Have We Come Full Circle

[beagle]

I was reading an article last night in the last issue of the Fouling Shot by Frank Marshall. Old Duke's gone but the reprints of his articles and letters are very informative and I was researching the .32-40 and .32 Special and one of the loads he was discussing was a 1400 FPS load in the .32 Special using Unique.

5 years ago, if this discussion had come up on Shooters, the author would have been run off the board for using a powder that fast for a recommended hunting load. You just don't use fast powders like that was the current thought.

When I was starting out in casting and reloading, I used a LOT of Unique and Bullseye because it was cheap and worked. Maybe along about deer season, if I was flush, a box of Sierra 180 grain bullets and a can of some IMR selection would be purchased. If I was down, a can of Hodgdon's milsurp 4831 made do for that year and everything was fine.

I'm starting to see a trend again in powder use along these same lines. I know that with a can of IMR running at $20+ with taxes, I sure don't burn it as much in the .375 H & H as I once did.

The bad thing is the milsurp powders are drying up also.

With the current trend in powder prices, I think we'll see cast bullet shooters thoughts run full circle and come back to the old Hercules/Alliant powders here in the near future and we'll see the old favorites like Herco, Unique, 2400 and Blue Dot become very popular again as that's all some of the younger and older shooters can afford to shoot a lot of.

Now, I'm not destitute but I know I'll be shooting a lot of these powders in the future. That's the beauty of casting bullets. You can survive and still shoot as much as you'd like to./beagle

[45 2.1]

beagle-
The use of Unique never has gone out of style for me. I started with it in 1968 and haven't quite using it yet. It has given me superb accuracy in alot of the milsurps. I don't shoot it in 22 cal. or the 4570 and above. You can get a 200 gr. bullet to 1500 fps and truth be told, thats about all you need.

[Maven]

I too have been reading & rereading Marshall's articles with greater interest than before. His advocacy of 13gr. Unique in the .45-70, for example, is well-founded as it makes one ragged hole @ 50 yds. with CB's from 345 to 470gr. from my Microgroove Marlin #336. Since I discovered milsurp WC 820, I've been using it almost exclusively in almost all of my rifle cals. except the .45-70. Beagle's right, judicious doses of pistol powders in rifle cartridges are accurate and easy on both the shoulder and wallet too. ...Maven

[JohnH]

There was a time when rifles in chamberings like 218 Bee, 25-20 and 32-20 were fairly common place. Seems that as the world has changed and shooting has become a hunting oriented activity, small cases that thrive on little doses of powder have become nearly extinct. When you do find something like this, folks want a small fortune for it.

Times have changed in other ways too. I imagine a lot of casters cut their teeth on one rifle, and that rifle had to do it all. It had to plink, small game hunt and be the big game rifle too. Nowadays the solution seems to be get another gun.

15 years ago I was one of the range officers at the local shooting club. Sunday from 1:00 to dark was spent at the range. the people I met by and large were NOT shooters. In the time I spent behind a gun shop counter, I learned real quick to keep my ideas to myself. Folks were far too interested in the latest ultraearsplittenloudenpoppermagnumpoopershooter to even begin to have a discussion of the finer points of near subsonic 30-06 loads using UniQ

Last time I was at the gunshop, a young fella was buying himself a 12 guage magnum for turkey huntin'. He was quite concerned about the recoil it would make using 2 ounce shot loads. I asked him what he deer hunted with.....A bolt rifle in 300 WinMag, used 180's as 150's ruined too much meat. Why do I ask he says.......I figured continuing the conversation would waste his time and mine, He bought the 2 ounce shot loads, I didn't object.

Recently on another forum there was much discussion of how to blow up your 223 using Blue Dot. It was obvious that those in the discussion were operating way outside the envelope without a basic understanding of the relationship of velocity, pressure and what makes a fast powder fast. Hell of a way to get educated. I'm not surprised that Lyman didn't publish any pistol powder loads for rifles in their 48th Edition Manual. Sad.

I don't know if we are coming full circle or not, gives me an idea for a survey though.......

