filler???

[chevyiron420]

i am thinking of useing some fiber fill, dacron, pillow stuffing or what ever its called in a new load i want to work up in my m95 steyr 8x56r. i have heard alot of good reports on it, but in the past i heard alot of warnings against useing it because it could cause chamber bulges or rings. what do you guys think?? has this been disproved??:castmine:

[armyrat1970]

i am thinking of useing some fiber fill, dacron, pillow stuffing or what ever its called in a new load i want to work up in my m95 steyr 8x56r. i have heard alot of good reports on it, but in the past i heard alot of warnings against useing it because it could cause chamber bulges or rings. what do you guys think?? has this been disproved??:castmine:

I have heard reports of it also, and some bad. Haven't tried dacron myself. Maybe it is a matter of how much filler you place into the case. Have also read about dryer lint. This is free from your dryer and very light. This is what I will be using to work up some loads for the 8x57 with my cast boolits. But you don't want to over stuff your case with any kind of filler. Many people use different types of filler. Even cream of wheat. I have read some bad reports about it though. Maybe because it's heavier and will clog the case neck.

[cajun shooter]

The COW is used to fill cases when loading BP . When using smokeless then you use the synthetic materials found in fabric shops. If you are new to reloading I would steer clear until I had a better feel.

[The Double D]

Here's where the problem lies. Some people can't just seem to understand there is difference between and wad and a filler.

Wads only take up a small part of case capacity and leave an air space inthe case.

Fillers fill all the air space.

If you use a small tuft of the material with smokeless powder to hold the powder up to the flash hole and leave an air space in the case, it is not a filler, it is a wad and there is a possibility that you can ring a chamber.

If you compress as much of the material as you can get in the case, it is a filler and case ringing is not an issue.

[Jim]

I've never heard anyone put as good as DD did. Well said, Sir.

[chevyiron420]

Here's where the problem lies. Some people can't just seem to understand there is difference between and wad and a filler.

Wads only take up a small part of case capacity and leave an air space inthe case.

Fillers fill all the air space.

If you use a small tuft of the material with smokeless powder to hold the powder up to the flash hole and leave an air space in the case, it is not a filler, it is a wad and there is a possibility that you can ring a chamber.

If you compress as much of the material as you can get in the case, it is a filler and case ringing is not an issue.

i understand what your saying perfectly. so the guys useing a 1\2 grain tuft over there powder are wrong and taking a big chance with there guns. this is why i ask questions, i dont want to tear up any of my guns.:shock:

[Char-Gar]

Ah! The filler wars again!

[GrizzLeeBear]

Use the search function. This has been discussed MANY times.

[mroliver77]

Careful as you can put your eye out using it!
Jay

[chevyiron420]

Use the search function. This has been discussed MANY times.

im SORRY i bothered you. MANY topics here have been discussed before.

[Heavy lead]

This is a touchy subject here evidently. I had the same situation last summer when I was developing a cast load for my 416 Rigby. Now without doubting anyone on the filler subject after doing some tests with and without I elected a load with 5744 without the filler. This may not be the best for accuracy and ballistic uniformity, but I did find for the purposes I needed it for the load I settled on for my purposes was just fine. I'm getting about a 2" group at 100 yards with the RCBS 350 gas check cast. Could I improve with filler? I'm sure, but I sleep better not using it simply because the residue left in my barrel with the filler was bothersome to me.
Keep in mind I am not an expert with cast in rifles, in fact other that the 444, 45-70 which never required any filler with any loads I have ever used with them my only other rifle I've shot cast is the .416.

[Larry Gibson]

im SORRY i bothered you. MANY topics here have been discussed before.

It's not really a bother. Depending on the case volume and the load density 1/2 gr of dacron filler (most often recommended) indeed does fill the space between powder and bullet base. However those of us who use fillers extensively, especially those who use an recommend dacron, also specifically recommend larger weights of dacron filler if it is neceddary to fill the space between powder and bullet base. In the 8x56R you mention the 1/2 gr recommendation would be sufficient with most medium and slow burning powders that give loading densities of 60 to 85%. For powders that give less loading density then a 3'4 or perhaps 1 gr dacron filler could be used.

If you do the search as recommended you will find several posts of mine and others where we thoroughlt explain what we use and how we use it. I use dacrom almost without exception as the filler I use.

Larry Gibson

[The Double D]

The problem of the search function is that here on this board any one subject has been discussed so often, that a search results in an information over load.

[chevyiron420]

It's not really a bother. Depending on the case volume and the load density 1/2 gr of dacron filler (most often recommended) indeed does fill the space between powder and bullet base. However those of us who use fillers extensively, especially those who use an recommend dacron, also specifically recommend larger weights of dacron filler if it is neceddary to fill the space between powder and bullet base. In the 8x56R you mention the 1/2 gr recommendation would be sufficient with most medium and slow burning powders that give loading densities of 60 to 85%. For powders that give less loading density then a 3'4 or perhaps 1 gr dacron filler could be used.

