First Round?

[Bigjohn]

I am seeking your thoughts on this matter, in relation to Cast Boolits;

Since I started shooting many years ago, I have heard, been told or read, that in some or most cases the first round fired from a cold, clean or cold & clean bore will impact in a different position on the target.

My questions are;

Have any of you experienced this with cast boolits?

What were your circumstances?

And do you take this into account when hunting?

Is there any difference between a cold, clean or cold & clean bore?

IMHO, there may not be enough variation in P.O.I. under hunting circumstances to warrant making sighting allowances for it at the ranges I intend to hunting (0 to 200).

I know for a fact that I have a couple of rifles which I need to foul the bore of, so it shoots to P.O.A. in a match.

With hunting conditions; you are more likely to fire only one round, which will be from a cold bore, for the whole hunt; unless you happen to be strafing :mrgreen: the local gopher town.

John

[nicholst55]

Snipers worry about the point-of-impact from a cold, clean bore; some leave a bore fouled and record their zero from a cold, fouled bore. I honestly don't think it's worth worrying about for the rest of us, unless you have one of those quirky rifles that throws the first round 6-8" at 100 yards.

I once had an M16A1 assigned to me that would shift POI significantly after firing two rounds. The difference was enough that it would routinely miss reduced silhouette targets at 25 meters! They are quite small, though. I was fortunate enough to be able to fire it enough to learn it's quirks, and scored Expert with it several times. It was accurate, if you knew where it was going to hit!

I tried everything I could think of to get it to stop shifting POI without success. I finally dropped a barrel straightness gage down it, and discovered that it was slightly bent. I had my Small Arms guy replace the barrel.

[44man]

Yes, it happens, sometimes enough to miss. It depends on the gun and the bullet. Too many times when I went to a silhouette shoot with a clean gun I would miss the first chicken and hit all 39 of the rest. I quit cleaning the gun or would take a shot before I left home.
The easiest thing to do is to never hunt with a clean bore. I never clean any gun until the season is over.

[joeb33050]

How to Determine “first shot hit” accuracy
Most rifles will shoot the first shot from a cold clean barrel into a different place than where it will center subsequent shots from a warm fouled (even slightly) barrel. If the game is to shoot one shot at a woodchuck at 150 yards, or an egg at 250 yards, or the center of the German ring target at 200 yards; then the shooter needs to know the bore condition maximizing accuracy and needs to adjust the sights for that bore condition.
There are three possible starting bore conditions: clean and dry, clean and oiled and uncleaned. In all cases the barrel will be cold for the first shot.
(This is the least interesting testing I have ever done, I need to have another gun to shoot or I become impatient and shoot too fast-this ruins the test.)
Use a proven accurate load for your rifle.
Shooting is done from the bench, allowing at least five minutes between shots for the barrel to cool. This testing will take several hours. Start with a clean and dry barrel. Fire the shot. Clean and dry the barrel. Wait for the barrel to cool. Fire another shot, clean and dry the barrel. Continue. Clean the barrel with the same method each time, same number of patches, same brush if used, same cleaning solution, same everything.
At the end you will have a set of groups, the number depending on your patience; two or three groups will tell part of the story but five five shot groups is a good representative number. Measure the groups and calculate the average.
Then do the same with a clean and lightly oiled barrel.
Then do the same with an uncleaned barrel.
One of the three bore conditions will give you the smallest group size-for me it has most often been the uncleaned barrel that wins. Measure the group sizes; adjust the sights, test a few more shots and you’re done. With the stated bore condition you now have the all the possible first shot error out of the gun and will hit close to center on that first shot.

[Larry Gibson]

Depends on the load, the lube, the ambiant temperature and sometimes the rifle. A good, consistently accurate rifle will not throw the first shot out of group to any significant degree for hunting out to 200+ yards.

