Old time casting? - as seen on TV

[Levant]

I'm interested in casting bullets to learn the skill for unnamed or unknown disasters that may come our way in the next 40 years. As a survival skill, electric or propane smelting equipment seems impractical.

I saw on an old western where the hero (Kirk Douglas, if I remember corrrectly), in camp at night, took out a cast iron ladle and melted lead over the campfire and then poured into a small hand mold similar to a pair of pliers.

So I was thinking of setting up to do that but a lot of questions come to mind.

First off, where would have a western hero have come by lead on the trail? Why would he carry lead instead of simply buying lead balls? Perhaps more importantly, why would I carry lead instead of lead bullets in an emergency? Ok, I know I might stumble on some lead where I just happen to have brass, primers, and powder, but.. You get the idea. Can someone shed some light on historical casting?

Thanks.

[whisler]

You might carry lead in the "old West" if you were using several different caliber weapons. You might also recover lead from downed game (buffalo, etc.) The mountain men were able to resupply with lead at renedezvous, etc.
Hope this sheds some light.

[Nora]

Also way back when, before things where interchangeable all of the barrels being hand made, were not the exact same size. For each firearm bought from a gun maker a mold was made and sold with it as a package deal of the correct size for that particular firearm. So in a sense, if they didn't cast their own, they'd have nothing to shoot.

[docone31]

It was reasonably common, for the mountain man back then, to carry his powder in a lead keg. As he needed powder, he would melt some of the keg. At least that was what I had read.
I have seen films of those guys sitting around the campfire, melting lead, singing, cooking beans, casting boolitts. After casting thousands of successful boolitts, I now go, hmmmm.
Have you ever tried hitting the small hole on those one holer plier type of mold?
I have a feeling, the few that reloaded back then, set a day aside and cast a bunch ahead.
I have tried to use those plier type of molds. There are definately better men out there. I even saw an Ideal mold/reloading press. Now, that would be awkward indeed. Plus, the hinge point would eject the lube and either wear, or freeze with the heat of casting.
I can see, makeing a powder keg out of lead. I am not sure I can see snipping off some at a time and keeping the powder intact. Sure, you could fold a seam and keep it dry, but they were reputed at being 20lbs of lead plus powder. Needed a pack horse at least.
With campfire casting, it can be done, but I bet no one who campfire cast fired a bunch of rounds when they went into a town.
I bought one of those "campfire" molds back when I wanted to cast for a slingshot.
I couldn't do it, or make it work. It just did not happen.
A pot over an open fire, with a ladle. Sure. Those handle type of molds do cast. They take some getting used to though. I finally got one to work in .50cal. They get hot!
So, they also used heavy gloves.
Good food for thought though.
I wonder how many actually reloaded back then. Muzzle loaders excepted.
I know I go to the range with my front stuffer with 50 balls, and it takes me a while to fire them off. I suspect, a pocket full of balls would last an entire hunt at least.

[Levant]

Thanks for the great and interesting replies. I get the impression that many average men then were tougher than most of our toughest men today. These stories remind me of reading about English long bow archers shooting bows with 200 lb draw weights. Those guys you all are speaking of are just tough guys.

[1Shirt]

Back during my mountan man period which lasted about 20 years, I did a little campfire casting just to prove I could do it with those little brass molds. You can do it with a ladle with a pour spout, quite a bit of patients, a few burns, and a fair amount of cussin! Never produced what I would call quality balls, but did produce some that went down the tube with reasonable accuracy. Was better w/Lyman molds, but had trouble keeping them hot enough. Guess you do what you have to when you have to, and if ya don't know any better, you are probably satisfied with the results.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[45 2.1]

It was reasonably common, for the mountain man back then, to carry his powder in a lead keg. As he needed powder, he would melt some of the keg. At least that was what I had read.

This was written about in the Lewis and Clark journals. They carried sealed lead cylinders with the powder inside, safe and dry. The container, when needed was opened and the powder went into horns while the lead was cast into balls, the proper amount of powder supplied for the weight of lead in each container.

[atr]

interesting thread......I have an old lyman manual and on the back cover it shows a picture of a pioneer man and wife sitting next to the open fireplace in their cabin casting bullets.

[jonk]

I don't see that it is harder than casting anywhere else. But then I still use a modern mold. Sometimes camping I've taken a Lee Roundball mold and cast some after dinner.

[JSnover]

interesting thread......I have an old lyman manual and on the back cover it shows a picture of a pioneer man and wife sitting next to the open fireplace in their cabin casting bullets.