If you do the search as recommended you will find several posts of mine and others where we thoroughlt explain what we use and how we use it. I use dacrom almost without exception as the filler I use.

Larry Gibson

thanks larry, im going to pick up some dacron asap and also do some more searches. i have loaded for almost 30 tears but have never used a filler or a wad. i was warned in some books to never do it and i have been scared of ringing a barrel\chamber. its confusing because some say its OK and some say its not. lets say the 8x56r with a 205 cast lee bullet with 13 grains of unique. would it be safe with dacron? how much? then im thinking of a new load with the same boolit with about 22-25 grains of 4198. would it be safe with dacron? how much? the if i understand DoubleD, the case needs to be full. its confusing.:castmine:

[Cap'n Morgan]

The problem of the search function is that here on this board any one subject has been discussed so often, that a search results in an information over load.

Most forums has poor search capabilities:(
Much better to just Google for whatever you want to searh for (e.g. use of filler), and include 'cast boolits' in the search line.

If you choose 'advanced search' in Google, you can limit the search to the Cast Boolits forum only by adding http://castboolits.gunloads.com/' in the 'Search within a site or domain' You can also refine the search further by including/excluding specific words and phrases.

[chevyiron420]

OK guys i may have found some. my wife had it left over from quilt making. its called mountain mist. its 100% polyester and uncompressed it seems to be about 1\4 inch thick. it says soft,medium loft batting. is this the right stuff?:-?

[HORNET]

That would be the stuff (:groner:)... It's available as sheets in a couple of different thicknesses as well as "loose". The sheets are easier to get consistant amounts of than eyeballing tufts pulled off the mass of loose. Its probably best used in loads involving a substantial amount of unfilled case volume utilizing the slower powders. It may or may not make adifference in the load performance, depending on what your specific load is. Remember to back off a little and work back up.

[softpoint]

I'm not the authority here on this subject, having only used fillers in one 45/70 load, but my older cast bullet manuals all recomend using fillers, especially with loads of fast burning pistol powders, or any that left a lot of air space in the cartridge. :coffee:

[BeeMan]

Here are a couple threads out of many available for review:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=54383&highlight=dacron+filler

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=40738&highlight=dacron+filler

Look in particular for comments by BruceB and Larry Gibson, for a perspective on how to successfully use high loft low density materials like Dacron aka fiberfill. Maven and others speak to successful use of cereal and granular plastic materials. Both groups discuss appropriate types of powder and load densities for their techniques. As far as powder migration, see post 20 on the second thread for a test demonstrating powder position stability with Dacron.

I’ve personally played with cereal and Dacron in a limited number of load combinations. Dacron improved accuracy in exactly half of the appropriate load workups I tried. Powdered bran was not a measurable improvement in a small sample where this type of filler was appropriate, but my experience was small.

The cumulative voice of experience on this board is that either filler technique will work when used appropriately. In either case a prudent approach is warranted, but that is true of any attempt to tackle this hobby. Do your homework and you will be fine, whether you opt for fillers or select the best powder for appropriate case fill at the desired velocity.

BeeMan

[chevyiron420]

That would be the stuff (:groner:)... It's available as sheets in a couple of different thicknesses as well as "loose". The sheets are easier to get consistant amounts of than eyeballing tufts pulled off the mass of loose. Its probably best used in loads involving a substantial amount of unfilled case volume utilizing the slower powders. It may or may not make adifference in the load performance, depending on what your specific load is. Remember to back off a little and work back up.

thanks hornet..... hey i have been away from the forum for a wile and im a bit out of touch, so whats with the:groner:

[chevyiron420]

Here are a couple threads out of many available for review:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=54383&highlight=dacron+filler

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=40738&highlight=dacron+filler

Look in particular for comments by BruceB and Larry Gibson, for a perspective on how to successfully use high loft low density materials like Dacron aka fiberfill. Maven and others speak to successful use of cereal and granular plastic materials. Both groups discuss appropriate types of powder and load densities for their techniques. As far as powder migration, see post 20 on the second thread for a test demonstrating powder position stability with Dacron.

I’ve personally played with cereal and Dacron in a limited number of load combinations. Dacron improved accuracy in exactly half of the appropriate load workups I tried. Powdered bran was not a measurable improvement in a small sample where this type of filler was appropriate, but my experience was small.

The cumulative voice of experience on this board is that either filler technique will work when used appropriately. In either case a prudent approach is warranted, but that is true of any attempt to tackle this hobby. Do your homework and you will be fine, whether you opt for fillers or select the best powder for appropriate case fill at the desired velocity.

BeeMan
Thanks BeeMan! thats some good stuff.

[klcarroll]

Well, .......the only time I ever used fillers was about twenty years ago when I was loading some subsonic .308 loads for a suppressed bolt action I had built up.