Most all of my CF rifle hunting loads are with a soft alloy diriven to 2000-2200 fps. I always clean the bore every 5-7 shots or the fouling reduces accuracy. I zero these rifles using the 1st three shots. Thus the 1st shot, many times when hunting, is with a "cold, clean" bore. I develop hunting loads with CF rifles using cast bullets that put that 1st shot into the group out to 200 yards.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Like has been said, fouling, the particular barrel's stress relieving (or lack thereof), and LUBE (not that this would necessarily be the worst offender) all may play a part. I'd like to suggest that one use a lube with cast that can remain in the barrel indefinitely like the 22 rimfire does without cleaning to eliminate that variable. Then if your barrel doesn't change POI as it heats up you should have a chance. Otherwise, sight in from a cold barrel for the first shot maybe (if it doesn't shift too radically too fast).

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I learned long ago from experience of the one shot miss from a clean barrel. When I have a gun/load that I intend to use a lot, I record my group from a lightly fouled barrel [1 fouling shot] , I zero my sights to HIT this mark for group.

I do this for hunting game / predators/varmints. It gives me a constant I know will be the same. I do not think a method for an easy way to hit the mark with a clean barrel/first shot has been found, unless you only shoot one shot and set your sights to that mark....then subsequent shots will be off....:groner:

There are a lot of issues here , so everyone needs to do his own homework, when I go to the range with clean barrels, I burn one before shooting the intended target.WFM:brokenima

[leadman]

I use LBT Blue Soft for a boolit lube. If the barrel has been cleaned it can take up to 5 shots for the group to settle down. Veral recommends that the barrel not be cleaned but if I am not going to shoot a gun for awhile I clean it.
My neighbor had a Remington 742 in 30-06 that the first couple shots from a clean & oiled bore would hit about 6" to the left of the normal group at 100 yards. He sold the rifle.

[JIMinPHX]

For me it varies from gun to gun & to a lesser extent it varies with the ammo I use. Some guns vary enough to be obvious. Some do not. .22rf seems to vary move with the ammo than centerfire calibers do. I find that a cold, lightly oiled bore usually gives me a little less deviation than a cold dry bore. That's usually, as in, it varies from gun to gun.

[Down South]

Yes, it happens, sometimes enough to miss. It depends on the gun and the bullet. Too many times when I went to a silhouette shoot with a clean gun I would miss the first chicken and hit all 39 of the rest. I quit cleaning the gun or would take a shot before I left home.
The easiest thing to do is to never hunt with a clean bore. I never clean any gun until the season is over.

Same here. When I clean a rifle I'll take up to three fowling shots with it before it is used again.

[TexRebel]

some of the really anally retentive and serious long range shooters clean the barrel after every shot so it is always the same shot after shot, i can not do this as I do not have the patience to take 10 minutes between shots

[BruceB]

When Karen and I competed actively in Bullseye pistol, we held to the dogma that (a) we NEVER started a match with a dirty gun, and (b) we never fired the start of a match with a clean barrel.

These may seem contradictory, so....

After each match, the handguns were cleaned to perfection, both .22s and centerfires, EXCEPT that the actual bores of the .22 pistols were not touched. Chambers, yes. Centerfires were cleaned throughout, including bores. Then, prior to the start of the next match, we'd find some secluded spot such as a rural ditch en route to the range, and quickly fire a magazine of target loads into said ditch. This of course removed any worries about clean-barrel / first-shot variance, without really diminishing the clean status of the guns.

Since the S&W Model 52s we used in centerfire were stone reliable in firing up to 300 rounds before commencing to get sluggish, we figured that the measly five fouling rounds would have very little effect on the reliability during a 90-round match (30 rounds in each of slow, timed, and rapid fire). We were right.

Nowadays with cast-boolit rifles, I try very earnestly to NEVER clean a rifle's bore, unless it's gotten wet, or some ill-conceived recipe has leaded the beast to a fare-thee-well. I have rifles here whose bores haven't seen a cleaning rod for literally YEARS, and they're shooting just great, thanks.

