Cast boolit ignorance

[Willbird]

I tellya, it never ceases to amaze me.

The latest one I ran into was a guy who claims ALL cast bullet loads lead the gun, and he feels that a plain based bullet in 357 magnum cannot be pushed much past 800 fps without leading.

He called me a liar for pointing out that proper cast bullet loads do NOT lead the gun, or to be more precise I explained they may deposit a small amount, but that if things are working right if we fire 5 rounds or 5,000 rounds we will have the same possibly tiny amount of lead in the barrel. A stable condition exists where lead is not building up.

He felt the 5,000 round figure was completely absurd.

Oddly enough air cooled WW in 357 or 44 magnum with felix lube do not build up lead for me, and honestly I have only fired 300 to 400 rounds at a crack but the barrel really did not need cleaning at all, the action and cylinder face get a bit cruddy.

Nobody ever seems to remember that 22 lr use almost pure lead bullets, and except in rare cases the barrel NEVER really needs cleaned in a 22, the action yes, the barrel no.

Bill

[ghh3rd]

I know that's right about 22's -- I must have fired a million :-) 22 rounds over the last 40 years, and never leaded a barrel.

I'm still experimenting with cast boolits, and hope to find the perfect alloy, size, etc. for my .38 and .40 to achieve unlimited lead free shooting. I think that the trick will be to make good notes, and repeat the "formula" once a good result is achieved.

Randy

[Trey45]

Using a Lyman 429421 boolit lubrisized with lars 2500, sized to .431, over 8.5gr unique I have virtually NO leading, at all! Matter of fact, my bore in my Virginian Dragoon (not a cap and ball dragoon obviously) has never looked so good! Brite and shiney bore with crisp rifling. This is after shooting 100 of them and not even running a patch down the barrel. Some people just love to argue, or are stubborn, or worse yet, both! As long as one of you knows the truth, thats whats important.

[badgeredd]

I tellya, it never ceases to amaze me.

The latest one I ran into was a guy who claims ALL cast bullet loads lead the gun, and he feels that a plain based bullet in 357 magnum cannot be pushed much past 800 fps without leading.

He called me a liar for pointing out that proper cast bullet loads do NOT lead the gun, or to be more precise I explained they may deposit a small amount, but that if things are working right if we fire 5 rounds or 5,000 rounds we will have the same possibly tiny amount of lead in the barrel. A stable condition exists where lead is not building up.

He felt the 5,000 round figure was completely absurd.

Oddly enough air cooled WW in 357 or 44 magnum with felix lube do not build up lead for me, and honestly I have only fired 300 to 400 rounds at a crack but the barrel really did not need cleaning at all, the action and cylinder face get a bit cruddy.

Nobody ever seems to remember that 22 lr use almost pure lead bullets, and except in rare cases the barrel NEVER really needs cleaned in a 22, the action yes, the barrel no.

Bill

Bill,

Is the individual from 'Pelier?

I hear you about some people not believing. Problem is in my younger days, I bought some HARD cast boolits and they leaded my gun up. Of course I was told that was just the way it was with cast boolits. Funny thing is, I ran into this sight and found out that I didn't have a clue about cast boolit shooting and minor things like fit and alloy. [smilie=1:

A new day has dawned and I am running 357 Mag loads at 1400 fps with a plain based boolit. I MUST be doing something wrong cause I an not getting leading. My 3 different 45LC single action revolvers aren't leaded nor is the 375 Super Mag or the 44 Mag. The stars must be right, huh? :Fire:

Hopefully you acquaintance is smart enough to learn something new. If not...oh well!:-D Loard I hope I don't know him!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edd

[RP]

Boolit size to barrel size is the main factor in barrel leading I have been told and what I have found for myself. When I first started casting I always fired my cast boolit as slow as I could to avoid leading and only used jacketed bullets for fast or hot loads, After finding this site and talking to alot of guys in chat along with reading post I now have speeded my cast up alot and dont plan on buying anymore jacketed bullets.

[dragonrider]

I know of a fella at the range I go to that insists that cast boolits will damage your gun, he can't be convinced otherwise. but he continues to use those FLGC's which are harder than lead. go figure.

[Willbird]

No this guy is somebody I met online. It is funny that half the people who disagreed with him used the word "boolit" when they did so ;-).

I have not had much luck with store bought cast bullets other than 4.0 of bullseye in 45 acp.

Bill

[BarryinIN]

I ran into one of these guys the other day at the range. We were both bellyaching about the cost and availability of anything ammo-related. I said these were two reasons of many which nudged me over the edge to start casting my own.