At that time, the "general wisdom" called for a 190 - 220 grain boattail propelled by 9 to 10 grains of Unique. The accepted formual also called for enough dacron fluff to lightly fill the case, and hold the Unique down in the vicinity of the primer.

I shot many thousands of those rounds with no problems; ......But today, the load would be called into question by any number of experts!

......Which brings me to my opinion on "Using The Search Function" versus "Asking An Old Question Again": ......If all knowledge was fixed, and no new information ever came to light, then we all should spend all our time searching the archives: ......But if we accept the fact that we are all constantly learning; .......Then "Asking The Question Again" makes a lot more sense!

Kent

[Larry Gibson]

chevyiron420

Assuming you've read my posts in the threads mentioned. I do not recommend the use f a dacron or any other filler with Unique loads in your 8x56R with the 200 gr bullet. Not because of a "ringing problem but because it is unecessary for consistant ignition. Unique without a filler does just fine with the heavier bullets at low to moderate cast bullet velocities.

Larry Gibson

[HORNET]

Chevyiron420,
The :groner: is because the bags that I've had of polyester were sold as STUFFing for pillows and stuffed kids toys. Bad pun, couldn't resist.

[jh45gun]

FWIW the old books say use filler the newer ones do not When I got back into reloading I Called the different powder companies and reloading component companies and they all advised against it. Sure a lot of folks use fillers successfully. I do not use them so I will never have to worry about it. I use 2400 for all my cast bullet loads and my accuracy is more than acceptable with every load/caliber I have tried. Since C.E Harris says you do not need filler with 2400 and it is not position sensitive or at least not as much as most powders that is why I switched and it is all I use for cast loads from the 30/30 to my 45/70. I am not going to get in the filler arguement if you want to use it fine, there are other options though like powder selection.

[The Double D]

FWIW the old books say use filler the newer ones do not When I got back into reloading I Called the different powder companies and reloading component companies and they all advised against it. Sure a lot of folks use fillers successfully. I do not use them so I will never have to worry about it. I use 2400 for all my cast bullet loads and my accuracy is more than acceptable with every load/caliber I have tried. Since C.E Harris says you do not need filler with 2400 and it is not position sensitive or at least not as much as most powders that is why I switched and it is all I use for cast loads from the 30/30 to my 45/70. I am not going to get in the filler arguement if you want to use it fine, there are other options though like powder selection.

GThe reason t he powder companies will not recmmend fillers is they have no pressure gun data on fillers...they also understand that people have a problem of understanding the difference btween the use of a wad and and the use filler.

[chevyiron420]

chevyiron420

Assuming you've read my posts in the threads mentioned. I do not recommend the use f a dacron or any other filler with Unique loads in your 8x56R with the 200 gr bullet. Not because of a "ringing problem but because it is unecessary for consistant ignition. Unique without a filler does just fine with the heavier bullets at low to moderate cast bullet velocities.

Larry Gibson

thanks larry, i have read the threads that were linked, also some more i got on searches. i dont want to use a filler with my unique load or any other load useing pistol\shotgun powder. the more of your post's i read on this the more right i feel about that belief. i am pondering on a new load in the vecinity of 1900fps useing 4198 or 3031 or 4895 with the lee boolit.
here is another example, i have a danish rollingblock. i use 45\70 cases and 405 grain boolits from a lee mold, lapped to drop .463. i have slugged the barrel and made a chamber cast. i used to shoot this gun with ammo made by another reloader and it shot neerly hole in hole. my first loads used imr4198 and i got hang fires, or boolits lodged in the barrel with a clump of scorched powder. then i swapped out to a unique load and have no problems, but the best i can do with it is about 4 inches at 100 yards. i know it can do better so i was thinking about re trying the 4198 with a filler, or maybe 3031.

[armyrat1970]

I feel your best bet would be to try the load you are wanting to use with and without a filler of your choice and see which one works best for you. You may not need a filler at all. We are always experimenting to find the best load for our given weapons and using or not using a filler is part of it just like different powder, different charge weights, OAL, bullet weight, case length. It's all part of the process and learning curve. What works well for one may not actually work the same for the next. Even given the same weapon. It is a basic we can all go by and use to make our own adjustments and opinions by our own experiences to get the best quality ammo we handload for the given weapon we are shooting. I have gotten a lot of good info from Larry and respect his experience. Mainly I won't use dacron because I have not been able to find any locally. Even had the wife try to find some with no luck. Don't know why but if the wife can't find it, I don't know where to look. (have found some on the net but it is a little pricey and I ain't gonna' pay for it). Thought about tearing apart one of my pillows but Larry advised against it as he didn't have to spend to much time in the ER after doing it himself.:lol: Read something else about dryer lint and it makes sense to me and it's free because you always have dryer lint available. It's all a learning process. JMHO.

[Larry Gibson]

GThe reason t he powder companies will not recmmend fillers is they have no pressure gun data on fillers...they also understand that people have a problem of understanding the difference btween the use of a wad and and the use filler.

