Cylinder and Bore Leading Frustration.

[462]

I have a 6 1/2" S&W 624 .44 Special that always leads the cylinder throats and the first 1/2" of the barrel. Mould is Lyman's 429421 and loads have been from 700 fps to 1000 fps. Bore slugs at .430" and pin gaged cylinder throats measure .432". I've "beagled" the mould to drop at .432", but the boolits still measure from .429" to .430" near the seperation line. I have enlarged a sizer to .432". Alloys have been water dropped clip-on wheel weights with a tested BHN of 14.3 and an un-tested mix of air cooled 50/50 clip-on/stick-ons. I've tried adding 2% tin. Nothing eliminates nor increases the amount of leading.
Is the boolit not obturating enough?
Do I need a bigger boolit?
Do I need a harder alloy?
Do I need a softer alloy?
Do I cry "uncle" and move on to a gas checked boolit?
Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated.

[mpmarty]

Interesting... do all the cylinder throats lead equally? If so your problem will be easier to solve. If not then the first step would be to identify the chambers that cause the leading and tend to them before looking further.

[cabezaverde]

I will be watching this one. I have a Ruger SP101 that is giving me similar fits.

[felix]

Boolits are too small, somewhere. Like you say, on the parting line. Keep increasing the diameter of the softest alloy you can make without water dropping for testing. Adjust the load to shoot 800 fps max. You will eventually find the diameter needed. Hard lead MUST be completely cylinder diameter to shoot error free. ... felix

[Shuz]

You don't mention the powder you are using. My guess, based on your velocity and results, is that you are using a fast powder like Bulleye, Red Dot, and/or up to Unique, a slightly slower one. Try 15.0 to 18.0g of 2400 and I bet your leading will greatly diminish, if not disappear.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Agree with Feix, I usect that your boolits are a bit small , you might want to check your seating /crimp die and be sure you arn't sizing the boolit down when seating , most factory expander balls are good for J bullets , I have gone to larger expanders to solve similar problems. Make up a dummy round and Try for a loaded round that will chamber in all chambers , but with out slop. Good Luck.

[leftiye]

Lap your mold so that you can make boolits that are .432 across the mold face line. Or bigger. Taint boolit hardness - hard doesn't stop flame cutting (a gas seal does).

[Sprue]

Don't go get frustrated, you will find the proper boolit size, combo etc... Lead WW's is all that I shoot and NO leading. Myself I pretty much use Unique exclusivley.

Now go scrub that bore again........... :razz:

[Windy City Kid]

You said, the boolits still measure from .429" to .430" near the seperation line.

I think when you "Beagled" the mold, you are getting bullets that are .429" to 430" by .432. In other words when you are sizing the bullets you aren't getting a bullet that is .432" in diameter all of the way around the bullet. You need a fatter bullet, try lapping the mold or "beagle" the mold a bit more.

[462]

Many thanks for all your responses and suggestions. I've been reading this site's posts for about a year, and the archives, too, and all that you've said has been covered before. Not all of it has been retained in the memory bank, though.

To address a few individual responses:
mpmarty -- All the cylinder throats are the same size and lead equally.

SHUZ -- I've used Bullseye, 231, Unique, Blue Dot, and 2400 and they all caused leading. The plinking accuracy load (before the leading causes it to go South) is 4.9 grains of Bullseye. Eighteen grains of 2400 is too much for .44 Special. The maximum load is 17.0 grains, and it's been accurate, but leading has been an issue.

Felix, Leftiye, and Windy City Kid -- The next step will be lapping the mould. I know about the process but have to admit that I didn't think of it. Instead, I was resigned to living with an out of round boolit that leads, or going with a gas check design.

Updates to follow, but it will take some time as my shooting time is more limited than what I'd like it to be.

[MtGun44]

What lube?

Bill

[462]

Lube is a mixture of one stick of Jake's "Purple Ceresin" and 1/2 stick of his "50/50" Beeswax/Alox. I get lube stars on handguns and rifles.

[Larry Gibson]

Try the 50/50 lube all by itself or try Javelina. I've shot thousands of 429421s sized .429 out of .430 to .443 cyylinder throats with no leading. I've always used Javelina or any good 50/50 lube.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

get them bigger.
i have seen guns shoot boolits that were waay too small just fine before but it was a case of the cylinder lining up with the bore correctly.
if you try a few other things and they don't work look to the alignment of the bore and cylinders.

[dwtim]

I am surprised that the throats are so generous on a newer S&W. I'm a big fan of oversize and lower charge. I would want the base band to be .433". Elsewhere, I'd see how big I could get the bullets before a dummy round won't chamber, then go a tad smaller.