This is when he started to educate me about cast bullets.

Now, being new to casting, I generally welcome info about it. But this guy....who had already told me he only owned two guns, had never shot one and was shooting the other for the first time that day...started off by telling me casting my own wouldn't help me with my rifles since you can't shoot cast bullets in rifles.

Knowing the answer, I asked why that would be.
Of course, it was because of the "leeding".

Sigh. I'm new to this, but I can see I'm going to have to get used to this sort of thing.
It reminds me of messing around with machineguns/suppressors, in that relatively few have owned one but many know alllllllll about them.

Anyway, I showed him my targets (most of them) and left him with a single Lyman 311041 cast from lino (that I had bought from someone else) and a look of wonderment.

[frank_1947]

i been shooting lead long long time, only problem I have is some store bought ones have had some issues but those I cast useing lyman #2 mix have left my barrel just nice as could be just last wk end we had a steel plate match 300 rounds shooting my 9mm steel gun (avatar picture of gun) not a trace of leading and my lube is home made and not some felix mix either just candles and a spoon of vasoline or toilet bowl seal wax, smoke a bit but it works.

[Jim]

Consider the source, fellas. Just consider the source.

[fredj338]

Lead bullets are almost all I shoot out of my handguns & a few rifles. Other than a bit more smoke, my best cast bullet loads will outshoot most guys best jacketed loads w/ lttle extra cleanup. Now there are some bbls. that will not shoot lead bullets w/o leading, but they are rare.

[cbr]

Lots of people think Im crazy when I tell them I shoot lead bullets in my Glocks, 8mm mauser, 30-30, etc. So many people have misconceptions about the whole cast boolit thing. I just smile and say it works for me. It does take some expermenting sometimes, but when you find that right combo, its great. If they dont want to try it, thats fine, more wheel weights for us!

[mooman76]

He is absolutely right! I have a hard enough time finding lead as it is without a bunch of new non believers jumpin in!

[drumgool]

I have been casting boolits for a couple of years now. I started casting for a 454 casull . I now cast for about everything I own .

When I started people said it would be more trouble than its worth to much leading you will never get your gun clean. But after two years I have never had a leading problem . My latest project is a 30-30 Marlin I shot about a 100 round this weekend testing loads . Wile I wasn't suscessfull finding a load I liked I had no leading .

I talked to people at the range verry few are open minded to what I doing but most are not . Thats fine with me there the ones loosing out on all the fun.

[badgeredd]

I just realized that the only jacketed bullets I've shot in the last 18 months were to get empties so I could reload with cast.
Edd

[BD]

That guy you met at the range is absolutely correct! All that lead will just ruin your guns. The only sane thing to do is collect it all up and put it out by the curb. I'll be by and clean it up for you tomorrow :)
BD

[9.3X62AL]

That guy you met at the range is absolutely correct! All that lead will just ruin your guns. The only sane thing to do is collect it all up and put it out by the curb. I'll be by and clean it up for you tomorrow :)
BD

And don't forget to take all those nasty, ultra-toxic wheelweights from his cars, too. SAVE THE BABY CONDORS!

[TCLouis]

how it feels when you have a battle of wits with an unarmed man!

I quit arguing with folks like that so long ago, ignorance is oft spouted loudest by those who have little real knowledge.

[twotrees]

When my club started hunter pistol course for center fire hand guns, I shot the first week with my 7 inch RBH and 358156 boolits. I did quite well, didn't take first but placed well up there.:-D

I was not going to be able to make the second match and a good friend asked to borrow my gun and tell him what load I was shooting. (First bad move NEVER lend out a gun). He loaded some 357 SWAGED lead boolits and my load of 2400.

He gave me the gun back saying after the first 10 shots he just about couldn't hit the ground with that gun.

One look down the bore told me all I had to know, No sign of rifling, just a dark black tube.

4 nights of scrubbing got it back in shooting form, never to be lent out again.[smilie=b:

That pistol has over 10K rounds through it and has NEVER had a "J" word bullet in it.:castmine:

Other than my "Friend's adventure" it's never shown anymore than a few flake of lead.