Double D

I do have pressure tests on the use of dacron and COW. I ran a test using both in the 45-70 with 3031 and old and new 5744. I posted it in on one of the forums so a search should find it. I also have completed lots of pressure tests of various cartridges with dacron fillers. With in the parmaters that I use a filler they work as expected and very consistently with no signs of pressure spikes. Pressure is always higher with the filler when a given load is used. Velocity is most often higher also. The real benifit to using the dacron filler as I use it is the much better and more uniform ignition. Loads using fillers should be worked up just like all loads should be. There are some combinations of powder, cast bullets and fillers that do not work well but within the parameters I recommend the filler is almost always benificial and worth doing.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

chevyiron420

.....i dont want to use a filler with my unique load or any other load useing pistol\shotgun powder. the more of your post's i read on this the more right i feel about that belief.

As stated before I've found a filler is not needed with Unique.

i am pondering on a new load in the vecinity of 1900fps useing 4198 or 3031 or 4895 with the lee boolit.

With the 200 gr bullet at 1900 fps you probably won't need a filler with 4198 as the pressure will get high enough fast enough for efficient ignition. However the 4895 will probably be the best choice for that bullet at 1900 fps. I would use a filler as the loading density will be well below 80-85%. in that cartridge. I regularly push 200+ gr cast bullets at 1900 fps or so out of similar case capcity cases with 4895 using a 1/2 or 3/4 gr dacron filler. Start at 28 gr of 4895 and work up. You might also want to look at a bit slower powder for the 1900+ fps loads. RL19, AA4350 and H4831SC have proven to be good performers for me in similar cases. Even with them if loading density is below 85% I use the 1/2 gr dacron filler.

....here is another example, i have a danish rollingblock. i use 45\70 cases and 405 grain boolits from a lee mold, lapped to drop .463. i have slugged the barrel and made a chamber cast. i used to shoot this gun with ammo made by another reloader and it shot neerly hole in hole. my first loads used imr4198 and i got hang fires, or boolits lodged in the barrel with a clump of scorched powder. then i swapped out to a unique load and have no problems, but the best i can do with it is about 4 inches at 100 yards. i know it can do better so i was thinking about re trying the 4198 with a filler, or maybe 3031.

4198 under a 400 gr cast bullet in the 45-70 and similar cartridges like the Danish is best served with a dacron filler when 400 gr or lighter bullets are used. With heavier bullets the filler may not be necessary IF the load generates sufficient pressure for consistent ignition. 3031 is a very good powder for such cases using 400 gr cast bullets. I have found that it also benifits from a dacron filler of 1 - 1 1/4 gr. Just work your loads up using the dacron is all. My old eyes aren't so great with open military iron sights anymore but with my 45-70 loads using 3031 and 4895 with dacron under the 457124 I can regularly hold 2 moa or so (5 shots at 100 yards) with both my H&R LBH carbine and OM.


Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

armyrat1970

Your wife should be able to find "polyester fill" or "batting" (sold by the yard) in fabric stores. I believe most WalMarts also carry the "fill" in their sewing/fabric sections. Worse case scenario regarding the pillow though; what is important? the risk of death and/or serious injury or good cast bullet loads:-) I'd suggest you pick an old pillow or at least your pillow. If we don't hear from you again we'll assume you made the wrong choice;-)

Larry Gibson

[The Double D]

Double D

I do have pressure tests on the use of dacron and COW. I ran a test using both in the 45-70 with 3031 and old and new 5744. I posted it in on one of the forums so a search should find it. I also have completed lots of pressure tests of various cartridges with dacron fillers. With in the parmaters that I use a filler they work as expected and very consistently with no signs of pressure spikes. Pressure is always higher with the filler when a given load is used. Velocity is most often higher also. The real benifit to using the dacron filler as I use it is the much better and more uniform ignition. Loads using fillers should be worked up just like all loads should be. There are some combinations of powder, cast bullets and fillers that do not work well but within the parameters I recommend the filler is almost always benificial and worth doing.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

You may have pressure test results and that is good. But powder and bullet companies do not publish load data with wads and fillers. I'll bet they have test how ever. You also will not see some of the powder combinations discussed here in the load manuals either.

I am hoping to do some pressure testing of my own soon, and it's nice to see your report so I have some idea what to expect.

[craigf]

Much has been said about chamber "ringing" and fillers though I still do not know what it means, but, I have had an experience with ringing of sorts. I was using Lee 200 grain cast bullets over 11 grains of Unique with 0.5 grain of polyester filler in my M14. After firing a few shots, one of the extracted cases had a loose ring of what looked like melted plastic (no doubt from the polyester) at the neck/shoulder junction.

