Newb question - Have I screwed myself?

[003402]

OK all, I think I made a massive castboolit newb blunder. It deals with lube and how I misinterpreted its purpose throughout the process (which had led to lead fouling in my .45 ACP).

Short background - after research, cast my first set of bullets (lee mold, water dropped, sized to .451 (which my glock would take)). Used alox for first batch, a water based lube for sizing on the 2nd batch. What I failed to do and understand the value of, was to lube POST sizing. So I have about 400 rounds with no lube on them. D'oh!

So, the questions are:

1. can anything be done to salvage these without taking the bullets apart?
2. If I have to take them apart, can I reuse the bullets?

I have learned my lesson (and wished I had found this forum earlier). C'est la vie.

Thanks
Robert

[Down South]

I would lube the nose with LLA on a dozen rounds or so and try them. I think nose lubing may be all you need to prevent leading.

[snaggdit]

OK, you are loading for a 45. We are talking 800-1000fps. Water dropping is making hard boolits. Not necesarily bad, but at those speeds air cooled is more than adequite. Harder tends to not seal to the barrel as well, adding to leading due to gas blowby. Second, if you have any stick on WW, cast a few boolits and slug your barrel. Do a search if this is a new term to you. This will tell you how large your bore is. You want to be .001-.002 OVER this size with your boolits. If you are right at or under you will get leading as well, especially with hard boolits. Lastly, if you used LLA and then sized, some of the LLA is pushed into the lube grooves. It isn't as good as adding a second coat after sizing but should be OK for a 45 at those relatively slower speeds.

Where to go from here: Cast a few new boolits air cooled and see what size they drop at. If around .452, lube with LLA and load a dozen rounds as cast and see if the leading issue goes away. If so, pound out the other rounds and re-use the primed brass, problem solved.

Can't stress the slugging your barrel enough, though. This will definitively tell you what you have to work with. Everything else until you do this is just guesswork.

Keep at it and welcome!

[003402]

thanks. I will do some research on the slugging (generally familiar). Problem I had with .452 as cast was they would not chamber in my Glock. Only after a resizing to .451 was I able to get them to chamber. Even after that, I had quite a few jam during firing. I know there are far too many variables in play at the same time, so I am going to have to do some steps by process of elimination.

So far, here are some of the things I will try:

1. on one batch, try LLA on the nose and fire them, check for leading
2. cast a new batch and air cool. Check size and fit in chamber. lube and load.
3. Research barrel slugging and check barrel size.

Any other suggestions? I am going to use the lewis lead remover (have tried solvents but no luck yet) to get the lead cleaned out.

[snaggdit]

Kroil and chore boy are a favorite for removing leading as well. On stubborn leading, get the barrel real wet with kroil and let sit overnight then try scrubbing out. Might have to repeat a few times.

[Echo]

Consider using R-P brass for your reloads. R-P brass is thinner than others, so you can use a larger diameter boolit. You may have to modify your reloading dies to ensure a tight grip on the boolit.

[Marlin Hunter]

OK all, I think I made a massive castboolit newb blunder. It deals with lube and how I misinterpreted its purpose throughout the process (which had led to lead fouling in my .45 ACP).

Short background - after research, cast my first set of bullets (lee mold, water dropped, sized to .451 (which my glock would take)). Used alox for first batch, a water based lube for sizing on the 2nd batch. What I failed to do and understand the value of, was to lube POST sizing. So I have about 400 rounds with no lube on them. D'oh!

So, the questions are:

1. can anything be done to salvage these without taking the bullets apart?
2. If I have to take them apart, can I reuse the bullets?

I have learned my lesson (and wished I had found this forum earlier). C'est la vie.

