Load by weight or mold?

[spurrit]

Guys, I've wondered, but not done any actual testing to decide, so I think I'll cheat by looking at you old guys' papers:

If, like me, you're using a Keith 454424 mold, do you adjust your charge by bullet weight, or just use the existing loads for that mold? A lot of people claim they get a 250 gr. bullet from that mold. Some claim 260, some, 265, etc.. Mine generally drop about 268. Hence the question.

Whaddya say, grey hairs? :coffeecom

[Shiloh]

My LEE 230 TLTC mold drops a boolit weighing 238 gr. I use the lower charges for the 230 gr. listed weight.

Shiloh

[jack19512]

Deleted

[Bret4207]

Boolit weight. Doing otherwise is foolish. Get up into the larger calibers and a soft lead boolit can be 30+ gr heavier than a hard one. Not a good idea.

[cajun shooter]

A lot of variables to your question. What load are you using? What gun are they fired in? What is the purpose of the load?If you are using a modern steel gun and the middle of the road load then I don't worry when a bullet weighs over a given weight. If I'm loading the max load then I would go by weight. Back when I first started to load in the late 60's early 70's the loading manuals all showed cup for pressure on loads. For those that don't remember it is for copper units pressure. Those loads were much heavier than today's printed material. I remember one load that my loading buddy and I found that was some 5 grains above other manuals for a 357 load using 4756. Well being greenhorns we rushed right out and bought all the stuff to load these bad a-- loads. I can only tell you that I'm happy that I was using a mdl 28 for shooting at that time. If your bullets are much over 15 grains of printed weight then I would use a different load

[44man]

I have never cared what the boolit weighed because each new boolit gets an accuracy workup anyway. I stay with the same alloy all the time too. Very few boolits shoot at the max load anyway, I only have one and it is for the .475 where it groups best at the sticky case stage. I just backed down on the powder charge and accept the small loss in accuracy.
What counts is how a boolit reacts in your gun. Two different boolits of the same weight can act different with one raising pressure while the other can use even more powder.
But to start loading a new boolit from scratch, it is always best to use the boolit weight. I don't worry about a few grains but some molds are out of the ball park.

[fredj338]

The guys are right of course, you work your load up. I think what you are asking is, if the bullet wt. varies from vatch to batch, do you adjust powder charge? Once I settle on an alloy or even approx. alloy, the wt. will vary no more than 5gr up or down. So at tAt point, I don't change powder charge. The stamped mold wt. & bullet wt. can have little in common.

[spurrit]

I guess what I'm asking is, which do I worry about more: case capacity taken up by the seated bullet, or projectile weight?
Also, when do I start worrying about bullets being oversized? With my Keith loads, I just size everything .454, which is slightly oversized, but I want as complete a burn as possible.

BTW, I'm shooting old model Vaqueros, and the load is for long range. (well over 100 yards; I was planning to go to the Elmer Keith memorial shoot this weekend, but will have to wait for next year)

[Larry Gibson]

Didn't vote because the correct answer isn't there. All loads should be worked up to. All manuals recommend this procedure as have all articles and books written on reloading. To arbitrarily pick a load is not only foolish but also can be dangerous.

It's one thing to ask for us to recommend a favorite load but it should always be worked up to or in the case of squib loads; worked down to.

Larry Gibson

[Maven]

What Larry said! And you need other choices in your poll. E.g., what if you use the same mold/CB for cartridges of different capacity in rifles with different strength actions?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Do your self a favor and check the boolit weight your mold drops, [with the alloy you are using!] . I also like to check the diameter to determine if I need to size or not, for the barrel I'm shooting it in .

I don't get anal about it, just a cursory check and then I'll weigh a few for my own piece of mind, especially if I change alloy.

[mroliver77]

Boolits (and bullets) of different styles can weigh the same but seat much differently in a cartridge giving a substantial difference on powder capacity. For instance an LBT WFN leaves much more room in a loaded case than a boolit of the Keith pedigree. less room takes less powder to make same pressure. This can raise pressures way faster than a few grains of weight. When flirting with max loads either situation can quickly push pressures into the danger zone.
I agree you need more choices in your poll.
Jay

[spurrit]

Sorry, next time, I'll have a poll on what's wrong with the poll.

In this thread, however, let's discuss the question at hand. When you start criticising the question, rather than offering an answer, you come off as an XXXXXXX that doesn't want to admit he doesn't know.

[cbrick]

hhmmm, I was going to post a reply until I read post #13.

To make this short . . . ALL of the people that posted here were correct. Read in particular posts #6 and #9.

Rick

[runfiverun]

i weigh ten of them for an average and work with what i got.
if it weighs 265 then i just start with a load thats close to that weight boolit and or bearing surface.
make a load for it [try a few different ones and refine] and go shoot it.

[runfiverun]

spurrit you got your answer.... from some of the more knowledgeable [older] haha. guy's on here.
if brett, larry,maven, or especially when it comes to revolvers 44 man says so .it's so.