[armyrat1970]

armyrat1970

Your wife should be able to find "polyester fill" or "batting" (sold by the yard) in fabric stores. I believe most WalMarts also carry the "fill" in their sewing/fabric sections. Worse case scenario regarding the pillow though; what is important? the risk of death and/or serious injury or good cast bullet loads:-) I'd suggest you pick an old pillow or at least your pillow. If we don't hear from you again we'll assume you made the wrong choice;-)

Larry Gibson

Larry your probably right. I first asked her if any of our pillows contained dacron because I need some for my handloads. She was not going to alloy me to cut open any pillows so I asked her to go to WallyWorld and a local fabric store to find some for me. Now dacron goes by many different names and if she asked for it, (dacron) maybe the person she asked was really not aware of what they sold. I'll try again myself after getting a list of all the names it goes by. I ain't gonna' cut up my pillow for it that I have been sleeping on for years. It would take me months to get used to a new one. I have found it here though:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/dacron.html
:drinks:

[The Double D]

That isn't the dacron you want.

You want poly fill or batting

http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog.jsp?CATID=cat3604&PRODID=prd5506.

I prefer Kapok becasue it's more eco friendly, okay truth, I have a large quatity of it. :)

[TAWILDCATT]

I dont know whether its good or bad.but I use the 13 gr of RED DOT load in my 06 and no filler.and in all the military cal.I just dont like the idea of adding something in.I have read that some people have had ringed barrels.I figgure I have enuf to watch with out adding to it and I can attest that the primer will burn in much more than a case.it will burn your finger at 4/5 inches.at least I wont lose my finger nail.
[smilie=b:

[TRguy]

I use oatmeal as filler in my cases. Works like a charm for me.

[Larry Gibson]

Armyrat1970

She should look for "pollyester fill". Below is a bag of the "fill" and to the left of the bag is the "batting". It is going to be where the cloth bolts are in a fabric store. I prefer the batting as it is very easy to cut it into square of the size you want.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I dont know whether its good or bad.but I use the 13 gr of RED DOT load in my 06 and no filler.and in all the military cal.I just dont like the idea of adding something in.I have read that some people have had ringed barrels.I figgure I have enuf to watch with out adding to it and I can attest that the primer will burn in much more than a case.it will burn your finger at 4/5 inches.at least I wont lose my finger nail.
[smilie=b:

Concur, Red Dot is a "fast" burning powder that should not require any wad or filler with an appropriate cast bullet.

Larry Gibson

[klcarroll]

Back in "The Old Days", I used the dacron fluff that was sold as an aquarium filter media.

Kent

[Larry Gibson]

Much has been said about chamber "ringing" and fillers though I still do not know what it means, but, I have had an experience with ringing of sorts. I was using Lee 200 grain cast bullets over 11 grains of Unique with 0.5 grain of polyester filler in my M14. After firing a few shots, one of the extracted cases had a loose ring of what looked like melted plastic (no doubt from the polyester) at the neck/shoulder junction.

That is not a case of "ringing". Ringing is when a ring is created in the actual chamber or throat of the barrel. In your case it is simply another eason why a filler is inappropriate and not very workable with such "fast" powders as Unique. I'd bet that 11 gr load of Unique under that 200 gr cast bullet would have done much better without the dacron filler. Dacron fillers are very appropriate to use but only with the slowest of the "pistol" type powders (4759. 5744, 4227, 4198, etc.) and the medium and slow burning powders when case loading density is less than 80-85%. A dacron filler used within that parameter gives excellent results. Used out side of that parameter and the dacron filler generally does not work well. I've said this many times before.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

You may have pressure test results and that is good. But powder and bullet companies do not publish load data with wads and fillers. I'll bet they have test how ever. You also will not see some of the powder combinations discussed here in the load manuals either.

I am hoping to do some pressure testing of my own soon, and it's nice to see your report so I have some idea what to expect.

Lyman used to publish such loads concerning the use of "wads" in center fire cartridges. When you get around to pressure testing and discuss issues with the powder, bullet and ammuntion companies you will find they are very "law suit" concious and careful at what they say. You will also find certain things are done by them because of "reported" instances. The latest warnings by Alliant on Blue Dot use for example.

Consider this; what about shotgun shells? All shotgun shells are loaded with fiber or plastic "fillers" (even though the misnomer "wad" is used) are they not? They are even loaded with such fillers with slugs. So what is the difference between say a factory .410 slug loaded with 4198 and a "filler" between the powder and slug or a 45-70 loaded with 4198 and a filler between the powder and cast bullet? The answer is there isn't any difference if each is loaded correctly. Therein lies the rub. Many fail to follow advise and still load improperly with fillers in CF cartridges with cast bullets. Also note that in shotgun shells fast powders are loaded with fillers under smaller shot charges. This works in shotgun shelss but many times does not work well in bottle neck CF cartridges. It does work well in straight walled cases though. In this thread we've seen the reported examples of the improper use of fillers and wads. Myself and others continuously advise on the proper use of such fillers. Simply because some (may even be many) do not listen to what we say and use fillers inappropriately does not mean that all such use is bad and to be avoided. It simply means a failure to follow proven loading procedure leads to problems. They can try to reinvent the wheel but they will and do fail because the wheel is already invented and proven. Would be nice if they would only listen.