[slughammer]

Always done pistol boolits, but rifle loading of cast boolits has just started for me (since I've been corrupted by youse guys). The use of 2400 in the 30-06 seems like a great extension, because I allready have it on hand. Now I'm buying a 30-30 (Savage 340) and I'm wondering how I'll make out with pistol powders. Seems with the smaller case I'll have to use slower powders with my Air Cooled Wheel Weights to stay within the pressure limits of the Boolit.

Now I find myself looking at 30 grains of a slower powder instead of 18gr of 2400. I think I'm going the wrong way.

[joeb33050]

We've used Unique and 2400 and some Blue/Red/Green/Teal Dot in rifles with lead bullets for 45 years. Yesterday I shot my C. Sharps with 15/Unique, Ohaus 45-405 bullet about 430 grains and it did just fine-one 5-shot 100 yard group of 1.3". But. Best accuracy for me in 45-70 has always been with SR4759. Best 30/30 accuracy with AA#9. Best 32-35 or 32-40 with AA#9 or IMR4227. Best HV accuracy with IMR4895 or slower in the 308 and 30-06, although I don't shoot HV now.
Unique works from Hornet to 45-70, from 32 S&W to 44 Magnum. It almost always does well, almost never is the most accurate. Same for 2400 and some Blue/Red/Green/Teal Dot.
joe b.

[shooter2]

Unique is a classic for sure. I think I've tried it in just about every cast bullet gun I own. It has a tendancy to peak fast, but if you stay away from the "faster is better" illness, then it shoots just fine. In our 9mm semi autos it is the most accurate. It's close with the .45 ACP, but Bullseye is still my favorite there. I think I have just two pounds left of the Hercules version of my big buy some years ago. Same with Bullseye. In Rifles, it's a good powder for short range loads. Perhaps the best of many choices. It's been around for over a hundred years for good reason. The new, cleaner, version should be even better.

[imashooter2]

Always done pistol boolits, but rifle loading of cast boolits has just started for me (since I've been corrupted by youse guys). The use of 2400 in the 30-06 seems like a great extension, because I allready have it on hand. Now I'm buying a 30-30 (Savage 340) and I'm wondering how I'll make out with pistol powders. Seems with the smaller case I'll have to use slower powders with my Air Cooled Wheel Weights to stay within the pressure limits of the Boolit.

Now I find myself looking at 30 grains of a slower powder instead of 18gr of 2400. I think I'm going the wrong way.

14 grains of 2400 worked great in my Marlin 30AS. Should do even better in your Savage.

[45 2.1]

Now I'm buying a 30-30 (Savage 340) and I'm wondering how I'll make out with pistol powders.

I've had very good luck with Unique (1 1/8" at 100 yds over the irons) in this rifle. Currently i'm using the Lyman 311241 cast about 8 BHN with a Freecheck and a book maximum load of Unique. Unique usually produces excellent accuracy at the top of its working range

[Willbird]

We have went full circle many times since Phil Sharpe listed 2400 loads for almost every rifle and pistol caliber, back between the world wars

Bill

[beagle]

slughammer....For the last 10 years or so, I've also been going the other way as well and that works. Problem is that it gets kind of expensive with today's powder prices.

We're starting to get back into the same situation as we had when I first started casting in the late 50s. Little money with a great desire to shoot.

My first few years were with a Springfield, a 311291 mould and 10.2 grains of Unique loads. A little oinch of money went a long way.

I shot a lot and had fun and it worked.

It looks as if more people are going that route again which isn't a bad thing as we normally don't have the need for the gollygeewhizhighspeedlowdrag velocities that casters are trying to get out of their load.

But, I'm not throwing rocks here; to each his own./beagle

[NVcurmudgeon]

One consideration in the full circle question is the age of posters on this board. Reading between the lines, there seems to be a high proportion of crusty middle-aged to old shooters on this forum. When I make the annual pilgrimage to Winnemucca I fit right in, everybody looks like they could have voted for Richard Nixon, if not in 1960, certainly in 1972. I did succumb to the lure of belted Magnums forty years ago, but today I'm almost immune to the latest and greatest. I do have a .260 Remington, but the next newest cartridge in my collection is the .35 Whelen, which goes back about 75 years. I believe the young 'uns don't cast. They are too busy running jillions of cheap .223 and 7.62 x 39 through their Matells and Matelloviches, or sighting in the latest rimless Magnum for deer season. Give them twenty or thirty years and they'll rediscover the .30/06 and the joys of galena.