My guess is they'd carry some materials with them but would cast as many balls or boolits as they might need over the hearth, before they left. Sounds like it might have been a good job for The Boy while Pa made ready for the trip.

[bisley45]

Do you remember the movie the patriot mel gipson took his boys littile solder men and melted them down and casted some over a fire I guess they didnt know lead was bad for you back then to make kids toys out of it :roll:

[sheepdog]

There was another type of mould cowboys sometimes used that was basically a cookie cutter on riods made out of steel. Wasn't made for alot of use but sure in a spot it was handy. It was hinged and had a recess on both sides with a lipping on each side that matted for making a round ball. Rather than melting the lead one would heat it til soft then put a chuck in and beat it flat on the outside, cutting a round ball. Primitive and alot of work but doable. I see them now and than at auctions (sure many of them rusted), usually doubled as a belt bucket for easy carrying. think these were made by the south during the civil war and stay around til the pliers style was used more.

[fourarmed]

My dad had a couple of original percussion rifles for which he had the original molds. We would sit in front of the wood furnace in the basement. I would wear gloves and hold the mold while he poured lead into it from a ladle. The mold handles had a sprue-cutting section near the hinge pin, but as I recall, we cut off the sprues with side cutters. Those molds were so small that they heated up quite fast.

[JIMinPHX]

First off, where would have a western hero have come by lead on the trail?

Well, if you were a real man back then, after the bad guy shot you, you would dig his boolit out of you arm, cast it into a boolit that fit your gun & shoot it back at him (saving the day & getting the girl, of course). ;-)

[405]

Who knows? the percentage of folks who cast/reloaded their own during the various periods of the muzzleloader and blackpowder cartridge. I would imagine those who didn't and ran out wish they had!
Levant, I believe your inquiry and thinking is right on the mark. Any skill or knowledge such as this.... for the "what if" scenario is just smart.

[MoldyJoe]

In the historical stuff I have read, and my Mountain Man experience, when you purchased a rifle it came with a mold made specifically for that rifle. It was also not measured in caliber, but instead they were measured in how many round balls you could get per pound. It was also customary for them to carry several different "smoke poles", usually not of the same caliber. The suppliers came to rendevous with long shkinny 1 pound strips of lead due to the huge diversity of calibers and weapons so each shooter could make his own. Another example in the movies is "Jeremiah Johnson" (not a Redford fan myself, but reasonably accurate). Just my $.02. Joe

[mooman76]

Good read! Sound good and reasonable to me. I would imagine also lead was used more back then being easy to come by and use. Remember Sgt York, another good example. Shooter coming in fitfth gets to dig the lead out of the tree!

[Larry Gibson]

This was written about in the Lewis and Clark journals. They carried sealed lead cylinders with the powder inside, safe and dry. The container, when needed was opened and the powder went into horns while the lead was cast into balls, the proper amount of powder supplied for the weight of lead in each container.

45 2.1 is quite correct.

That is how it was done as reported in the journals of several expiditions, the mountain men and frontiermen in the old "Northwest" (Ohio and Minisota country). In my old muzzle loading days I also tried it with a Lyman dipper and an original plier type RB mold. Trick was to get, and keep, a good hot bed of coals going to melt the lead in the dipper and get it good and hot and keep it that way. The mould was kept on a rock right next to the coals to keep it hot also. The sprue was trimed off with a knife. I turned out some pretty passible RBs that I used in my .45 cal Pensylvania style rifle. Certainly not a "production" line but it didn't take long to cast up 30 or so good RBs which "back in the time" would have probably lasted quite a while as them boys weren't prone to "blastin" like we are today. Lessin' of course they was surrounded by a passel of hostiles;-)

Larry Gibson

[Leftoverdj]

Lead sheeting was a staple commodity fairly early, and much used as roofing by those who could afford it. It was also used to sheath ship hulls. When bullets got more important than roofs, it got stripped off.

I've also used the brass pincer moulds. I added wooden handles and assume my ancestors were at least as smart as I am. The mould they had to carry. The handles they did not.

[Wayne Smith]

When were the first mold/reloading tool available? Was Ideal the first? I know some of the Sharps were shipped with Ideal tools. I'm wondering if what you are discussing is OK for the Mountain Men and such but by the time of commercial Buffalo hunting the Ideal type tool was available with a decent mold on it.

I have a replica of a cast iron very small pot with feet designed to melt lead. It holds enough for about 2 .490 RB's. The feet are to hold it above the coals.