I do not claim to have "invented" the use of dacron as a filler. It was in use a long time before I first read about it on a wrapper of Javelina bullet lube. Since then (45+ years ago) I, along with many others, have made all of the mistakes everyone is still continuing to make. Maybe some just like to make mistakes, shoot poorly or run the risk of damage to their firearm, I don't know, but it would be nice if some would listen to those of us who use dacron fillers very successfully and have done so for many years with thousands of loads. Guess I'll quit ranting.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

Have to agree with Larry on this all the way. Have been using dacron fillers on some loads now for probably well over 30 years. No ringed bbls. Do not use them for loads with Bullseye, Red Dot (any of the Dots for that matter), and Unique, as they are fast enough without. Depending on the load and how much case capacity is involved for 2400, 4759, 57344, 4198, Varget and Rl-7, which is what I mainly shoot under cast, I probably will use dac for a percentage of these. For the latter, it fills up the space between powder and blt base. To me this does three things, gives you an additional check against double charges (maybe), takes up dead space between the pdr and blt base, and IF the base of the Blt is into the powder space and below the neck inside, seems to help w/accracury. This is particularly true of long blts and short necked cases. It depends on if the slower pwdrs take up half or more of the capacity of the case with the slower powders. Good info on this for some powders in the 2nd. edtion of the Lee book. Bought a bag of Dac some 20 plus years ago and haven't used half of it yet. Befor that I used toilet paper. Didn't care that much for the paper however as occaisionaly there would be little bits of burning paper in front of the bench. Not good in dry weather and irritated a few shooters on the line who didn't really appreciate cast shooters in the first place. We is a minority don't ya know at most ranges!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[chevyiron420]

Have to agree with Larry on this all the way. Have been using dacron fillers on some loads now for probably well over 30 years. No ringed bbls. Do not use them for loads with Bullseye, Red Dot (any of the Dots for that matter), and Unique, as they are fast enough without. Depending on the load and how much case capacity is involved for 2400, 4759, 57344, 4198, Varget and Rl-7, which is what I mainly shoot under cast, I probably will use dac for a percentage of these. For the latter, it fills up the space between powder and blt base. To me this does three things, gives you an additional check against double charges (maybe), takes up dead space between the pdr and blt base, and IF the base of the Blt is into the powder space and below the neck inside, seems to help w/accracury. This is particularly true of long blts and short necked cases. It depends on if the slower pwdrs take up half or more of the capacity of the case with the slower powders. Good info on this for some powders in the 2nd. edtion of the Lee book. Bought a bag of Dac some 20 plus years ago and haven't used half of it yet. Befor that I used toilet paper. Didn't care that much for the paper however as occaisionaly there would be little bits of burning paper in front of the bench. Not good in dry weather and irritated a few shooters on the line who didn't really appreciate cast shooters in the first place. We is a minority don't ya know at most ranges!
1Shirt!:coffeecom
i know what you mean about the minority thing. i used to shoot in an indoor range where i used to live and even though they had exelent air handlers i was told i couldnt shoot my cast boolits anymore, unless it was black powder night, because someone complained about the smell of my 50\50 lube!!!

[chevyiron420]

Lyman used to publish such loads concerning the use of "wads" in center fire cartridges. When you get around to pressure testing and discuss issues with the powder, bullet and ammuntion companies you will find they are very "law suit" concious and careful at what they say. You will also find certain things are done by them because of "reported" instances. The latest warnings by Alliant on Blue Dot use for example.

Consider this; what about shotgun shells? All shotgun shells are loaded with fiber or plastic "fillers" (even though the misnomer "wad" is used) are they not? They are even loaded with such fillers with slugs. So what is the difference between say a factory .410 slug loaded with 4198 and a "filler" between the powder and slug or a 45-70 loaded with 4198 and a filler between the powder and cast bullet? The answer is there isn't any difference if each is loaded correctly. Therein lies the rub. Many fail to follow advise and still load improperly with fillers in CF cartridges with cast bullets. Also note that in shotgun shells fast powders are loaded with fillers under smaller shot charges. This works in shotgun shelss but many times does not work well in bottle neck CF cartridges. It does work well in straight walled cases though. In this thread we've seen the reported examples of the improper use of fillers and wads. Myself and others continuously advise on the proper use of such fillers. Simply because some (may even be many) do not listen to what we say and use fillers inappropriately does not mean that all such use is bad and to be avoided. It simply means a failure to follow proven loading procedure leads to problems. They can try to reinvent the wheel but they will and do fail because the wheel is already invented and proven. Would be nice if they would only listen.