Yep, the Lead Boolits are BAD for your guns, send and lead/alloys care of Twotrees Brown D-Ville Ga.
[smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[mroliver77]

I had shot purchased lead with little luck and thought leading was a part of it until Willbird showed me the light some 15 years ago. It has been a fun learning adventure and I have saved hundreds by spending thousands since. ;)
My one good shootin buddy always kinda nodded his head when I talked of cast but would never shoot any. Seems his father in law loading mentor had told him I must stretch the truth as cast is not very accurate, leads badly and is a poor killer. We did a pig hunt this last winter and I cast up some boolits for his 30-30. We tested in newsprint until we got the performance we wanted. I showed him how to work a load up until accuracy goes south and that is limit for this alloy. Heat treated some of same and pushed it harder. In the end he wacked a porker with a 45 degree shot just in front of the piggies shoulder. Boolit traveled through a lot of pig leaving fantastic wound channel and destroying very little meat. I made sure we autopsied his and my animals. He was sold then and tried to explain to the FIL. Now FIL thinks we are both stupid!
Jay

[Slow Elk 45/70]

IT Really is amazing how "Smart" some of these self appointed experts are....a legend in his own mind , no doubt.

[Buckshot]

..............This kind of topic comes up now and then, or a similar one will come up like, "How often do you clean your rifle". Generally meaning the barrel. The issue generally has to do with leading, even if leadng isn't mentioned per se.

As Willbird mentioned, non-accumulative leading or leading that does not affect accuracy is not "leading" as most people use the word. If you shoot a particular handgun or rifle and it is consistently accurate from use to use, yet at home the first patch has a few bits of lead flakes or 'sparklies' on it, is that leading? Technically yes, but commonly no. There could be a mechanical issue that causes the first couple of rounds to deposit a bit, or succeding rounds sweep the previous out and lay down a bit of their own. Regardless the means, it isn't hurting anything.

In answer to the cleaning question or a thread like this one I like to bring up an 03-A1 I have. It's a lovely rifle to shoot, and was one of my favorites for our weekly informal "Burrito Invitational" match. It was 10 rounds offhand with iron sights. Used to 5 @ 50 and 5@ 100 but after several years we simplified it to 10 at 50 :-). Besides that I used it for our range's monthly 200 meter silhuette match, plus it was just flat fun to plink with. The load I ALWAYS shot was the Lyman 311284 over dacron and 23.0grs of H4198.

Since it is a bore rider I tumble lubed it with well thinned Lee TL, then lubed the grooves with Javalina. Velocity was 1625 fps. I NEVER cleaned that rifle. I never HAD to clean the rifle. That load certainly isn't straining WW or even "Whatchagot" alloy that was in the pot when I needed some more 311284's. Since I shot it almost every week I'd simply wipe it with a silicone impregnated rag since I'd handled it, but the bore was fine as I figured the boolit lube would suffice for it's short stay in the safe. I have no idea how many rounds I had through it. Why ruin a good thing?:-)

There are only 2 times I clean a rifle's barrel after shooting cast. One is if I was experimenting and getting less then desired accuracy. I'd check for leading first, by cleaning. Second is if I had no plans as to when I'd shoot it next so it'd get cleaned, oiled and put up.

I think most these leading tales get told and re-told because someone thought they'd give cast boolits a try and so ordered up some commercial cast to see what was up. Not that the commercial guys produce crap, but unless they're custom casters they produce hard alloy slugs, use hard hi-heat lubes and size to common diameters. These days many commercial casters do offer slugs in several sizes for selected calibers, but that wasn't always so common. Anyway our guy gets his hard .357" SWC's, loads his 358" groove 38 Special and leads it to a fair thee well. Ditto the guy shooting grandpa's Trapdoor with some hard .457" 405gr slugs in a .461" barrel, etc & etc.

Obviously this cast boolit stuff is for crazy people.

..............Buckshot

[mroliver77]

...

Obviously this cast boolit stuff is for crazy people.

..............Buckshot

Ya, and how we do love it!!
Jay

[Bret4207]

I used to drift around cyberspace quite a bit. The one common factor I've found is that every site has know it all's, every site has a " your new, therefore stupid" attitude and every gun related sight is chock full of retards and morons. This site is one of the very few exceptions. Some of the mechanical sites are pretty fair and so are some of the farm sites. Almost without exception the gun sites are FULL of idiots and not just cast related idiots but pure 100% mouth breathing, plant life IQ idiots. They believe EVERYTHING in the latest issue of "Tacticool Extreme SWAT Ninja Monthly" and speak of their "tactical reports from their AO". The amount of pure BS would cover my fields in 6" of bull excrement, and even then it would be poor fertilizer.

So take anything from 99% of the other sites with a large dose of salt. While this site isn't perfect it's a high step above most anything else you'll find out there.