Why are you WQ-ing clip-ons for a 15,000 psi cartridge? I like air-cooled WW for 45 ACP (upper end of pressure loads), but for that cartridge I would use my 8-9 BHN range scrap alloy. I use it with my 38 wadcutters with good success. Not that I think this is a bigger problem than undersizing, but it's extra work, no?

[44man]

Try the 50/50 lube all by itself or try Javelina. I've shot thousands of 429421s sized .429 out of .430 to .443 cyylinder throats with no leading. I've always used Javelina or any good 50/50 lube.

Larry Gibson
I too, have shot thousands of HARD bore size boolits out of large throats without leading.
We have to look back farther, close to the brass to figure out the throat leading. That is where his trouble starts.
It could be that one side that is .429 or he could be sizing the boolit when seating making it a lot smaller. His crimp die or even the seating die might be sizing the whole load. He could be crimping way to hard too and the crimp is not fully open on a fired case.
Even though water dropped, 14.3 BHN sounds too soft to resist seater sizing the boolit. He needs to seat a boolit without crimping it and pull it to see what it measures.
With the light loads and softer lead, he might have to expand the brass more and crimp more gently.
I put my money on a mechanical problem with how he loads.
Chambers might be way oversize and the round is laying at the bottom. He will need a much larger boolit to center the boolit better.
Yes guys, 14 BHN is still SOFT! The alloy with the stick on weights is even much softer and water dropping and aging should have taken them to 22 BHN. Why all clip ons are only 14 means the 50-50 alloy will be close to pure lead because the WW's he is starting with might be too soft to start with. They might have been recycled 100 times mixed with stick ons.
I am going the other way to suggest he get the alloy to at least 22 BHN. A lube change will not help. Water dropping and aging will also make his boolit larger in diameter with enough antimony.
A gas check will not help either in the throats. They do aid when seating to open the brass before the brass sizes the lead.
To just say "Make them softer or make them bigger" will not help.

[HeavyMetal]

I'll also suggest you take a good hard look at your die set! My experience has shown me that expander plugs .003 to .005 under boolit size will let the brass resize lead boolits as you seat them in the case.

So boolit diameter means nothing if your case's are doing this! I have seated .430 boolits in WW case's and pulled them to find they "mike'd" .427!

My suggestion: settle on one load, settle on one alloy. Now make one change at a time until the issue goes away! 6 Grains Unique and water dropped clip on WW's is a good baseline load.

First I would make, or have made, an expander plug that "mike's" .429. Then make up 25 rounds and go shoot them in a clean barrel. I would make sure I am not over crimping and that I was crimping in the crimp groove not on a driving band.

Think your lube is good. let us know how it works out.

[Shuz]

462--Do you have access to another .44 to try the same loads in? I'm beginning to think you have a bore cylinder line-up issue.

[45 2.1]

I have a 6 1/2" S&W 624 .44 Special that always leads the cylinder throats and the first 1/2" of the barrel. Mould is Lyman's 429421 and loads have been from 700 fps to 1000 fps. Bore slugs at .430" and pin gaged cylinder throats measure .432". I've "beagled" the mould to drop at .432", but the boolits still measure from .429" to .430" near the seperation line. I have enlarged a sizer to .432". Alloys have been water dropped clip-on wheel weights with a tested BHN of 14.3 and an un-tested mix of air cooled 50/50 clip-on/stick-ons. I've tried adding 2% tin. Nothing eliminates nor increases the amount of leading.
Is the boolit not obturating enough?
Do I need a bigger boolit? It would help.
Do I need a harder alloy? Absolutely not, go a lot softer
Do I need a softer alloy? About 7 to 8 BHN with your current mold should stop your problems
Do I cry "uncle" and move on to a gas checked boolit? No
Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated.

Cut your current alloy with pure lead 50% of each and air cool your boolits, lube them and load them.

[lathesmith]

462, I have noticed the exact same behavior in some of my six guns as well. I am sorry to report I do not have a universal fix, but I do have a few observations and things for you to try:
In my Ruger SBH, a light load of Red Dot or Bullseye with a SOFT lead 429421 or similar slug leaded the throats and barrel exactly as you describe, and only the forcing cone area + 1/2" or so of the barrel will lightly lead, and nothing else. This with 50/50 lube. The hard waxy stuff leaded severely after one cylinderful, as did hard lead slugs. However, with the Red Dot/soft lead load, accuracy doesn't really seem to suffer for at least 50-100 shots, maybe more.
Now, comes the interesting part; I can switch to a Lee 200 grain flatpoint, same load, same size, same lube, and leading totally disappears! Velocity stays nearly the same, around 700 fps. And this is the most accurate load I have for this gun! I'm still scratching my head on this one, but maybe I'll figure it out eventually...BTW, all the above loads are sized .430 or larger.