I do not claim to have "invented" the use of dacron as a filler. It was in use a long time before I first read about it on a wrapper of Javelina bullet lube. Since then (45+ years ago) I, along with many others, have made all of the mistakes everyone is still continuing to make. Maybe some just like to make mistakes, shoot poorly or run the risk of damage to their firearm, I don't know, but it would be nice if some would listen to those of us who use dacron fillers very successfully and have done so for many years with thousands of loads. Guess I'll quit ranting.

Larry Gibson
larry, i dont see this as a rant at all, and the amount of conflicting info out there tells me that alot of people are doing it wrong. thats why i brought it up, not to re hash something as some thought, but to try to get up to date info. i even see suposed pro's with loading vidios apparently doing it wrong. if your info and others as well saves one shooter from injury, or saves someones gun, well that will be great! i need to do some real work with this to understand more though and i aint had time. i need to get a feel for how much filler to use for however much airspace is left in the case. i guess that confusion comes from the fact that this fluff is mostly air to start with, and how much it should be compressed is unknown to me. i still read reports of people pushing larger amounts of filler in there than seems to be reported here?? probably another mistake!

[armyrat1970]

larry, i dont see this as a rant at all, and the amount of conflicting info out there tells me that alot of people are doing it wrong. thats why i brought it up, not to re hash something as some thought, but to try to get up to date info. i even see suposed pro's with loading vidios apparently doing it wrong. if your info and others as well saves one shooter from injury, or saves someones gun, well that will be great! i need to do some real work with this to understand more though and i aint had time. i need to get a feel for how much filler to use for however much airspace is left in the case. i guess that confusion comes from the fact that this fluff is mostly air to start with, and how much it should be compressed is unknown to me. i still read reports of people pushing larger amounts of filler in there than seems to be reported here?? probably another mistake!

Yes. Pushing to much filler into the case is a mistake as it may give a suppressed charge. May not be a problem if you are not loading to max to begin with. It is a process you have to work with. I will heed the advice of those here with the past experience of using fillers. Then. I will try some of the same charges without a filler and compare. May not need one at all.

[Larry Gibson]

chevyiron420

The dacron is 'fluffy and expands out to fill the case after being pushed in through the neck. If you note in my advise I use 1/2. 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and sometimes 1 1/2 gr tufts of dacron. The size used depends on the volume of airspace to be filled. I use "just enough" and do not overly compress the dacron. My tests indicate that there is a "too much" point where ignition and pressure ES and SDs increase. Just enough to fill the air space or a slight compression from seating the bullet is the right amount. My tests also show there is no need to weight each dacron tuft as "eye balling" the amount is close enough. In the 30-06 with a 311291 cast bullet over 4895 powder there was no difference in internal balistics or accuracy with carefully weighed .5 gr tufts when compared to the same load with tufts weighing from .3 gr up throu .8 gr. I never really saw a difference until the 1 1/4 gr tufts were used with that load in the '06.

armyrat1970

Testing with and without is a good thing to do. However, remember that the dacron filler increases ignition efficiency and also pressure along with velocity. Many work up a max for accuracy without the filler and then test with the filler. They get less accuracy with the filler and state the filler doesn't work. What they fail to understand is the max accuracy load is probably on the edge of the RPM threshold. When the dacron filler is used the ignition is more efficient, there is a higher pressure and thus a higher velocity. This higher velocity puts their load over the RPM threshold and the inaccuracy is a result of that, not the use of the filler. Had they reduced the load and worked back up to the same velocity as the load without the filler then they probably would have seen enhanced accuracy. They also would have been using less powder. This is an example of how sometimes we mistakenly percieve a cause for inaccuracy to be something it isn't. Only thorough testing under reasonably controlled conditions can provide the correct answers.

Some use a dacron filler may only be to decrease "powder position sensitivity". With some of the faster powders general accuracy may be the same without the dacron filler. This is fine if most of one's shooting is from a relatively level position. However, in larger cases when shooting at angles, up or down, the position of the powder in the case can cause a very large ES to occur or an increase/decrease in velocity to cause a severe zero problem. Test your loads also by raising the muzzle to position the powder against the primer and gently lowering to horizontal to shoot. Shoot, at 100 yards, for group, point of impact from the point of aim and also chronograph for velocity. Then do the same by lowering the muzzle to position the powder in the front of the case and test the same way. You will most likely see a large difference between muzzle up, muzzle down and horizontal loading in group size, point of impact from the point of aim and the velocity average along with the ES and SD. The use of the dacron filler keeps the powder positioned consistently in the rear of the case and negates the adverse affect of "powder position sensitivity".