Thanks
Robert


Suggestion:

Load another batch with the same specs (powder, weight, primer, and bullet height). But put a heavy dose of alox on the bullets for this batch. Mark your old non-lubed cartridges with a black felt pen, so you can tell which one has lube and which one does not. When you load the magazine, alternate one lubed bullet and one non lubed. The last bullet, or first one shot should be a lubed bullet. There should be enough lube left in the bore from the previous shot to prevent leading from the non lubed bullet.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Marlin Hunters suggestion is what I would do , this should be fine , if your boolits are sized as they should be to .001-.002 over bore size, at any rate, when I use Alox I lube, size , lube again , load boolit. This will work for you , IMHO[smilie=1:

[sleeper1428]

OK all, I think I made a massive castboolit newb blunder. It deals with lube and how I misinterpreted its purpose throughout the process (which had led to lead fouling in my .45 ACP).

Short background - after research, cast my first set of bullets (lee mold, water dropped, sized to .451 (which my glock would take)). Used alox for first batch, a water based lube for sizing on the 2nd batch. What I failed to do and understand the value of, was to lube POST sizing. So I have about 400 rounds with no lube on them. D'oh!

So, the questions are:

1. can anything be done to salvage these without taking the bullets apart?
2. If I have to take them apart, can I reuse the bullets?

I have learned my lesson (and wished I had found this forum earlier). C'est la vie.

Thanks


Robert

If I understand you correctly, your worry is that you will be shooting boolits that have been sized after having been lubed. If this is correct then I'd say that you have nothing to worry about considering the fact that when lubing and sizing standard lube grooved boolits - not Lee tumble lube boolits - in most common lube-sizers in use today, each boolit has lube forced into the grooves but then the sizing action of the sizing die essentially removes virtually any excess lube from the outside of the boolit, leaving them in exactly the condition you have described - lube grooves filled but no lube on the rest of the boolit. One can, of course, use an oversize sizing die that is large enough to do no sizing whatsoever but simply lubes the boolit. Doing so will likely deposit a thin layer of lube on the outer surface of the booit, much as will tumble lubing, depending on the amount of pressure being applied to the lube and the temperature of the lube.

Now, if you're using a Lee TL mould, I would think that you'd have to be sizing a LOT off each boolit in order to completely wipe out all the TL grooves that should be filled with lube after the tumble lubing with Alox that you described. So again, if there is still lube remaining in the TL grooves after you've sized your boolits, I wouldn't worry. Just load them up and enjoy!

sleeper1428

[243winxb]

Used alox for first batch, a water based lube for sizing on the 2nd batch. What is the water based lube? What batch leaded the bore? You are talking 2 different lot numbers of cast bullets?

[wallenba]

You got it well covered with the advice I read here. Try finding a Lewis lead removing kit too. Brinnells has it for sure, don't know about Midway. Check out the videos at ammosmith.com for anything on the subject, he's on youtube as well.

[wallenba]

Oh yeah, if you are using micro-band lee molds, even sizing them won't remove all the lube, plus, consider the fact that seating the bullet in the cases wipes a certain amount up the case.

[twoeagleak]

Could try one of these bullet pullers in link below. Fits reloaders with standard reloading die threads. Hornady also makes a similar bullet puller, and maybe rcbs also.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/Pages/collet_puller.htm

good luck,
happy shooting.............

[243winxb]

post #7 by Marlin Hunter has the fix for the problem. IMO

[Gohon]

If it were me, I would just consider it a lesson learned, pull the bullets, throw them back into the pot and cast them again without water quenching. I might even consider cutting the mix with a little lead to soften them up a tad more. You already know they are leading very bad so smearing lube on the nose or staggering the rounds in my opinion is not the answer. Most leading is caused by bad bore fit or to hard of a cast preventing bump up to seal the bore. My bet is lube is in second place as to cause of your leading with to hard of a cast bullet being in first place. You can spend the time pulling and recasting or spend the time scrubbing lead from the barrel, but either way you're going to spend some extra time correcting the mistake.

Snaggdit is right about the the chore boy.......... pull about a 3 foot strand from a copper chore boy, wrap it around a bore brush and as he suggested use Kroil or any bore cleaning solvent on hand. About 5-6 passes with this and your lead is gone. Trick is to make sure it is a tight fit (wrap more chore boy if needed) when pushing through the barrel. Works just as good if not better than anything you can buy.

[243winxb]

Glocks and Polygonal rifling
The manufacturer Glock advises against using lead bullets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling True or old wisetail???