[imashooter2]

-snip-
I believe the young 'uns don't cast. They are too busy running jillions of cheap .223 and 7.62 x 39 through their Matells and Matelloviches, or sighting in the latest rimless Magnum for deer season. Give them twenty or thirty years and they'll rediscover the .30/06 and the joys of galena.

Hey! There's a lot to be said for running jillions of cheap .223 through your Mattel!

[carpetman]

I too started out using Unique and I still do. Beagle is correct,for few bucks you could do a bunch of shooting. For ten bucks you could shoot all day and that would be a more expensive day than most. Same time frame,that same $10 worth would have been well over $100 in store bought ammo. In .357 mag for example, 7 grs of Unique is close to the top. 1000 rounds per pound-- powder was $3.50 per pound . Primers were about .69 a hundred so 1,000 was $6.90. The primer was the most expensive component of a .357 mag round as I got wheel weights free.

[XBT]

I started out with cast bullets in a bit of a vacuum. There wasn’t a lot of information out there, and much of what I found was dated. I eventually learned the “dated” information was mostly valid.

There were no boards like this one, which provides an extremely valuable forum for the exchange of information. The general level of cast bullet expertise on this board impresses me greatly.

After some experimentation I settled on Unique for most handgun loads and 2400 for most rifle loads. The rifles are mostly military surplus bolt actions.

I don’t ask too much of my cast bullets, but I want accuracy at least equal to typical ball loads. I’ve found that’s easy to achieve at moderate velocities (1700-1800 fps).

For my needs the faster powders work fine.

Jim

[slughammer]

slughammer....For the last 10 years or so, I've also been going the other way as well and that works. Problem is that it gets kind of expensive with today's powder prices.


One of the reasons I've been a pistola shooter and reloader is the cost of reproducing factory rifle ammo. I may have gotten lucky, but my 7600 would put 3 shots into an 1" at 100 with Remington core lokts. I had 30-06 dies as part of a box purchase, but could never justify the money for powders and jacketed bullets to experiment with because I had such a good shooting factory load. Here in PA, I practice and compete with a handgun, shoot squirrels with a 22 and a box of 30-06 last a Long Long time.

I really like this board, lots of you guys have a bunch of rifles and shoot them a bunch. I'm that way with handguns. I bought my 30-06 at about 18-19 and that's been it for deer rifles. When I told my father I was getting the Savage 340, the look on his face said ???? and then he asked if it was for my kids. Gotta love it, I know most of you had fathers that were the same way. I remember one season we hunted deer he had his 760 Carbine in 270, my older brother had his pump 12 gauge and I had my 20 gauge single shot. After my dad filled his tag, my brother got the rifle and I got to carry the 12 bore pump. Doe season came and my brother got one in the morning then I got to use the rifle and I got a doe in the afternoon.

We did shoot a BUNCH of bb's, pellets and ocasionally 22's as a treat. So, no doubt I was raised in an environment that lead me to this alternative lifestyle. I'm probably one of the young ones here on the board; but looking at the prices of jacketed components, I'm not the only one.

[JohnH]

One of the reasons I've been a pistola shooter and reloader is the cost of reproducing factory rifle ammo.

My favorite rifles are in pistol chamberings, a 357 Maximum and a 44 Magnum. Not only do I plink with 'em but I tote 'em into the woods too. To date these two rilfes have put 5 deer in my freezer, two from the 44 were with cast bullets. A cast bullet from my 45-70 filled the freezer this year, i"m hoping to do the same with a 38-55 next season. I don't know that I'll ever buy another jacketed bullet, I can't tell what spending that money is doing for me. Lots of deer are taken each year with cast in the 30-30, that 340 may open a door you've only imagined. By the way, all my plinking with these rifles is done with a milsurp powder very like Blue Dot, www.gibrass.com #107

[JohnH]

One of the reasons I've been a pistola shooter and reloader is the cost of reproducing factory rifle ammo.