Larry Gibson

[chevyiron420]

can someone give me a start load recomendation for 3031 with darcon filler with a 405 cast boolit in my danish roller. sort of 45-70. :cbpour:

[armyrat1970]

chevyiron420

The dacron is 'fluffy and expands out to fill the case after being pushed in through the neck. If you note in my advise I use 1/2. 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and sometimes 1 1/2 gr tufts of dacron. The size used depends on the volume of airspace to be filled. I use "just enough" and do not overly compress the dacron. My tests indicate that there is a "too much" point where ignition and pressure ES and SDs increase. Just enough to fill the air space or a slight compression from seating the bullet is the right amount. My tests also show there is no need to weight each dacron tuft as "eye balling" the amount is close enough. In the 30-06 with a 311291 cast bullet over 4895 powder there was no difference in internal balistics or accuracy with carefully weighed .5 gr tufts when compared to the same load with tufts weighing from .3 gr up throu .8 gr. I never really saw a difference until the 1 1/4 gr tufts were used with that load in the '06.

armyrat1970

Testing with and without is a good thing to do. However, remember that the dacron filler increases ignition efficiency and also pressure along with velocity. Many work up a max for accuracy without the filler and then test with the filler. They get less accuracy with the filler and state the filler doesn't work. What they fail to understand is the max accuracy load is probably on the edge of the RPM threshold. When the dacron filler is used the ignition is more efficient, there is a higher pressure and thus a higher velocity. This higher velocity puts their load over the RPM threshold and the inaccuracy is a result of that, not the use of the filler. Had they reduced the load and worked back up to the same velocity as the load without the filler then they probably would have seen enhanced accuracy. They also would have been using less powder. This is an example of how sometimes we mistakenly percieve a cause for inaccuracy to be something it isn't. Only thorough testing under reasonably controlled conditions can provide the correct answers.

Some use a dacron filler may only be to decrease "powder position sensitivity". With some of the faster powders general accuracy may be the same without the dacron filler. This is fine if most of one's shooting is from a relatively level position. However, in larger cases when shooting at angles, up or down, the position of the powder in the case can cause a very large ES to occur or an increase/decrease in velocity to cause a severe zero problem. Test your loads also by raising the muzzle to position the powder against the primer and gently lowering to horizontal to shoot. Shoot, at 100 yards, for group, point of impact from the point of aim and also chronograph for velocity. Then do the same by lowering the muzzle to position the powder in the front of the case and test the same way. You will most likely see a large difference between muzzle up, muzzle down and horizontal loading in group size, point of impact from the point of aim and the velocity average along with the ES and SD. The use of the dacron filler keeps the powder positioned consistently in the rear of the case and negates the adverse affect of "powder position sensitivity".

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry. As always, a lot of great info. Hope to start working on these loads within the next few weeks. Had to wait on my L.E.Wilson case trimmer that would trim primed cases and get good square case mouths and a Sinclair chamber length gage. Gonna start with primed Turk brass and both the Turk and Ecuadorian powders to compare under my 175gr cast RN. I'll give you some feedback when I actually put some through the chrony. I'll make another search for the dacron also before I begin.
Been waiting since the first of the year for an outdoor range that is only about ten miles from my door to reopen. Both pistol and 100 and 200 yrd rifle. They have been closed since Katrina and seem to be dragging their feet to reopen. I guess I will have to visit another close by indoor range for the testing though I don't like indoors and will have to buy a special light bar for my chrony to use there. Lighting stinks on an indoor range with my bad eyes. Oh well.

[Larry Gibson]

can someone give me a start load recomendation for 3031 with darcon filler with a 405 cast boolit in my danish roller. sort of 45-70. :cbpour:

The older Lyman manual lists a starting load of 30 gr 3031 with a 457124 using a 1/2 gr dacron "wad". I've used that as a starting load with a 3/4 gr dacron filler over 3031 with a 457124 cast soft at 398 gr. I worked up to a velocity of 1350 fps in 1 gr increments of 3031 for use in my TDs. I still use the same load when ever I come upon some 3031 powder.

Larry Gibson

[chevyiron420]

thanks larry, i dug up 13 winchester cases, 45\70. i dont like winchester cases for this gun, but with the price of brass ill give em a try. i wrapped the head of the cases with 1\4 wide scotch tape to make them center in the BIG chamber and loaded 10 grains of red dot and corn meal. i got em all fire formed and split one. i partial size whith my 45\70 die with a 5\8 spacer on the shell holder and flare the case with a lee universal die. i dont use a "M" die. this gives me just enough neck tension to hold my .4625 boolits. i need to lap the lee mold just a hair more to abot .4635 but im going to work with it for now. i used 30 grains of 3031 and .8 grain of fiberfill. im also hand lubing with 50-50 and roll crimping. i got three done and had to close up shop and come home for honeydo's. ill finish up tomorrow hopefully and then start on some more 38S&W. i cant wait to get to the range!:cbpour:

[PAT303]

I'm no expert but every Lee Enfield 303 I've shot cast in shot 200-220grn boolits over 28-30 grns 2206(4895) powder with dacron filler accurately.It is my standard high power load in those rifles that I use to gauge all the others. Pat

[chevyiron420]

thanks pat, i may try that in my #5 one day. my #4T has to rough of a barrel for cast but shoots 174 jacket rn pretty good.