A Silly Ass Idea

[JohnH]

It struck me today that most of my cast boolit efforts are centered around reduced loads, the problem being trying to get a big case to act like a little case. Several times I've read of someone making cases by lathe turning brass stock. The 22 Cooper comes to mind immediately in this regard, but I've read of it being done for other cases also.

"Well", says I to meself, "Why coudn't we have cases turned to match the external dimensions of our brass, but with less internal capacity?" Say a reduction of 10 or even 20%, 30% if someone wanted, even 50% for that matter.

Thoughts? Input?

[StarMetal]

JohnH,

I thought about that many many many years ago. I for one don't shoot really reduced loads. That's why you never see me respond to cast rifle loads using pistol/shotgun powders. Simply for the fact I've never used them much. I never shot cast because I wanted to save money, I shot it because I like making my own bullets and I believe cast bullets are easier on your barrel. Most my loads are middle power range for cast.

I'm sure if someone could cut those reduced capacity cases out economically that there would be buyers for them. We also talked about filling the cases up to the bottom of the necks with some hard alloy like zinc, then drilling it out an appropiate size to make your own reduced capacity case.

Joe

[45 2.1]

This is done for some of the old cavernous BP rounds. I woiuld imagine Buckshot has done it for his Martini-Henry.

[castalott]

Hi John!

Thats not such a silly idea. It would have some good points. I have read of a guy who turned out a case and then drilled it to have 100 % loading density for the powder he wanted to use.....

also....

In the book "The Art of Bullet Casting" on page 153 is an article where Jim Carmichel prepares a 223 case and inserts it in a 308 case. The idea being that the 308 now has 'about' the powder capacity of a 223 but still shoots 30 cal cast bullets. It would be worth your time to read it.....

I would like to know about it if you try it....

Dale

[KCSO]

See last years Home Shop Machinest, I will try and get the issue.

There was a good article on doing exactly this. The author turned cases for using as little as 5 grains of powder. His groups were impressive and he showed some tips for production of such cases. This is somewhat on the order of the old everlasting case that was made for so many different black powder cartridges. I have made cases in the past, but never had time to do the tooling for production work on a certian cartridge.

[Dale53]

Rocky Mountain Cartridge makes turned brass cases. They also make reduced volume cases for various calibers. You might check them out.

Dale53

[Leftoverdj]

Be a lot easier to use the Carmichael approach that Castalott mentioned and sleeve an existing case.

[Lloyd Smale]

It was allways my understanding that when fired brass expanded and grabbed ths sides of the chambers and this intern decreased back thrust on the bolt. I know from past experience that if you leave oil on a case you will run into pressure signs faster the with a dry case. Now if you made cases out of thick brass i dont believe it would expand to grab the walls of the chamber and if it did you could never resize it unless you made the necks a normal thickness and neck sized. another problem may be blow back if the case wasnt precisisely made to fit the chamber when you fired you may get hot gasses traveling along the brass and comming out who knows where on an old gun. Just like when you use to light of a load and you see the brass blackened from blow back. Just some thoughts

[David R]

I like the idear. You would HAVE to make the neck the same size as a standard case, if not the boolit would not fit. I was thinking, to resize a 358 or 35 whalen, walen? A 38 cal carbide peestol sizer would work. If I had a lathe, I would try it. It would take a long time to make even 10 cartridges. Sure would be easy on a CNC lathe. You cold make a 'straight walled 30 cal'.

I don't think its silly at all.

David

[Char-Gar]

Paul Mathews did the same thing, but using a smaller modified case place in side of a larger case thereby reducing the internal capacity to that of t he smaller case.

Upon the first firing the interior case formed to the parent case forming a tight bond and stayed in place.

This was all written up and published, but I can't remember where.

[KevMT]

It was allways my understanding that when fired brass expanded and grabbed ths sides of the chambers and this intern decreased back thrust on the bolt. I know from past experience that if you leave oil on a case you will run into pressure signs faster the with a dry case. Now if you made cases out of thick brass i dont believe it would expand to grab the walls of the chamber and if it did you could never resize it unless you made the necks a normal thickness and neck sized. another problem may be blow back if the case wasnt precisisely made to fit the chamber when you fired you may get hot gasses traveling along the brass and comming out who knows where on an old gun. Just like when you use to light of a load and you see the brass blackened from blow back. Just some thoughts

Since the loads will be of low to moderate pressure could you just machine a grove for an O-ring into the case to seal the breech?

[Larry Gibson]

Hi John!

Thats not such a silly idea. It would have some good points. I have read of a guy who turned out a case and then drilled it to have 100 % loading density for the powder he wanted to use.....

also....