[spurrit]

hhmmm, I was going to post a reply until I read post #13.

To make this short . . . ALL of the XXXXXX that posted here were correct. Read in particular posts #6 and #9.

Rick

I'm happy with the answers, for the most part; it's just the people that have nothing to add, who simply MUST complain about something that bothers me. If you have something to add, great! That's what this is all about. If you don't, DON'T!

BTW, your post, quoted above, is just fine with me; you agree with, and support their point of view. No different than disagreeing and providing counterpoints, IMO.

[jack19512]

When you start criticising the question, rather than offering an answer, you come off as an XXXXXXXX that doesn't want to admit he doesn't know.






It could be me, maybe I'm one of those, but I really take offense to your post and don't think your response was warranted at all. Had I had any idea you would act like this I wouldn't have posted to your thread. I will remedy this however.

[Bret4207]

Sorry, next time, I'll have a poll on what's wrong with the poll.

In this thread, however, let's discuss the question at hand. When you start criticising the question, rather than offering an answer, you come off as an XXXXXXX that doesn't want to admit he doesn't know.

Nice. You're missing the point, you gave limited choices and all they're saying is the complete answer goes beyond those choices. No need to resort to profanity, it just makes things worse.

[spurrit]

I never limited responses to only answering the poll.

[HeavyMetal]

Before this gets to "deep" My thought is if you don't kow the payload weight how can you decide on a start load?

Lymans 358156 is a prime example. Read "Skeeter" Skelton for years, He claimed this mold made 150 grain boolits. When one was aqquired I find it casts 165 to 175 depending on alloy and the mold vintage!

At last I realized "Skeeter's" mold must have been an HP which, after I had Buckshot convert one for me, was exactly what came out of it, 150 grains!

I always cast, check payload weight and then work up a load from a selected start load from the manuals.

Never blown up a gun, never broke a gun ( from a load anyway) and never tried to make a magnum out of a caliber that wasn't.

Being safe is good.

[Rick N Bama]

My LEE 230 TLTC mold drops a boolit weighing 238 gr. I use the lower charges for the 230 gr. listed weight.

Shiloh

Mine does as well, by all means, use the boolit weight.

Rick

[oso]

Many of my molds have been modified by lapping to improve the boolit's fit so my weights are not standard. Even for my unmodified molds I have confirmed HeavyMeatl's experience. For some reason I like to know what my boolits weigh when working up a load. I also find it is worthwhile for me to pay attention to COL. Generally try to remember what powder is in the hopper as well. Of course I try to select an appropriate brass recepticle and have a working battery in the Chronograph and a freshly patched target. Or what was the question anyway? C'mon gents.

[Frank]

mroliver77 wrote
Boolits (and bullets) of different styles can weigh the same but seat much differently in a cartridge giving a substantial difference on powder capacity. For instance an LBT WFN leaves much more room in a loaded case than a boolit of the Keith pedigree. less room takes less powder to make same pressure. This can raise pressures way faster than a few grains of weight. When flirting with max loads either situation can quickly push pressures into the danger zone.
I agree you need more choices in your poll.
Jay
__________________
See Dick drink. See Dick drunk. See Dick drive. See Dick die. Don't be a Dick!

Bingo. :coffeecom Seating depth, bullet weight, bullet diameter - all are factors that affect pressure. Actually, a misleading if not dangerous question because someone may choose "weight" and blow themselves up because they didn't consider what mroliver77 mentioned.

spurrit wrote:
I'm happy with the answers, for the most part; it's just the people that have nothing to add, who simply MUST complain about something that bothers me. If you have something to add, great! That's what this is all about. If you don't, DON'T!


mroliver77 added what was needed to be added. :-?

[spurrit]

mroliver77 wrote

Bingo. :coffeecom Seating depth, bullet weight, bullet diameter - all are factors that affect pressure. Actually, a misleading if not dangerous question because someone may choose "weight" and blow themselves up because they didn't consider what mroliver77 mentioned.

spurrit wrote:

mroliver77 added what was needed to be added. :-?

I shoulda worded my OP differently; my point was that the heavier weight at the same length will produce higher pressures, but I have to wonder at just how much it affects it. When we change bullet weights, it's kind of a given that pressures will go up because we'll typically end up with more bullet inside the case, giving expanding gasses less room to expand.

[Frank]

When we change bullet weights, it's kind of a given that pressures will go up because we'll typically end up with more bullet inside the case, giving expanding gasses less room to expand.



But you can have boolits of the same weight that require entirely different charges. Maybe you can have a bulllet of LESS WEIGHT that requires a lesser charge. :confused: I know, this is tough stuff, huh? :violin:

[spurrit]

Typically, a lighter weight bullet requires a higher charge.

[jhrosier]

I went with by the mould, but I will qualify that. I don't load anywhere near the maximum load for any caliber so a lot-to-lot difference of 5% in boolit weight wouldn't raise any safety concerns for me.