[superior]

I load 4 different boolits..3 for rifle and one for pistol. I still don't know what leading looks like. I do notice, however that the nose on my bore-riders fit more tightly into the muzzle after a shooting session. Upon scrubbing out the barrel, they don't fit as tightly. Therefore, I've decided not to clean the barrel from now on unless the rifle will be stored for an extended period of time. I think this is the "uniform bore condition" Ed Harris refers to in his thread (cast boolits for military rifles).

[Marlin Hunter]

I tellya, it never ceases to amaze me.

....

He called me a liar for pointing out that proper cast bullet loads do NOT lead the gun, or to be more precise I explained they may deposit a small amount, but that if things are working right if we fire 5 rounds or 5,000 rounds we will have the same possibly tiny amount of lead in the barrel. A stable condition exists where lead is not building up.

He felt the 5,000 round figure was completely absurd.

...

Bill


copper jacket bullets foul the barrel too. he may not notice it until he swabs the barrel with Sweets bore cleaner

[mpmarty]

10mm, 40S&W, 7.5X55 Swiss, 7.62 NATO (308), 45/70 all home cast boolits and no leading. Bores shine and will last "forever" due to the lower coefficient of friction with cast boolits. Don't tell the Jboolit bunch, they need to support Speer, Sierra, Hornady, Nosler et al.[smilie=1:

[felix]

Keep the velocities for the caliber low and the gun will last longer that you will. Push any projectile up to the proper pressure range for the caliber as per jacketed loads, the gun won't last longer no matter the projectile. Powder combustion heat applied to the throat on the molecular level is the culprit for wear, and not any frictional sliding force. ... felix

[dubber123]

Felix, I'm a bit confused. In my 1911, I tried to duplicate ball ammo speeds. My 230's run about 845 fps, same as 230 FMJ's. I have almost 18,000 of them down the tube, and the barrel if anything, looks better than new. I always heard about 10,000 rounds of jacketed would begin to seriously degrade accuracy in a 1911.

Does your statement apply more to rifle calibers, or am I missing something?

[9.3X62AL]

There are a LOT of myths that get perpetuated through some combination of BS, lack of knowledge, lack of experience, or lack of leadership. The mainstream gun press in its headlong rush to SELL SELL SELL the latest TRASH TRASH TRASH is part of that, although let me state that our member Mike V CERTAINLY DOES NOT fit that description.

There is also a lack of mentors out there for younger shooters to learn from. One of the founding precepts of this site was to truthfully and objectively test and report on the poured projectile--its capabilities--and its limitations. In brief, the membership here become the mentors to a new generation of shooters, who may not embrace casting or the more esoteric elements of the hobby field--but at least are given the oppurtunity for exposure to some factual information and reasonable, rational discussion.

My view--the capabilities of the poured projectile are pretty comprehensive, and their limitations are few. Bullet casting is my primary hobby, and I choose most firearms based on their cast boolit shooting potential. If that makes me a nutjob or a crank, I'm good with that.

[Thumbcocker]

I think that a lot of this starts when a person decides to give lead a try and buys a box of hard cast undersized bevel based projectiles lobed with gawdknowswhat hard stuff. Having heard about keeping the velocity low they load them over a small charge of fast powder. Result leading on cylinder, in bore, and in the forceing cone. Lots of scrubbing and swearilg later and the person is a born again boolit hater.

When I was a young puppy caster I called Lyman about water dropping my cast wc's that I was shooting in a M27 and was told to size them .357 and "you can't get cast bullets too hard" as a result of this I was scrubbing lead all the time. Since I considered Lyman reps to sit at the right hand of all things cast lead I proceeded and got leaded bores and led in the cylinder.

[cajun shooter]

At one time years ago you could go into any gun store in this great country of ours and talk with someone who knew guns. Sadly that time is long gone. A young man at Cabela's showed a friend of mine a Ruger revolver and pointed out the"New transfer bar system" I told my friend that this person had been in a coma for the last thirty years. Even some of the Internet system experts are off base. I wish that the old stores would be around so that my sons and grandsons could enjoy what I did growing up. If you were not going hunting you went to the store every Saturday and these guys who were experts in the fields of engraving, stock restoration, casting and loading were all there. You listened and learned. Sorry guys I wondered off for a while.