In a 357 Ruger BH, switching my light loads to HBWC's virtually eliminates leading, whereas the 158 gr swc's do the exact same thing as the above 44 loads. Switching to gas checked bullets, all leading disappears.

FWIW, my forcing-cone leading/throat leading problem is most noticable with light loads. Medium loads and heavier loads with the proper precautions never seem to lead in this manner. In fact leading at higher velocities has never really been an issue for me, just these confounded lower velocity ones.

And finally, I have a Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt that doesn't lead AT ALL with anything I have tried with it--light, medium, heavy. Whah? Magic? I haven't yet figured this stuff all out, but I do know ONE thing--I am keeping this Vaquero!
lathesmith

[462]

Quick update.

Last night, I lapped the mould a bit and was able to cast boolits that measured .431 along the part line, using pure lead (stick-on weights). A small step in the right direction.

After reading this morning's replies, I took HeavyMetal and 44man's advise and using those boolits, loaded some un-sized, un-crimped dummy rounds, then pulled them. Sure enough, the Lee seating die sized the boolits back down to .429+".

I can lap the mould to get even larger boolits, but would still be left with a seating die that re-sizes them too small. I don't have any machine tools with which to enlarge the die, and I assume the die has a tapered interior, so I don't want to attempt it by hand, which worked with a lubrisizer die. Any suggestions?

To answer SHUZ: Yes I have another gun, a 3" version, but it has the same leading problem.

In reply to dwtim: The gun isn't too new -- made in '85, the same year as the 3". It seems S&W was making some fat cylinders, that year.

[Shuz]

462--Try a larger diameter expander ball.

[44man]

462--Try a larger diameter expander ball.
Doesn't help if the seating die sizes the brass.

[462]

Shuz, two questions:
1. Didn't know larger expander balls are available. Who has them?
2. Wouldn't the seating die still size the boolit back to .429"?

[462]

44man, we were typing at the same time.
Thank you for your response.

[kelbro]

Even with dissenting opinions, this post has some very valuable tips. There is more than one cause for leading and there are also many potential solutions. Trying one or more of these suggestions should solve your problem.

In situations like this, you can save some time and components by first working on the root cause of the problem before attacking the symptoms.

The wealth of info on this board is invaluable!

[Shuz]

Shuz, two questions:
1. Didn't know larger expander balls are available. Who has them?
2. Wouldn't the seating die still size the boolit back to .429"?

I load my .44's on a Dillon Square Deal B and it's my understanding Dillon has different size expanders for their special dies for this press. Of course that won't help if your using another brand. You may try the mfr of your dies and see if they have different sizes available.

You and 44man are exactly correct, your seating die is the problem here. I missed that! I kept thinking the expander is too small! Sorry!
Try and see if you can get a different seating die that is bigger, or borrow a friends, etc.

[Bret4207]

Agree with Feix, I usect that your boolits are a bit small , you might want to check your seating /crimp die and be sure you arn't sizing the boolit down when seating , most factory expander balls are good for J bullets , I have gone to larger expanders to solve similar problems. Make up a dummy round and Try for a loaded round that will chamber in all chambers , but with out slop. Good Luck.

Ditto.

Whoops, posted before I read about the sizer die! You can get the sizer die modified by Lee ( Ithink thats who you said made the die) or you can try lapping it out yourself with abrasive paper on a split rod using a drill or cordless screwdriver. Redding makes a die set using interchangeable sizers that might work, but $$$$$.

[HeavyMetal]

462:
Read post 21 and looks like your on the right path.

My next question: is your Lee seating die one of those Factory carbide crimp dies? I've had issues with them and Lee can replace it.

If it's a steel die, with no carbide insert, you can return it to Lee and ask them to make it larger. I had a problem with a 45 Colt die set years ago, the area in the die where the sliding boolit seater moved up and down was actually cut for .451 bullets. Anything I loaded just caught the "edge" and seated the boolits I was making without the seating plunger or adjusting screw in place!

If you can take some measurements of the inside area of the die. If you can't make sure you explain to the Lee "tech" what you did and what your boolit diameters were before and after seating the boolits. Send a letter explaining the same thing with the die set if you return it.

Lee should be able to fix the die set for you and, if it was a recent purchase, they should do it for free.