I was browsing the Lyman 43rd ed. last night and noticed that they used to group the boolits by weight, using the same loading data for a number of different moulds in some calibers. It seems to me that differences in the profiles of the boolits would create more variances in chamber pressure than slight differences in weight, but then I've not done the same sort of testing that they did when working up the data.

I believe that working up to a load is the best method, regardless of weight, hardness, or profile.

I don't hunt with cast, but if I did, I would go to a heavier boolit and/or larger caliber to get more power, rather than pushing velocities into the danger zone.

Jack

[spurrit]

I don't hunt with cast, but if I did, I would go to a heavier boolit and/or larger caliber to get more power, rather than pushing velocities into the danger zone.

Jack

For the most part, that's just what I do. I've played with the "Ruger only" loads, but stayed 3-4 gr. below what Linebaugh tells us is maximum. I just had to see the elephant, I guess. Now that I've seen it, I just load for accuracy, but also for the most velocity I can get, while maintaining controllability for follow-up shots.

[Shiloh]

The guys are right of course, you work your load up. I think what you are asking is, if the bullet wt. varies from vatch to batch, do you adjust powder charge? Once I settle on an alloy or even approx. alloy, the wt. will vary no more than 5gr up or down. So at tAt point, I don't change powder charge. The stamped mold wt. & bullet wt. can have little in common.

Miy boolit weights can and do vary. My loads begin near the suggested starting weight and some start below. I have one load that runs perfectly at .3 BELOW starting charge weight. That is with an AA #5 clone powder. This has also been the case with cannister powders.

Shiloh

[Shiloh]

I guess what I'm asking is, which do I worry about more: case capacity taken up by the seated bullet, or projectile weight?
Also, when do I start worrying about bullets being oversized? With my Keith loads, I just size everything .454, which is slightly oversized, but I want as complete a burn as possible.

BTW, I'm shooting old model Vaqueros, and the load is for long range. (well over 100 yards; I was planning to go to the Elmer Keith memorial shoot this weekend, but will have to wait for next year)


I knew exactly what you were asking from the first post.

I have two LEE molds that require seating slightly below published seating depths for proper functioning. Because I start at or slightly below published powder charge weights for a particular weight boolit, I am erring on the safe side
There is a reason that given powder charge per boolit weight are listed. These figures aren't just made up.

Start at or near suggested starting weights. Watch for pressure signs, and develop loads accordingly. Boolit sizing diameter is also part of the equation.

Shiloh

[Bret4207]

In the end the gun determines what is most accurate. It's our part to determine what is safe in our view as far as pressure goes, as far as recoil goes and what the acceptable accuracy and feeding parameters are. I think knowing the true weight helps in deciding where start with the load. All the other variables- case capacity, OAL, distance into the leade we seat... all that plays a part and we have to try and remember that with every load we work up.

I don;t know about anyone else here, but I've forgotten a few of those things from time to time and had a surprise or 3. The basics remain no matter how long we've been at this.

[Jaybird62]

+1 on load workup on standard velocity loads for every cartridge and for every gun.

[jdgabbard]

I go by the weight. It just, as you might not have data for a particular mold. Seems to have been working out nicely for me.

[lead_her_fly]

I load to the bullet weight. I try to cast so I get the correct weight from the mold, i.e., via alloy. If my alloy is right, the advertised weight should be attainable.

Most of my molds are H&G's. I haven't had any trouble getting very close to those weights using straight wheel weights. I get even closer when I add just a "smidgen" of Linotype.

FWIW

[tactikel]

Bullet weight; all new molds/alloys get weighted (after gas check). Start conservative looking for leading, accuracy, and work up your loads. Pressure dosent know the stamping on you mold, it only knows what it is pressing against!:)

[NHlever]

Perhaps the OP is asking us to consider these two variables out of all the ones that can affect a load which one would we give most importance. Well, that is still a mixed question as both items need to be looked at. I just read an article in Handloader on that bullet, and the author got 100 fps difference in velocity out of two bullets from different molds made at different times but with the same number using the same alloy. It turns out the crimp groove was in different places in the two molds. Another example is the 300 grain Speer jacketed bullet. In the new manual they show almost identical velocities for that bullet compared to the 250 /260 grain bullets by using a crimp groove that leaves more space in the case. In both those examples it sure seems that bullet design means more than weight. Given those examples and my experience, I would give the design more weight ( pun intended) than the weight of the boolit. Elmer Keith did that when he designed his famous bullets, made the nose longer, and left more space in the case. If one looks at the Lyman .357 mag cast bullet data he will see that maximum charges vary more by design than weight. So, for what it's worth I'll chose that variable as being the most important, but always be conscious of the weight of my cast boolits V.S. the published weight when working up my loads.

[wallenba]

If my bullets are just a few grains off the mold weight, which they usually are since I like hard bullets, I load for the mold. Looking at it the way Isaac Newton would, in a perspective of physics, a 2 grain variance of a 240 grain bullet would be about the weight of a 1 inch square post-it note. The propellant will probably not notice. Shorting the propellant though......bad.