My favorite rifles are in pistol chamberings, a 357 Maximum and a 44 Magnum. Not only do I plink with 'em but I tote 'em into the woods too. To date these two rilfes have put 5 deer in my freezer, two from the 44 were with cast bullets. A cast bullet from my 45-70 filled the freezer this year, i"m hoping to do the same with a 38-55 next season. I don't know that I'll ever buy another jacketed bullet, I can't tell what spending that money is doing for me. Lots of deer are taken each year with cast in the 30-30, that 340 may open a door you've only imagined. By the way, all my plinking with these rifles is done with a milsurp powder very like Blue Dot, it canbe found at gibrass as #107

[NVcurmudgeon]

Hey! There's a lot to be said for running jillions of cheap .223 through your Mattel!

Absolutely! But those who are into firepower tend to edge away after they find out I am shooting lead, slowly, and at low velocity. Give them a few years and they may become enlightened like us.

[BLTsandwedge1]

Slughammer,

What part of SE PA? I'm originally from Lancaster, my wife from Ephrata.

Regards...............

[Paul B]

I guess you could say I've come full circle. More years gone than I care to think about, but 50 years ago, I started casting for a .38 Spl. and loading them with a Lyman 310 tong tool. Powder was weighed with a Pacific scale that you adjusted my turning two knurled ricked and using weights. When they balanced out, the scale was good to go. I still have that scale, although it's never used. I tried the weights that were given to set it up on an electronic scale and they were nowhere near reality. Some were much heavier than marked and some much lighter. Explains why some of those loads ened up being so hot. Powder of choice was Bullseye.
When I acquired a Model 94 in 30-30, the Lyman #311291 was the bullet. Full power loads were easy to produce with IMR-3031, and light loads with Unique.
Now, some 50 years down the road, a lot of lead has flown downrange. That cast bullet load has accounted for 17 deer, IIRC, and many targets with closely spaced holes.
Most of the time now, I shoot the .308 Win. with one of a dozen molds I have in 30 caliber, with the 30-06 following closely behind. In those two cartridges, I use either 25.0 gr. of H-4895 or 17.0 gr. of Alliant #2400. In the 06, that 17.0 gr. #2400 load will just barely topple the 300 meter ram, if I can hit the damn thing. Bullet is Lyman #311334. The 4895 load in the .308 will do 1.5 MOA at 200 yards and about 2.5 MOA at 300 yards if I do my part.
Unique has been, for the most part been relegated to gallery loads. Wether it's the 30-30, .308 or 30-05, 5.0 gr. of Unique and a 110-12- gr. cast bullet. Accurate to about 40-50 yards,great plinker and does a number on jack rabbits. That same charge under a 110 gr. cast bullet in the Ruger .30 carbine Blackhawk is quite accurate, has low frecoil, and you can eject the cases without resorting to a sledge hammer to knock them out. I'll probably be trying more loads with Unique down the road in the not very distant future.
Paul B.

[RBak]

PaulB...When you say, "I'll probably be trying more loads with Unique down the road in the not very distant future". That tells me we have not come the "full circle".....yet.

Fifty years ago I knew all there was to know about casting. Fifty years later I realize I haven't even scratched the surface, and I'm now running out of time.

Before the computer came along, about eight years ago for me, I make the same mistakes over and over. A good group was the proverbial pie plate at 100, and anything better was a blessing.
Many folks get the very respected one inch groups almost consistantely nowadays, and that keeps me fired up.

Bass Ackward would throw a fit at some of my groups "before" he gave me a few tips, then it became a whole new game....had to re-learn everything I though I knew, and the cycle goes on.

It's just too much fun, going the whole circle, and I never really want to ever get there.

Russ

[MT Gianni]

I have sucessfully plagarized NV Curmudgeons line of " All we are after is enough energy to get the bullet all the way through the paper target and the backing. Any thing else is wasted. We don't want any bullets left half way out of the cardboard." Try that line out on a few shooters and watch them quietly move away with odd glances until the 1 out of 500 goes "huh, sounds fun". Gianni.

