried for it. Most ML's seem to have a point where they kind of top out like my 50. Where increasing the powder charge does not get a lot of return, just more fouling. I had a 58 that liked 70 grains up close and then wanted 110. Did not like to shoot well in between.

Northmn

[6pt-sika]

No such thing. as an objective "preferred" load...ESPECIALLY in muzzlestuffers. The guns are so different that that list for Gun (A) will shoot for crap or be dangerous for Gun (B)



In my "original" post I stated I didn't want to get in a debate over this as I understand that different rifles prefer different things .

[6pt-sika]

No such thing. as an objective "preferred" load...ESPECIALLY in muzzlestuffers. The guns are so different that that list for Gun (A) will shoot for crap or be dangerous for Gun (B)



In my "original" post I stated I didn't want to get in a debate over this as I understand that different rifles prefer different things .

[Hanshi]

I would like to know the minimum - preferred and maximum loads for the following .

45 caliber with Goex 3F and a patched roundball -

50 caliber with Goex 3F and a patched roundball -

50 caliber with Goex 2F and a patched roundball -

54 caliber with Goex 2F and a patched roundball -


Any and all help is appreciatted ! However at the moment I am only intrested in exactly what I asked .

I realize different rifles will prefer different charges . So lets not get into that part of this !

.45 caliber minimum 53 grains 3f, maximum 80 grains.
.50 caliber min. 53 grains 3f, max 100 grains
.50 caliber min. 53 grains 2f, max 100 grains
.54 caliber min. 53 grains 2f, max 110 grains

[6pt-sika]

Okay for hunting loads itlooks as if something in the following should be what I shoot for ;

45 cal 80-90 grains FFFG

50 cal 90-100 grains either FFG or FFFG

54 caliber 90-110 grains FFG

[longbow]

You might find this link useful as a guideline but pretty much all has been said above about reasonable charges:

http://www.buckskinnerweb.com/pastgate/notebook/loads/optload.htm

Some manufacturers state more or less for max. charge so best to check. My .50 cal. is rated to 110 grs. with round ball and 90 with Maxi.

Just found a link listing Thompson Center recommended loads too:

http://hunting.about.com/od/blackpowder/a/tcrifleloads.htm

Longbow

[725]

Everybody is trying to be helpful, but the correct answer must be garnered from the manufacture. The entire range of an original front stuffer two hundred years old to some tight Remington 700ML and up is covered in your question. Some Spanish kit guns would never have me behind the trigger, regardless of the load. Best thing is to do your research at the maker and use good judgement. Good luck & be safe.

[Old Ironsights]

In my "original" post I stated I didn't want to get in a debate over this as I understand that different rifles prefer different things .
Understood, but that is also why I pointed out that some rifles will simply Blow Up with the wrong "max charge". Kind of like my error on the "Snubby" thread. Don't talk .357 snubby loads when people can interpret them as being useful in .38s.

I have a load for MY flintlock that I use for exhibitions that would quite likely destroy most hand-built guns modern or otherwise. It tends to get the attention of the EBR guys when you start shooting a 500gr custom REAL over 150gr 3F out of a Stainless Steel & Black Plastic Flintlock.

By ignoring the "every gun is different" factor the question of Max/Min becomes essentially pointless so all you can really go on is the old standard "rules of thumb".

So, I wasn't ignoring or the question or starting a pissing match over it, just making sure that people (not you) didn't get the wrong impression and then use some load that grenaded their 200y/o heirloom flinter.

[405]

I have one old flinter in 52/53 cal. It's over 200 years old. I shoot it. So as far as max loads wouldn't even think of it. About 30 grs of 2F under patched roundball is plenty good for me. On the other extreme, some of the special purpose MLs including the inlines... who knows the max loads? Some can even handle an insane amount of blackpowder but the rewards will amount to nothing more than a lot of recoil, fouling, smoke, impressions for an audience :) and little in the way of reward in accuracy or velocity.

Since that jet of fire out the hole and all the commotion outside the barrel can be damaging to flinters and in some cases caplocks, even if the gun is modern and steel is good and all that I still load all of them sanely. After all, if it is targets then who cares the magnum ballistics potential. And for hunting, especially with roundballs, they are a limited range gun anyway. So I think what has been posted is valid. The idea that there is a "knee" in the powder vs velocity curve is correct. Much past about 1.5-2.0 X the bullet diameter the curve really shows the law of "diminishing returns" when shooting blackpowder.