[462]

Here's my next step: Though the seating die sizes-down the boolit, I loaded a few rounds of the pure lead, pan lubed, tapered crimped boolits with 11.4 grains of 2400 at 704 fps, according to Lyman's 46th. I realize that the boolits are still a bit too small, but I'm hoping that, just maybe, the softer alloy, slower powder, and low velocity will help obturate the boolit enough to either reduce or eliminate the leading.

I'll be heading to the range in a few hours. If this test proves unsuccessful, the next step will be to lap the steel Lee seating diel (thank you, HeavyMetal). The mould can be lapped some more, too.

Thanks to ALL of you, frustration has been replaced with hope.

Range report to follow...

[Tom Herman]

I have a 6 1/2" S&W 624 .44 Special that always leads the cylinder throats and the first 1/2" of the barrel.

Stick with it! The 624 is an awesome gun once you get it right.
I also use 50/50 scrap lead to WW, plus 2% Tin and lube with my homemade dead ringer for SPG. Bullets are water dropped...
This produces little to no leading with 6.5 grains Unique in my 624.

I had fits with the 624 when I used commercial cast lead, even the "guaranteed not to lead" brand (that I collected the guarantee on).
I got lead everywhere in the barrel, and the cure was to cast my own.
One short cut was to run a cylinder or two full of Berry's plated bullets through the bore. That got rid of the lion's share of the lead.
I wish you luck working up a load that works well for you. Once I got through my rough patch, the gun has been nothing but a dream!

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[462]

Range report: LEADING HAS BEEN REDUCED!!! Your replies had changed my frustration to hope, now I'm elated. Leading is still in the cylinder throats and forcing cone/barrel, but has been reduced by about 60%.

My next step will be to lap the seating die to reduce its sizing effect. Also, I will lap the mould a bit more to increase the part line dimension. I will post the results of the next bit of experimenting.

I'm not one to ask for help, and it took many months before I posted my dilemma. I've been reloading for many years, but casting is a new experience and I was completely flummoxed by this leading problem. I don't want to appear to be redundant, but this is a terrific group of very knowledgeable casters and shooters who are eager to help others, and it is appreciated more than words can convey.

[leftiye]

Lyman dies - none of my SEATERS size the boolit at all. Except for a factory crimp die, or a taper crimp die, no seater that I know of is SUPPOSED to size the boolit.

However, with soft lead, and a tight case, the case will size the boolit when it is seated. Shuz is correct, a larger expander ball is needed. There are a bunch of us here who can make you a larger expander ball.

Or, you could try a harder alloy - if you aren't worried about getting boolit expansion for hunting purposes. Wheelweights half and half with pure heat treated is as hard as Linotype.

I'd lap a little more too.

[462]

Okay, here's the latest.
In order to keep the case's interior as large as possible, I used a .45 Colt sizer/decapper die, as it doesn't size the case down from its fire formed size.

I've lapped and "beagled" the mould to drop at .434"/.435", and now the boolits are substantially more round.

I've enlaged the lubrisizer to .433". At that size, the boolit is a very tight fit in the case mouth.

I did some work on the inside of the seating die, and instead of a pulled boolit measuring .429", it is now .431". With a boolit seated, there doesn't appear to be any bulge to the case -- it is the same outside diameter its entire length. Before, when sized with a .44 sizer, a .431" boolit caused a very visible bulge. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that .431" is the "spring back" size of the case.

This time, I'm going to use a mixture of 50/50 clip-on/stick-on, to see if a harder alloy has any effect. Ideally, I'd like to use a straight clip-ons. God willing, Friday will be the next range session.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

462, I would make sure the sizing die is giving you the boolit size you need , I like .432 for mine, works in several 44's , be sure your expander ball is large enough and hone your seater until it quits sizing the boolit , just go easy and be sure your dummy round will still chamber, so take it slow. If you get these right, your pistola should shoot, given what you have said about the cylinders and barrel.[smilie=1:

You can't use measurements with pure and expect that the boolit will be the same when you build your "shooting" alloy. Go to WW now if that is what you want to shoot and pour some and do your checking with them. IF you want to save on the WW, go 50/50 WW/Pure
If you think you want a harder boolit, water drop them.

I know this sounds repetative, but it will work if you work it. IMHO[smilie=1:

Hang in, you will get it.:drinks:

[MtGun44]

You will win. Getting your gear to deliver a final boolit that will ACTUALLY be throat diam
plus .001 or .002 is sometime trivial, occasionally a real PITA. Once you are there, you
should have no significant leading.

Keep at it, you seem to be winning. Good luck.