When I go hunting, jacketed or cast, my rifle will have the fouling from at least several rounds in the bore. It will also have tape over the muzzle to keep the bore in its "prepared" state. I've done it this way for decades, and have nothing to report to cause me to change the method.

[Bigjohn]

I started this thread because I thought it would be a good topic for discussion/conversation;

And, with some of the game I can get a shot off at around here, I would have to do the job with the first round through the bore, cold & clean. The country is just to close in for an animal once it gets going you will never see it again that day. Due to the number of longarms in the safe and the possiblity of a sudden hunting opportunity, the barrels are more than likely clean and oiled when I grab the rifle.

Stalking or ambush is the name of the game and you may as well use a single shot breech loader because all of their 'mates' are going to find quieter locals to feed or hide in once a shot has been fired.

The last hunt opportunity, I went to the range before and checked the shot placement with the ammo I used for the hunt as I normally used another brand of ammo for the competitions. I shot the buck with one round through a cold dirty bore. He was within two seconds of entering a forest through which I would not have been able to track him.

I wanted to know if other shooters had experienced this and what you are doing to overcome or allow for the variation (if they exist). I would need to test my own rifles to know what they will do in those situations.

John

[44man]

I never had a problem with just a cold barrel as long as there was at least one shot fired through it, even a week earlier. All shots hit POA even when hot.
Pistols, rifles and revolvers would get blazing hot during a match or when varmint hunting. But even the floated barrel on my XP 100 would miss the first shot if it was clean. It only took one shot to settle it.
This was never a problem with a muzzle loader, I could kill a deer with a cold, clean barrel or shoot 200 rounds at a match without ever wiping the bore. Is it the lube from the first patch?

[Rockydog]

I shoot an old Savage NRA19 .22 Target rifle. I sometimes suspect that bullet lube plays a big role. Over the years I've tried several different brands and types of bullets within brands. Sometimes I've switched 3 or 4 times in one range session. Maybe it's my imagination but I could swear that as I switch from one brand to another it takes 4 or 5 shots down a barrel fouled from the previous ammunition before a new brand settles into where it's going to shoot from this gun. I know it sounds crazy but ......

[S.R.Custom]

Stalking or ambush is the name of the game and you may as well use a single shot breech loader because all of their 'mates' are going to find quieter locals to feed or hide in once a shot has been fired...

...He was within two seconds of entering a forest through which I would not have been able to track him...

Indeed. When hunting, no shot is as important as the first one. And this whole business of the first shot going somewhere different from the succeeding ones is real, and it doesn't restrict itself to just cast bullets. And out here where shots can be in the neighborhood of 300 yards or more, it's a very real concern.

That said, when I sight in a hunting rifle, I plan on spending a whole day at the range. I'll start by shooting groups and adjusting the sights/scope accordingly. Then I'll thoroughly clean the bore, foul the bore with a couple rounds, and then set the gun aside in the shade and play with some of my other guns until the barrel is dead-nuts cold.

At this point, I'll fire just one shot, note its impact, adjust the sights accordingly, and then set the gun aside for another 45 minutes or so. I'll repeat this until I am satisfied I know where that first shot is going to go. Then I'll thoroughly clean the bore, put a few more foulers through it, and not fiddle with it again.

[Bigjohn]

Indeed. When hunting, no shot is as important as the first one. And this whole business of the first shot going somewhere different from the succeeding ones is real, and it doesn't restrict itself to just cast bullets. And out here where shots can be in the neighborhood of 300 yards or more, it's a very real concern.

That said, when I sight in a hunting rifle, I plan on spending a whole day at the range. I'll start by shooting groups and adjusting the sights/scope accordingly. Then I'll thoroughly clean the bore, foul the bore with a couple rounds, and then set the gun aside in the shade and play with some of my other guns until the barrel is dead-nuts cold.

At this point, I'll fire just one shot, note its impact, adjust the sights accordingly, and then set the gun aside for another 45 minutes or so. I'll repeat this until I am satisfied I know where that first shot is going to go. Then I'll thoroughly clean the bore, put a few more foulers through it, and not fiddle with it again.