[Cloudpeak]

Good advice so far. One thing not mentioned is, if you're shooting lead out of the factory Glock barrel, check for leading often. I'm sure you know Glock doesn't recommend shooting lead.

As mentioned, the .001 to .002" larger diameter than your bore bullets will cut down on leading (though I'm not sure how a factory Glock barrel handles lead.)

I use "ChoreBoy" dry. My 45 cal 200gr SWC are wheel weights and air cooled and I get very little leading. ChoreBoy is copper. Some scrubber pads are copper covered steel. You don't want to use those (magnet test.)

If you've shot copper jacketed bullets through the barrel, this can contribute to leading. All remnants of copper should be removed (IMO) before shooting cast.

In the future, you can save some mess by lubing your bullets with a very light coat of Hornady "One Shot" case lube for sizing (with the Lee push through) and then tumble lube. A little One Shot goes a long way. One can lasted me over 25,000 rounds and I use it on my cases before sizing, as well (even with carbide dies. Progressive press seems to run a bit smoother.)

[fredj338]

You can certainly relube after sizing w/ the Alox. I think you'll find hard bullet sized to .451" will not be very accurate in a stock Glock bbl. & watch for leading. Lead bullets tend to "smear" in the poly rifling & this can raise pressures. Not as big a problem w/ the 45 but still watch for it. ME, I would by a LW bbl. for $100 & call it good.

[Sprue]

2. If I have to take them apart, can I reuse the bullets?

Should you decide to pull your boolits (and I don't think that you will) get yourself a Kinetic style puller. Thats unless you want to remelt them and start over.

I too like the suggestion of loading them alternately with known lubed ones. I would suggest however first, that you load up and shoot several good loads before even thinking about trying the un-lubed ones utilizing the alternating method. You need to varify that the lubed ones don't lead before going any further.

Water droping is the most convenient and easiest way/method for me.... I prefer it.

Myself, my leading problems didn't totally disappear until I got away from alox YMMV.

As for your Glock, you can decide for yourself on shooting cast. The caveat actually being, whether or not the lawyer talk is fact or fiction.

Good Luck & enjoy the experimenting !

[003402]

What is the water based lube? What batch leaded the bore? You are talking 2 different lot numbers of cast bullets?

These were all from the same batch of cast bullets, but I used LLA for the first round (which didn't lead) and water-based, which did lead. Basically, I am paying the price for cutting some corners. Lesson-learned.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I really like the idea of making a new batch, with LLA, and alternatiing the bullets. The first recipe worked fine, so the concept should work nicely (and I like the idea of not pulling bullets!).

[003402]

You can certainly relube after sizing w/ the Alox. I think you'll find hard bullet sized to .451" will not be very accurate in a stock Glock bbl. & watch for leading. Lead bullets tend to "smear" in the poly rifling & this can raise pressures. Not as big a problem w/ the 45 but still watch for it. ME, I would by a LW bbl. for $100 & call it good.

Fred,

not familiar with a LW barrel. Any pointers? Nevermind---figured it out. Lone Wolf.

Thanks

[bingo]

Like cloudspeak said MAKE SURE the copper scrubbie isnt just copper coated. Kryoil is good too.

bingo

[003402]

I just picked up a copper choreboy tonight. Will check with magnet. What about stainless steel? I use a stainless choreboy during my home brew process.

[Bad Water Bill]

Copper is a softer metal than your steel barrel and will not scratch yours. Stainless is a mixture of chrome and steel so is much harder and will scour out your barrel.

[003402]

roger that. Also, the copper choreboy is actually copper clad steel. Wouldn't have ever noticed the difference if it weren't for the smart people on this board. Thanks for all the help.

[003402]

All:

Range report.

1. Cleaned the barrel with a choreboy of the copper variety.
2. Took the easy way out and lubed the nose of 50 completed bullets.
3. alternated the bullets in the mag with unlubed bullets and fired about 80 total rounds.
4. Checked regularly, no leading

I will lube the rest of the batch similarly until gone. Once done, will reload for the new lone wolf barrel that I have waiting for when these are done.

Thanks again for all the help.

Robert