Bill

[HeavyMetal]

Friday should be an enlightening experience!

Looking forward to the range report!

[243winxb]

Casting bullets
Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you bullets drop from the mould undersize using 50/50 -WW& Pure Lead, you will need to add more wheel weight to increase there diameter. Lead shrinks more as it cools in the mould then wheel weights. Linotype can be added to increase bullet diameter also.
Quote:
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list
are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum
bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic,
91.75% lead).
Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably
depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation
can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on
the weight among the most commonly used casting
alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might
show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference
in weight.
Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5%
tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having
the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with
such bullets running approximately .3% smaller in
diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with
Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the
largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will
produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3%
lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony,
with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets
with diameters and weights falling between those cast
from wheel weights and linotype.
Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably
smaller than wheel weights and in some cases
will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.
Within the limitations given above, the weight and
diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.
The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also
vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures
will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet
cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter
bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature Cast Bullets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heat Treating/Water dropping of bullets was invented to reduce the amount of costly alloy using tin and antimony. United States Patent 5464487 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.htmlI fine water dropping to be a waste of time when casting bullets with the proper alloy. Water and hot alloy can explode it they come in contact with each other. While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore. I have read that this process can take up to 24 hours as the alloy oxidizes. If your going to size a cast bullet, wait 1 day. Plain base bullets to 1400fps, gas checked to 2200fps without leading. Check Lee lead testing chat for the maximum pressure allowed for you alloy hardness. Also us the formula > Bullet's BHN x 1422 = Pounds per square inch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obturate Cast alloy bullets should never Obturate. The bullet is sized over groove diameter by .0005" to .001" Some rifles will like as much as .003" over groove diameter. Casting bullets is really simple most times. If the bullet diameter is correct as it drops for the mould, you are good to go.. Pure lead will be undersize in diameter, unless using a Black powder/muzzle loader mould. High antimony will be on the large size. Always make sure you have 2 % tin in the alloy and you will never have leading. 22LR bullet have little to no tin and only 3 % antimony at the most. The some how dont lead the bore. This is where a very good lube is needed. Lee mould are regulated using 10-1 lead/tin alloy and should drop from the mould .003" larger than the diameter listed on the mould. Lyman uses there #2 alloy to get the correct bullet diameter as it drops for the mould.90% lead , 5 tin, 5 antimony. To make #2 alloy, use 5 1/2 lbs wheel weight, 1lb 50/50 lead/ tin bar solder, 3 1/2 lbs pure lead. FLUXING-Heat the alloy for about 20 minutes until it becomes liquid. A gray scum will rise to the surface, this is Tin. Tin being lighter , will float to the top of the mix. Fluxing will recombine the tin -lead-antimony mix. To flux , drop in tallow, beeswax or bullet lubricant (beeswax),. Stir the mixture, scrape the sides/botton of the pot. Black and brown impurities will rise to the surface for skimming. Zinc wheel weight should be avoided as zinc keeps the bullet from filling out completely, sometimes using more heat will help. Avoid any/all Bismuth alloys. Alloys containing high percentages (52% +) of Bismuth will grow bigger in diameter after 3 days. Radiation Shielding has Bismuth in it. PDF file here> http://www.aimspecialty.com/AIM-flie...g%20Alloys.pdf More on Bismuth here > http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-...ts/fusible.htm A high content of Bismuth will cause the mix to melt at a much lower temperature. Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

[mroliver77]

As was stated earlier. Use the 50/50 mix or straight WW and stick with it for now. Get boolit up to size. Fix the dies to give you the sizes you need. Then see where you are at. Prolly a matter of fine tuning after that. I have new Ruger BH in .45 Colt that has not given me one bit of trouble or leading. Kind of a disappointment to not have to fiddle around with it. ;)
Jay

[462]

A couple posts mention an expander ball in the sizing die. My dies are Lee and the sizer/decapper die doesn't have an expander ball, like a bottle-necked case does. Are there dies for straight-neck cases than use an expander ball?

A .433" sized boolit in a dummy round will chamber. A dummy round with an unsized .434" boolit won't chamber. I think I'm good with the .433" size.

I seated a boolit using a .45 Colt die, but when pulled, the boolit was still sized down. I don't think the sizing down is necessarily being caused by the .44 seating die, but, rather, by the case having reached its maximum interior dimension. Remember, I decapped the cases using a .45 Colt die, so they are at their fire-formed sizes.

Friday won't get here too soon enough...