Just to clarify my point a little more; Most of the game we have the opportunity to shoot at here in Australia and anywhere else in the world, are very capable of changing their local, quickly if they think there is a hunter around. Hence, if I have spent a lot of time getting into a position to have a shot presented to me, I don't want my shot to miss or heaven forbid, wound an animal, because it 'shoots' somewhere different to the rest of the group as a result of the bore conditions we are discussing.

Such a shot would mean the end of the days hunting and possibly a long difficult trial up of the wounded beast.

At present the rifle I wish to take out as my hunting rifle is with the gunsmith having the chamber bored for .303" Pygmy. Action is either a No.4 or No.5 Action LE.

John

[Larry Gibson]

Big John

Best bet is to develop your hunting load then test it from a cold clean barrel to see where the first round goes. I'll also suggest you test first round impact after shooting one and two foulers through the cold, clean barrel. Give the rifle plenty of time after the foulers, even waiting until the next day to see where the next round goes. I've found in colder weather that the hardening of the lube fouling can make that next round go as far if not farther from intended point of impact as with the barrel not fouled. Try to match the test times between a fouling shot and a potential hunting shot and weather conditions as close as you can.

Your rifle and load will tell you best what it will do with or without a fouled bore.

Larry Gibson

[Bigjohn]

Larry, I knew I would be in for a long range session once the rifle is finished. I thought I would fill in a bit of time with this discussion and see what other shooters have experienced.

It is interesting the number of possible effects or options which are coming out of it; including some I may not have thought of at the time.

My hope from this is a first round, first opportunity; after a lot of testing; kill and meat in the freezer.

John

[Kraschenbirn]

From my experience, the need for a fouling shot seems fairly uniform regardless of what rifle in shooting. With CBs, starting with a clean, cold barrel, my M700 .308 with its heavy McGowan tube will consistently print the first 5-shot group into 1 1/2" @ 100M with the last 4 rounds clustered slightly below the first. Same story with my Longbranch LE...first shot about 2"-2 1/2" high @ 100M with the next four (or nine, if I'm shooting a full mag) will clumped directly below. Not quite so pronounced with the K31 but still noticeable.

One the other hand, that same M700, with Sierra 168 MKs, shoots to same POA from a clean, DRY bore as from one with a few rounds run through it.

Bill

[JeffinNZ]

I have been shooting my .223 with cast a great deal lately and now the weather here is cold it throws the first round from a cold, dirty (have fired hundreds of cast in this rifle without cleaning) barrel. Temp today was 5 degrees C/43F and sure enough the first round went an inch high and 1/2 inch wide at 55 yards. Enough to miss a bunny at 100 yards. I think it is a factor of the residual lube/carbon in the barrel getting a bit stiff in the cold.

[felix]

That is correct, Jeff. Some lube's, and I cannot tell which ones EXACTLY, will get hard over time, from the atmosphere interaction (nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen) with it. An aluminium component (pots/pans) will have an effect for sure, because I have used aluminium stearate which emphasised the effect by default in order lower the lube ph on purpose. Lanolin does not like cold weather at all, so lubes for hunting weather should be lean on that component. 22LR over time also will loose accuracy. They typically use a carnauba, or a low molecule castor wax, or something like it to eliminate all greasiness. Those carbon rings build up in the leade, and will take effort to clean them out. If accuracy deteriorates all of a sudden, perhaps the ring got too hard and sized the boolit. ... felix

[Bret4207]

I must bare my soul here and admit I'm not a big cleaning freak. I clean my guns when they need it. The outside gets wiped down, yes, but the bore stays fouled till it tells me it's time to clean. I find the first 1 to 3 shots from a clean barrel land in a different group, especially with lead. This SEEMS more pronounced in my longer barreled rifles. My 26" Savage 99 303 seems to be the one that really needs foulers with lead after cleaning. In a way it sort of makes sense that a longer barrel needs a little more seasoning.