[JSH]

My favorite case for CB's is the 30-20, 32-20 with a 308 bore. I don't really clean either of the two I have. A clean dry patch, followed with a damp one in Kroil. I do this more for my piece of mind than to clean them. I did run a bunch through both of them several years back with no cleaning, just a dry patch. Then that was only after lube had gotten gummy and was causing some loading problems.
Worst case of leading I ever had was with store bought stuff that was gaurANTEEEEEED not to lead. I called them on it and of course it was the guns fault being a milsurp, ya know how bad those bores are........ It took me about two weeks to get the thing cleaned to where I was happy. I have being shooting my home brewed ones since with nary a glitch.
I did finally get the store bought stuff to not lead, but never grouped worth a hoot, after two coats of lee mule snot. Also that was my first experiance shooting a GC design with out the GC, as they were sold as a PB, go figure.
I don't try nor want to convert anymore guys to shooting CB'seither. Let them stimulate the economy.
Jeff

[oldtoolsniper]

I am of the opinion our society has changed so much to a “non working with your hands” society that folks can’t be bothered with something they can’t use right out of the box. Most people don’t want to do any “dirty work” anymore. When you compile the “dirty work” of getting to the cast boolit, and then the challenges of getting that boolit to perform in the gun to a level that is satisfactory and it’s beyond our throwaway society. I heat my house with wood. When the city cuts down hardwood trees from the parking they dump them in my back yard for nothing. I only get the logs, no brush or small limbs. I told my neighbors they could come and get all the campfire wood they wanted so not one of them complains when I run the chainsaw or log splitter. They don’t see why I do it. I pay $35-$40 a month in the winter for electricity and they are paying $400-$500 a month. So you can work for someone for 40-50 hours a week and give it to the power company or cut wood. I honestly believe it’s the same thing with boolits.

[SciFiJim]

If you were not going hunting you went to the store every Saturday and these guys who were experts in the fields of engraving, stock restoration, casting and loading were all there.

Now these guys are all here. I as a new shooter and caster (less than a year) am grateful that they are here. Find the thread about years of accumulated knowledge that we have here. It's far, far more that could ever be found in one gun shop.

[1Shirt]

Am always amazed at the experts on the subject who MAY have fired a cast blt, but often have only read an article or two about leading.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[fishhawk]

friend of mine picked up a Garand and was going to use cast in it. he got a mould and some WW and cast up a bunch loaded them up and fired away. need less to say leaded very bad. i asked him did you slug the bore and size the the boolits oversize? he said no thats to much screwing around! that dam cast stuff just doesn't work! well i just said OK and chalked it up to his being bullheaded and didn't even try to set him strait. steve k

[mdi]

Unfortunately, you'll meet that kind of "expert" at just about any range you go to. I started shooting lead with store bought boolits and of course had problems. First with the swaged soft lead things, and then the "standard" sized cast boolits (.429" for my 44s). Of course I got leading! Too soft and too small. When I learned about proper sizes and casting alloys, funny thing, leading went away!

[oldtoolsniper]

friend of mine picked up a Garand and was going to use cast in it. he got a mould and some WW and cast up a bunch loaded them up and fired away. need less to say leaded very bad. i asked him did you slug the bore and size the the boolits oversize? he said no thats to much screwing around! that dam cast stuff just doesn't work! well i just said OK and chalked it up to his being bullheaded and didn't even try to set him strait. steve k

You should help him out and buy the mold from him for 1/2 price so it isn't a total loss for him![smilie=1:

[jcwit]

Only guns I have trouble with leading in is 9mm. In 8 years of loading them I've still to find the secret. I load cast for 30 cal carbine, 38/357, 45 ACP, a few 32 ACP "just dont shoot them much" all of these with no problem, and no leading. I've sluged the bores, used different lubes ect., ect., all to no avail. This is in 8 or 10 different pistols. Finally gave up and shoot the revolvers and 45's more.

Only other trouble I ever had was with a brand new S&W 22A that leaded till I had maybe 20 boxes thru it. Lead would come out in strings as long as 2" sometimes. Couldn't figure that one out either.

[SciFiJim]

You should help him out and buy the mold from him for 1/2 price so it isn't a total loss for him![smilie=1:

And the Garand too![smilie=1:

[jonk]

friend of mine picked up a Garand and was going to use cast in it. he got a mould and some WW and cast up a bunch loaded them up and fired away. need less to say leaded very bad. i asked him did you slug the bore and size the the boolits oversize? he said no thats to much screwing around! that dam cast stuff just doesn't work! well i just said OK and chalked it up to his being bullheaded and didn't even try to set him strait. steve k
Tell me he used a bullet lube and something other than a full tilt charge???????

[fishhawk]

well i was aggravated enough by then i didn't ask further as to what powder and charge he was using. so if he wants to pay the price for Jbullets thats his problem. steve k