[243winxb]

You might have a " the powder through expanding die" Die set explanations

Pacesetter die set

Includes a full length sizing die, bullet seating die, factory crimp die, shell holder, powder dipper and load data.
This set is recommended for assembling ammunition for hunting purposes as the finished rounds chamber easily and can withstand rough handling of the firearm action.

Limited Production Pacesetter die set

This set consists of a two die set which includes a full length steel sizing die(requires case lubrication), bullet seating die, shell holder, powder dipper and load data.

Collet die set

Includes the Collet neck sizing die, dead length bullet seating die, shell holder, powder dipper and load data.
This set is designed for assembling the most accurate ammunition but is not recommended for hunting rounds as the case is neck sized only and the bullet is not crimped in the case.

Deluxe die set

Includes both the full length(requires case lubrication) and Collet neck sizing dies, dead length bullet seating die, shell holder, powder dipper and load data.
This is essentially a Collet die set with the addition of the steel full length sizing die so that one can prepare newly acquired cases for the first firing in the rifle.

RGB (Really Great Buy)

Comes as a standard two die rifle set that contains a full length sizing die and a crimper / seater die. This set is designed to meet a tight budget and contains only the dies.

Carbide die set

Carbide handgun dies contain the carbide sizer, the powder through expanding die, the seater/crimping die, a powder dipper, shell holder and load data. The seater/crimper die applies a modified taper crimp and eventually a roll crimp negating the need for a separate taper crimp die.

Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set

Includes our popular three die carbide handgun die set explained above plus the addition of our Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. This additional die has a carbide ring that post sizes your case ensuring that your loaded cartridge will fit into the chamber of your gun. Additionally, the degree of crimp is determined by the finger adjustable crimp knob on top of the die. This die is meant to work in conjuction with your bullet seating die as it has no provision for seating the bullet itself. Here is what an RCBS decapper/belling unit looks like. It opens the inside of the case to the correct diameter and bells the mouthl. This one is for a 357mag. but you get the idea how it works. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/expander_1.jpg

[243winxb]

Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die If you have one of these, stop using it.

[462]

243winxb, I have the Lee carbide set without the Factory Crimp Die., and have been using just a taper crimp.

Did a experiment and seated a .433" boolit using a bench vise. The pulled boolit measured .4325". I've opened the seating die so that a pulled boolit measures .432". Obviously, case tension has a sizing effect. I can do more expansion work on the seating die, but will wait till after the next range session.

[bobke]

interesting thread, just found. curious...are you using the same brass for building all loads for testing? even given the same brass, some work hardens after multiple loadings and may be an issue. seems some brands are harder than others and may have some springback and although you continue to modify the dies, the brass may not be very elastic and may be causing some of the sizing issues of bullets, regardless of alloy. as i hadn't seen this mentioned, was wondering if this might be another possibility.

good work by all to resolve it, regardless. i'm learning something i'll apply to my bisley when it comes back from barrel setback and a recut cone.

[243winxb]

have been using just a taper crimp. Revolvers get roll crimped. Lee seating dies taper and roll crimp in the same die. If your seating die taper is too small in diameter, it would have been sizing your case and bullet down to much. From Lee website
Seating die crimp style

There are two crimp shoulders in our bullet seating dies. The first shoulder applies a slight taper crimp and the second shoulder applies a full roll crimp. The closer the die is adjusted to the shell holder the heavier the crimp will be.

Also
Bullet Seating Adjustment

The trick is to set the bullet seating depth first, then the crimp. This is done as follows; With an empty, sized case in the shell holder, hold the ram at the top of its stroke. Turn the bullet seating die body down over the case until you feel it come to a stop. This will be when the case mouth contacts the crimp shoulder inside the die. Mark this position by turning the lock ring down against the turret or press frame. Now adjust your bullet seating depth. Once you have the bullet seated to the desired depth, back the bullet seater adjuster out about 1 turn. Now turn the bullet seating die body in to apply the desired crimp. Once this is established, hold the ram at the top of its stroke and spin the bullet seater adjuster down until it stops.

It is a good idea to carry this out with an empty case, so that after you have seated the bullet, you have a perfectly safe "dummy" cartridge (or gauge) to repetitively set seating depth and crimp on future occasions.

Once you have this "dummy" gauge, all you have to do is place it in the shell holder, raise the ram to the top of its stroke, turn the bullet seating body down until it stops, and then turn the bullet seating depth adjuster in until it stops. Since the crimp and the seating depth were already set, the die will return to very close to the same settings.

[462]

1. bobke, excellent point about the brass. All the brass is Starline, but they have been reloaded a number of times. I have some that are new and will use them for further testing. Thank you.