[ammohead]

JohnH,

I have a jug of 107. Care to post some of your favorite loads? If not here over on the reloader forum?

ammohead

[joeb33050]

I have sucessfully plagarized NV Curmudgeons line of " All we are after is enough energy to get the bullet all the way through the paper target and the backing. Any thing else is wasted. We don't want any bullets left half way out of the cardboard."

This is absolutely wrong. I don't understand you people, you just don't get it. At the Old Colony Sportsman's Association in Pembroke MA, we use half inch thick homasote backers, with targets stapled on. For years, since H. M. Pope shot at the range and taught the members the RIGHT way, we've adjusted our loads so that the bullets remain stuck in the homasote after shooting. At the target change, we go down range, pull our bullets out of the homasote and place them in cloth-lined containers, replace the targets and go back to the line. The bullets are perfectly fine, a little grease wiped on and they are reloaded again. The only problem is the occasional hit of a staple, which deforms the bullet slightly. Other than that it works perfectly, and many of us shoot cast bullets every week and haven't had to cast in years.
You Nevada folks need to get with the program.
joe b.

[C1PNR]

"At the Old Colony Sportsman's Association in Pembroke MA, we use half inch thick homasote backers, with targets stapled on. For years, since H. M. Pope shot at the range and taught the members the RIGHT way, we've adjusted our loads so that the bullets remain stuck in the homasote after shooting." joe b.

Hmmmm, Joe, thanks for posting that.

Sure would make it a lot easier for the scorer, too. No need for scoring plugs in all the various diameters. Just go down range and score the target BEFORE pulling the boolits!http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

I've worked for years to develop a load that allows the boolit to drop to the ground immediately after penetrating the target (and corregated cardboard backer). Still a little ways from perfecting it, even today.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

That 1/2" homoginized backing material would give me a LOT of leeway in powder charges. I'm going to put this in a very special "file" I keep of things I see on the Internet.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[Buckshot]

...............I had endeavored to also seek a means to load a load only sufficient to get the slug through the the paper and backer before falling into a bucket placed for the purpose. I found that as the day warmed, the boolits began to land farther and farther away. This required much stooping and bending to pickup these escapees. I had to graduate from a bucket to a hog slopping trough, for the length.

Wind direction would also play a part, as a case of wind in your face would have the boolits bouncing off the target paper. For these conditions I developed a means of utilizing the wife's lipstick on the boolit's nose, so as to at least mark the spot the boolit would have penetrated.

One of my shooting associates had also advanced the theory of "Automatic Return". This via a resiliant material behind the target. Supposedly the bullet was to have returned via the hole it had just made, but in practice it was less precise then hoped for. This caused much conversation and bickering amongst the Rooles Komittee for scoring. Before being abandoned it was found that a Jai-alai racket worked very well for gathering the boolits on the rebound.

The final experiment was "The Wall". A mortered brick structure 1.5'x3'. This worked very well but cut into the number of shooters on any one day due to absenteeism for henia and hemoroid operations, due to carrying our walls from the line to the butts. The 100 yard line was a killer. Besides, the steel toed boots became hot and sweaty in the summer. It was suggested we pool resources to purchase a forklift but the idea never worked out.

.............Buckshot

[BruceB]

What a dedicted and sagacious assemblage we are.

"Full circle" in my case is a laughable concept, because I've discovered that, in my particular case, the trail behind me looks more like the lurchings of a devoted sot who reels along on a totally random course, blown by the winds of fortune and curiosity, not knowing exactly where he's going or when he's going to get there, but certain that another really fine drink awaits somewhere close ahead.

His thirst motivates him, and the search for the next refreshing draught leads ever onward through a wide variety of experiences and tastes. I've followed a LOT of will-o'-the-wisps in this game, and the side trails are at least as much fun as the main road. We'll never "know it all", but it shore is a great pastime.

In the sense that Unique, Bullseye, 2400 and 4350 still see a lot of use, I don't think my trip around the Great Circle ever even got out of the starting gate! Great example of Berra's "Wherever you go, there y'are..."

"Here's to Hell....may the stay there be as much fun as the way there!"