[DLCTEX]

I don't see a problem casting balls over a camp fire. When I was a kid, probably 1952 (7 years old) we cast toy soldiers with a small pot with a heating element in it. The pot had a pour spout and we poured directly into the molds, which worked better if heated on the gas burner of the cook stove. Each mold had guys in four positions IRRC. We allowed the hot mold to cool before opening it. This was a Christmas toy gift and kept us boys busy for hours on end. Burned fingers are fast teachers. I learned the basics of casting back then and it served me in good stead when I got into boolit casting.

[testhop]

back when i was in the U.S.AF a buddy and i cast up 300 cast boolits over a campfire .
i can tell you it surely wasn fun we both had blisters on both hands ( yes we wore heavy gloves )it was hot but we didnt think we in tpouble till the next day .
it was the last time i cast over a campfire.

[Levant]

This has turned into a great thread. The stories have been very interesting. It is amazing (but probably shouldn't be) how much knowledge there is on this forum. But then, mountain men and such - many of you guys are, no doubt, the type of men who would have cast bullets around a campfire 200 years ago as well.

[geargnasher]

I don't see a problem casting balls over a camp fire. When I was a kid, probably 1952 (7 years old) we cast toy soldiers with a small pot with a heating element in it. The pot had a pour spout and we poured directly into the molds, which worked better if heated on the gas burner of the cook stove. Each mold had guys in four positions IRRC. We allowed the hot mold to cool before opening it. This was a Christmas toy gift and kept us boys busy for hours on end. Burned fingers are fast teachers. I learned the basics of casting back then and it served me in good stead when I got into boolit casting.


Dale, do you have any idea what alloy came in those kits? I have heard they were mostly pure tin, but I don't know. Seems pure tin would be lots easier to melt and cast than lead or boolit alloy. It's a shame such neat Christmas presents are no longer to be found, thanks to enviro-wackos and lawyers.

As for reloading those campfire boolits, I think that Hollywood is only as historically and technically accurate as their directors and writers. Btw, remember that Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot missed with that special boolit, maybe that was because the soldier was made of tin and his point of impact was high!

Gear

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Like the man say-ed, rifle makers made molds for their product, so I am of the opinion that they were some of the first, with the flint locks , the Ideal Co. & others were probably contracted by the arms mfgs. to build mass produced molds later, just my humble opinion[smilie=1:

:castmine:[smilie=1:

[DLCTEX]

I suspect the alloy with the toy soldier sets was 60/40 plumber's solder, but I may be rememberimg what we used after ehausting the small amount that came with the set. I do remember using some lead pipe and having fill out problems that were solved, at leat partially, by some one advising getting the mold hotter. Babbit bearings , soldering tin, and many such things were common then, so many people had knowledge of casting.

[recycledelectrons]

Have you looked into the old-style bullet swaging systems? You can swage 5 bullets a whole lot easier than you can cast 5 bullets.

The idea is to get a certain size chunk of soft (pure) lead, and place it in the bottom part of the set. Then place the top part on top, and start pounding with a rock or hammer.



Casting is better for large batches of lead bullets, but swaging is far better for very small batches.

I cast cores, then swage those into bullets. There are no issues with not filling out a mold when you swage the results. I'm not sure how that would work by a camp fire, with very little lead.

Andy

[Dean D.]

I'd like to add a couple things here.

I think shooters back in the frontier days were faced with the same problems we face today, availability and especially cost of store bought ammunition for their weapons. Buying lead, powder and primers and casting/loading your own would still be cheaper than buying factory ammo if you could even find it. That is not even considering custom bore sizes from handmade barrels.

I have an Ideal #4 tong tool for my .45 Long Colt that I still use to cast boolits with. The tool was originally owned by a turn of the century (1900 not 2000 lol ) trapper. He had wrapped the handles with multiple layers of denim and secured the cloth with rawhide lacing. You can cast with this tool bare handed quite comfortably. I do wear gloves for safety sake in case of splatters. Just an idea for those of you with old type molds that get a bit hot ;)

[ghh3rd]

I remember reading how when cowboys came to a river they used to swim to the bottom and collect all of the egg sinkers that fishermen lost -- that's where they got most of their lead for casting as they travelled [smilie=1:

[cajun shooter]

The toy soldiers in the Mel Gibson movie would have probably been made of pewter if period correct. These people were from Europe where pewter was used for many things including cups, plates, and toys.