2. 243winxb, since the case is such a tight fit in the seating die, this last bit of testing has been done using just a taper crimp. With low velocities, I don't think a roll crimp will be necessary. Besides, in the process of enlarging the die, the roll crimp ring is almost completely gone. The die will probably only work for this particular bullet, from now on. But thats okay.

[Bass Ackward]

Gee wiz, sounds like every single principal has been stated or employed. Maybe you don't have a leading issue?

One more thing to watch that can give you a false impression that you are still leading is the tapers or leades. These are the angles just in front of your case. Normally the spiral tool marks are shot smooth with about 1000 rounds. I won't even waste time trying a PB bullet until I have 1000 rounds through a gun unless it is hard bullets at high velocity. Soft lead too soon in some guns will drive you nuts.

If your brass is sizing your bullet, then you can bet your booty that your PB is fully expanding in the case under pressure. This will mean that, in order for your bullet to pass into the throat, those tapers must size down the base band without scraping off lead. If it does, then it will allow a break in the seal even though you have done everything else correct. This can also be achieved if this area has leaded in the past and it simply wasn't removed fully before the next secession.

This is easy to see if you use a bright light into your chambers and look off angle so that the light is not shining in your eyes. If you have magnifiers, use them. Removal can be tricky since it is hard to see. Normally, I would recommend shooting some high pressure jacketed and have the powder blast those marks away. But in low pressure cartridges / guns, (44 Special) it may never come out without proper cleaning and this can take try the patience of Job.

Look close, because every step you have taken since the first page "should have" solved your "current" leading problem. Now if you can cure the old problem, maybe you will be fine.

[Char-Gar]

The kinds of threads tend to confuse a fellow. I "assume" this 6.5" 624 was one of the run that was made in the early 80s following the limited run of 24s made by those of us who wrote Smith and Wesson at the urging of Skeeter Skelton.

If, I am correct about the vintage of this sixgun, it was made at the peak of lousy workmanship by Smith and Wesson. I have one of the 6.5" and one of the 4" 24 and after a time got rid of both of them, as they were persistant leaders. I was able to reduce the lead, but never eliminate it. I had to sent both of them back to the factory for repairs even before they were fired. I said, the quality was lousy didn't I?

The problem was not just a load problem, but a problem with the revolver as well. The cylinder barrel forcing cone was shallow and very rough. I recut it and polished it and that improved things. The barrel was full of mico-machine hickies and when smoothed and polished also reduced leading.

Now to your handloading issues. Your original bullet was way, way to hard. There is not need to water drop sixgun bullets ever! These rock hard bullets won't obturate will will lead like a mutha if the least bit undersize. Air cooled wheel weight or softer is the way to go for bullets in your velocity range up to about 1.2K fps.

.432 cylinder throats is right for Smiths of this vintage. Both of mine ran .432. I had RCBS make me a custom sizing die in .432 and found a mold that cast this size or larger.

I don't know what to tell you about those Lee dies that screw up your bullet diamter other than throw them in the trash and get a quality set of dies. The first two sets of Lee pistol dies I owned back in the late 70s were both bad. I never bought a third set. Some folks swear by Lee equipment and others (like me) swear at it.

I am a pretty experienced hand at sixgun reloading and can cure almost any sixgun of leading. But, those two 24s never could be brought to heel to my satisfaction. I reduced leading 75% but never could get that last bit out unless I used gas check bullets. I tried every trick in the deck.

I have too many other fine sixguns to keep a pair of "also rans" in the fleet, so I sold those down river and have never regreted doing so.

Smith and Wesson managed to get their act together in the Mid-80s. In 1989 I bought a new 5" 629 Classic. What a sixgun. The cylinder throats are a uniform .430 as the barrel is .429. It will shoot any and all cast bullets at speeds from 700 to 1,400 fps with outstanding accuracy and zero leading. Providing of course the bullets are right for the pressures. With such a sixgun, those sorry 624s are never mourned.

[462]

Bass Ackward, all the cylinders and barrel are throughly cleaned after each shooting and any leading is completely removed. Cylinder throats are like mirrors, and there aren't any signs of tool marks. The gun has seen jacketed, but not many.

Chargar, the 624 was made in '85. I have a 3" Lew Horton Model 24 that was made in '85, too. Both guns have .432" cylinders.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward, all the cylinders and barrel are throughly cleaned after each shooting and any leading is completely removed. Cylinder throats are like mirrors, and there aren't any signs of tool marks. The gun has seen jacketed, but not many.