With the patched roundball in a flinter I've found a powder charge equivalent to about 1 X caliber is a good load for all around target and fun shooting. For hunting I've found about 1.5 X caliber is good. Since 3F is a little faster and generates a little more pressure the charges are adjusted slightly. I primarily shoot 2F powder. For example in the 50 cal flinter my fun load is 50 grains 2F under a roundball. For hunting my standard is 75 grains 2F under a roundball. I'm sure my 50 cal flinter will "handle" a much stiffer charge since it is modern and well made but there's no point is even trying to figure the maximum load.

The Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, 2nd Edition shows all manner of loads with pressures in psi. Some of the loads listed are obviously meant for modern inlines and show pressures approaching 30,000 psi! Yikes that is some pressure! My max best loads seem to fall somewhere around 10-12,000 psi. There is a disclaimer at the beginning of the chapter which goes something like.... "may not be safe in all muzzleloaders... shooter's responsibility to check with gun manufacturer for max recommended loads.

[madcaster]

[QUOTE=405;589613]I have one old flinter in 52/53 cal. It's over 200 years old. I shoot it.

Pictures PLEASE!!!

[Old Ironsights]

... Some can even handle an insane amount of blackpowder but the rewards will amount to nothing more than a lot of recoil, fouling, smoke, impressions for an audience :) and little in the way of reward in accuracy or velocity.

Since that jet of fire out the hole and all the commotion outside the barrel can be damaging to flinters and in some cases caplocks,...

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: One of the nice things about the Firestorm is the vent hole has a nice, removable double-coned liner, so even if it erodes badly it's easy to replace.

But O Yeah... showing off for the EBR crowd is 3/4 the fun.

The other 1/4 of the fun is showing up at a Traditional event (Flints only!) with a Stainless Steel & Polymer gun. :twisted:

[northmn]

Okay for hunting loads itlooks as if something in the following should be what I shoot for ;

45 cal 80-90 grains FFFG

50 cal 90-100 grains either FFG or FFFG

54 caliber 90-110 grains FFG

With the exception of the 54 I would say you might be overdoing the max loads. As I mentioned I more or less topped out in my 50 with 80 grains of 3f. the 90-100 of 2F would be about the same. The 45 will do the same with about 70 grains of 3f. Essentially if you like to go real hot in a smaller bore you should get a bigger bore as round ball cannot be "magnumized" You also run into the fact that when driven hotter they tend to lose velocity quicker and really do not gain as much as you would think down range.

Northmn

[405]

Yep, the smaller the sphere the more inefficient. Something like- the ratio of surface area of a sphere to its mass decreases as its diameter increases.

madcaster a couple other pics in earlier ML thread. It's an Afghan Jezail. The barrel could easily be over 250 years old. The lock is dated 1806 and marked VEIC (Venerable East India Co.) :)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=51368

[longbow]

If you are really curious about the pressures generated by black powder under round balls, minies, Maxis or any otherr common projectile pick up a Lyman Black Powder Handbook. Lyman has published load data for most common rifle and handgun calibers with a variety of powder makes and projectiles.

I agree it is best to start with the manufacturer of your particular gun for recommended loads. If the gun isn't proofed or the manufacturer doesn't provide loading data you shouldn't be shooting it without proofing it first.

Also, unless things have changed a bunch most if not all the Spanish and Italian guns from reputable manufacturers are proofed as are most others. Listed in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook:

- Green River Rifle Works
- H&R
- High Standard
- Info from the Italian and Spanish proof houses
- Navy Arms
- Numerich Arms
- Ruger
- Thompson Center

This is from an old edition (1975) so may be dated but the point is that muzzleloaders are firearms and any mainstream quality manufacturer will be following the same practices of manufacture and proofing as they would for any modern firearm.

[piwo]

I've settled on 90 grains 3F in the .54 flinter. 2F gives me less velocity, tougher cleanup, and certainly no better accuracy. I've stoked her up even more in the past, but settled in on the 90 grain load.

[Geraldo]

With the exception of the 54 I would say you might be overdoing the max loads. As I mentioned I more or less topped out in my 50 with 80 grains of 3f. the 90-100 of 2F would be about the same. The 45 will do the same with about 70 grains of 3f. Essentially if you like to go real hot in a smaller bore you should get a bigger bore as round ball cannot be "magnumized" You also run into the fact that when driven hotter they tend to lose velocity quicker and really do not gain as much as you would think down range.

Northmn

There is also the question of how much powder you can actually burn in a given caliber barrel of a given length. In other words, the maximum practical load would be less in a 32" .50 than it would in a 42" .50. I don't worry about this as I don't stoke mine up to the top anyway.

If you're going to use 3f instead of 2f, the recommendation I have seen is to use 10-15% less 3f for the same velocity/energy.