In the book "The Art of Bullet Casting" on page 153 is an article where Jim Carmichel prepares a 223 case and inserts it in a 308 case. The idea being that the 308 now has 'about' the powder capacity of a 223 but still shoots 30 cal cast bullets. It would be worth your time to read it.....

I would like to know about it if you try it....

Dale

I read his original article in one of the gun magazines quite a few years ago. I prepared 20 cases and gave them a try with 411291. I had pretty erratic results until I worked up a pretty stout load to get the .223 cases to fire form inside the case. They worked ok but I never got any better accuracy and it resulted in only a miniscule reduction with fast powders to get the same velocity. They actually seemed to work a little better with medium powders like 3031, 4895 and 4064. About the time I thought they may be useful I discovered the use of Dacron. Making the cases and keeping them segregated just didn't seem worth it then. I have recently thought of giving it another try, it is on the list of "things to do".

Larry Gibson

[fourarmed]

One of the last articles Ross Seyfried did for Rifle/Handloader mentioned such cases for the .577-.450 MH. Don't recall the supplier, but it's in the article he did about the rifles found in Nepal (or was it Tibet?)

The Jim Carmichael article about lining large cases with smaller ones is in the book of cast bullet articles from Rifle/HL.

[castalott]

Hi Larry!
Thanks for the information. It looked interesting but I have a lack of time right now. Like you, I got the results I needed another way. Just for my knowledge, how long did the modified cases last? It seemed like a drastic size up & then down...

As far a case capacity is concerned, the same few grains of a fast powder has worked great in 30-06. 308, and 30-30. That would indicate to me that maybe case size doesn't matter a lot with "fast' powders. The bullet in all these loads was a 130 grain plain base.

Dale

[Frank46]

John, someone I don't remember who (darned CRS again) was making 30-30 cases out of 375 win brass. This was done for a few reasons. One being that the heavier case would require less powder, heavier cases would last longer and thicker case necks would take up some of the windage in the chamber. I did read about machined cases being used in the 45/70. The object was to use them with lesser powder charges and they would last longer, sort of a new "everlasting" case. If you wre to get really good dimensions of your chamber and machine cases to fit it you should be able to seat your bullet almost by hand. The neck portion I where I think you would probably run into problems getting consistent diameters but you could use a mandrel to hold the case for turning like the bench rest shooters do. Frank

[Four Fingers of Death]

I remember these a few years ago. Fire a 22Hornet in a 22/250, 30M1 in the 30Cal fullsize rounds, etc. The guy who sells guns and gear out of his basement here in town has 12Ga chamber inserts that are abou 6" long and fire 410s. they arrapently work ok.

What rimmed 30Cal pistol or small rifle rounds could you fire in a 308 or 3006 steel chamber insert? 30M1 is the only one I can think of. 32/20 in a 303Brit might be ok.

[44 WCF]

This thread sure woke up old memories. Years ago, a machinist friend owned a 30-30 contender. He had an insert of some type that allowed shooting it seems 32-20 using a .308 bullet. Think he had to deal with getting the fired 32-20 case out of the insert. At the time I wasn't smart or old enough to pay attention. He experimented with making reduced cases, not much luck I remember, but He hunted deer and elk with that damn Contender, coyotes everything, shooting both cast and jacketed. all with a TC 2 or 4 power scope. Living close to town he needed reduced muzzle blast to ventilate skunks etc, there the need for the 32-20. I had never seen a contender, plus cast bullets, pointed cast bullets. Oh my, I can remember thinking, then he bought a 32-20 barrel, I didn't think he could dispatch a skunk with even if he could hit it. He was so far ahead of the rest of us about really enjoying shooting. He shot every weekend, I couldnt afford ammo at the time, reloading, well I couldn't be bothered. Now I own 3 Contender barrels and 8 Marlln Cowboys that have never seen a jacketed bullet. My favorite skunk gun is a little Marlin CL in that old 32-20. My reloading room and casting shack look like surplus sporting goods stores. Got wheelweights?????

[Molly]

I think the easy way to reduce case capacity would be to mix up a bit of hardware store epoxy and squirt a half cc (or however much you want) in a case, and let the case roll - as on a rock polishing machine - while the epoxy cures. You might have to clean out the flashhole afterwards, but that's easy enough.

Alternatively, check out the hardwar's supply of vinyl tubing: You might be able to insert a length in an expanded neck, and use that as a cheap way to reduce capacity.

Hope this helps.
Molly

[Bman]

DavidR, I use a .38/.357 pistol die to neck size my .35 Rem cartridges.