No offense intended. After shooting soft PB, takes me two weeks to soak and scrub every day until that little ramp is lead free. Just checked one of my clean guns after lecturing you, and danged if some of it ain't in my own 44. Soaking it now as a matter of fact.

I say don't worry about it. Your home free. Your light years ahead of where you were. Just shoot it until the accuracy leaves or you stop having fun and then clean it. Few thousand rounds later and it will eventually sort itself out.

[Char-Gar]

Yep..those are the lousy 44s I was talking about. I just had my dates off a few years. I had one of those 3" Lew Horton 24s as well and it was the same story as the others. Just a poorly made pistol. BTW..You can't see the micro-burrs in the bore, but that doesn't mean they are not there.

What I did with the 6.5 24 was fire 200 rounds of jacketed bullets as fast as I could load and fire. Then wearing gloves as the pistol is very hot, I flooded the bore with Shooters Choice and gave it 200 strokes (back and forth equals one stroke) with a new brass brush.

Back home I put the pistol in a vise and using tight patches and Semichrome metal polished, worked over the bore for a couple of hours or until it felt like my arms were falling off.

A pistol so treated will have a smooth barrel with a mirror polish.

I have a last year production K-38 that was the worse leader I have ever owned. I did the above and you can't get it to lead any more and the clean up is very short.

[462]

WE DID IT, GUYS!

A load consisting of air-cooled, 100% wheel weights, dropping about .434" and sized to .433", over 11.4 grains of 2400 does not lead. Not a trace of it anywhere. Now, I'll work on accuracy loads, though this is not one to be disregarded.

Lessons learned:
1. Make sure the boolit is at least .001" larger than cylinder throat size. Just slugging the bore will leave you open to problems.
2. Water-quenched boolits are not required for low to mid-range velocities.
3. Mould lapping and beagling do work to increase boolit diameter, and a slightly out of round boolit is okay.
4. Though the experience gained by years of reloading jacketed bullets may be helpful, when it comes to boolit casting and shooting, it is a unique and humbling process with a myriad of nuances.
5. Rather than getting frustrated over poor results initially, press on and experiment to eliminate all those nuances.
6. This last one was a stumbling block for me: Don't be afraid to ask for help -- especially from this group of people. Though their suggestions and advise may not be the answer to your particular situation, it is offered with the best of intentions because it has worked for them and others. File it all away, because, someday, that advise or suggestion may be the solution you're looking for.

Thanks, again, to all of you for putting up with me and for your gracious help. I'm glad I joined this forum, and look forward to helping others, just as I've been helped.

[outdoorfan]

WE DID IT, GUYS!

A load consisting of air-cooled, 100% wheel weights, dropping about .434" and sized to .433", over 11.4 grains of 2400 does not lead. Not a trace of it anywhere. Now, I'll work on accuracy loads, though this is not one to be disregarded.

Lessons learned:
1. Make sure the boolit is at least .001" larger than cylinder throat size. Just slugging the bore will leave you open to problems.
2. Water-quenched boolits are not required for low to mid-range velocities.
3. Mould lapping and beagling do work to increase boolit diameter, and a slightly out of round boolit is okay.
4. Though the experience gained by years of reloading jacketed bullets may be helpful, when it comes to boolit casting and shooting, it is a unique and humbling process with a myriad of nuances.
5. Rather than getting frustrated over poor results initially, press on and experiment to eliminate all those nuances.
6. This last one was a stumbling block for me: Don't be afraid to ask for help -- especially from this group of people. Though their suggestions and advise may not be the answer to your particular situation, it is offered with the best of intentions because it has worked for them and others. File it all away, because, someday, that advise or suggestion may be the solution you're looking for.

Thanks, again, to all of you for putting up with me and for your gracious help. I'm glad I joined this forum, and look forward to helping others, just as I've been helped.

On the cylinder throat size, I think the boolit should fit the throats, pushing through with light pressure applied. The throats need to be at least .001 larger than the bore.

[462]

outdoorfan, as I mentioned in the beginning, the cylinder throats pin gauged .432" and the bore slugged .430 inches.

A .434" round chambers too tightly for my comfort. A .433" boolit works perfectly.

[mtgrs737]

Sounds like your leading problem is solved! Good work! Others will benifit from this thread!

[outdoorfan]

outdoorfan, as I mentioned in the beginning, the cylinder throats pin gauged .432" and the bore slugged .430 inches.

A .434" round chambers too tightly for my comfort. A .433" boolit works perfectly.

Interesting!

[462]

outdoorfan, keep in mind that this is a .44 Special for which jacketed are sized to .429" and cast usually no larger than .431. In fact, the largest lube/sizing die is .431.