Can a two-groove No4 Lee Enfield shoot cast and/or PP boolits?

[303Guy]

Can a two-groove No4 Lee Enfield shoot cast and/or PP boolits?

My two groove (apparently the UK one) shoots 'J-word' bullets just fine but I've been trying to move forward in time and shoot cast - PB, g/c and PP.The g/c showed some initial promise but failed to deliver. I've been trying PP in it but thought that maybe the problem lay with the boolit size, so I switched to plain g/c. Thing is, the base of the boolit is getting distorted with or without a g/c. Take a look -

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-786F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-568F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-871F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-640F.jpg

[dromia]

What bullet are you using?

I've found Loverins work best in 2 grooves, perhaps all the lube grooves gives the displaced lead somewher to go therefore less boolit deformation.

Never retrieved any so don't know for certain.

[Buckshot]

.............The 2 groove 03-A3 barrels shoot cast just as well as a comparable condition 4 groove military barrel. The barrels with 2 grooves (Remington for the 03-A3) are much tighter then the 4 groove as you might suspect with it's missing 2 grooves. As Dromia suggested, a consequence is lead displacement, and it HAS to go somewhere and rearward is the path of least resistance.

Lyman had a couple designs specificly for the military 2 groove barrels. Both were excellent examples of the 'Bore Riding' genre as in the 2 groovers, there is plenty of bore to guide on :-). I will admit to being pretty ignorant of the SMLE 2 groove barrel dimensions.

..............Buckshot

[303Guy]

I'm using my own creations. These are grooveless, with or without gas checks and with or without a paper patch.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-745F.jpg

This would be one of the heavier ones.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-503F.jpg

Results from a five-groove rifle.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg

I did not think of the Loverins. Thanks for that! (Of course, I will not be able to make my own mould for those - not my 'normal' way anyhow). The five groove is great for this sort of thing but my two-groove is my go-to rifle and that's the one I want to use cast boolits for hunting with.

[jdgabbard]

303Guy, I will say, while I'm stupid to the subject, that is awesome expansion you got going on there!!!

[303Guy]

... awesome expansion ...This is one of my favourites.http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-644F.jpg

I've no idea how this would translate on live animals but I'm guessing not much would survive one of these!:mrgreen:

... the SMLE 2 groove barrel dimensions.
OK, there were two Lee Enfields of note - the SMLE which was the NoI MkIII and the No4 in its various marks. Many of the No4's were made in Canada and the US (Longbranch and Savage were two makers). It was the No4 that sometimes had the two-groove barrel. (The P14 also sometimes had two-grooves, I am led to believe). The groove and bore dimensions were the same as for the five-groove but the grooves were narrower on the UK made barrels (or so I read).

Well, I happen to have a Lee mould that casts 180gr bore riding boolits with g/c rebate. I still have a box of them so I might try PP'ing them to see. (They were hopeless in my MkI - pre-SMLE).

[pdawg_shooter]

What bullet are you using?

I've found Loverins work best in 2 grooves, perhaps all the lube grooves gives the displaced lead somewher to go therefore less boolit deformation.

Never retrieved any so don't know for certain.

IMHO Loverin design bullets work best in all barrels. They are the easiest to get to shoot, lubed or paper patched of any bullet I have tried. Its a shame the mould manufactures have quit making most of them!

[303Guy]

Loverin design bullets work best in all barrels.Well then, perhaps it's time I made a split mould in that style. In the meantime, all I can do is use a smaller shank diameter boolit and Paper patch them. I'll try those Lee boolits without g/c's.

Thanks for the help.

[leftiye]

For those that can't find a loverin design (I find them on evil bay) - and don't make their own, a comparable mold can be designed and ordered through Mountain Molds. I just flashed on the idea of a mountain design (they have shallower grooves that the older molds from lyman do) with a full body of grooves for paper patching while reading this. Such a design would probly be outstanding lubed and naked too. Plus you would have a meplat (a rare form of heart disease IIRC - lol).

[Hang Fire]

IMHO Loverin design bullets work best in all barrels. They are the easiest to get to shoot, lubed or paper patched of any bullet I have tried. Its a shame the mould manufactures have quit making most of them!

Ditto on that, I have a dc Lyman 311467 177 grain and it is excellent in all my .30 calibers. I just have to single it through the Stevens 325 30-30 BA as it is too long to feed and don't want the GC down below the neck. Been looking a while for a 311466 152 grain mold, but no luck so far.

[303Guy]

Thanks again. I put one of those Lee bullets down the bore and would you believe it gas cut? Have a look.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-886F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-887F-1.jpg

There is not much left of the other 'groove' but it didn't flame cut. (Bearing in mind that it is supposed to be a ridge!)

[curator]

I have several 2-groove Lee Enfields, LongBranch and Savage/Stevens No.4Mk1*s. I had the devil of a time getting them to shoot cast with key-holes, leading and poor accuracy. I found this article on Steve Regwell's web site:www.303british.com. He has a lot of reloading and accuracy information on it. This one is about cast bullets: http://www.303british.com/id37.html

He has the same problem with 2-groove barrels and solves it using various fillers. Judging from your experience, I think you might try some of his methods. My 2-groove bores measure about .303 (land) and .318 (groove) That must displace a lot of lead when the bullet enters the bore. Our 2-groove barrels have much narrower grooves (.010 wide) than the '03-A3 Spring field barrels (.030). So Lee Enfield 2-groove barrels are 20% groove and 80% land diameter as opposed to the 03-A3s 60% groove and 40% land. Basically, what works in one doesn't work in the other.

I believe the most difficult thing to overcome with cast bullets in the 2-Groove Lee Enfield is the displacement of lead and the initial sealing of the bore from hot gas before the bullet obturates sufficiently. Fillers and the correct bullet design do this. Tightly packed against the bullet base, fillers prevent the base deformation resulting from the massive deformation of the bullet (.314 diameter) squeezing into the .303 diameter bore. Filler also prevents hot gas from escaping down the deep grooves and melting lead off the sides of the bullet. This melted lead is then deposited in the bore and the bullet runs over it degrading accuracy.

[303Guy]

Thanks for the reply and the link, curator.

It seems I am on the tight track.


"Sometimes you can get lucky and find that the proper size bullet is a snug fit using an unsized fired case. As long as a cartridge so assembled can chamber easily (there is some spring-back with most brass cases after firing) there is no reason it has to be resized in order to reload it."
"If possible the bullets should also fit (or be no more than .001 under throat diameter) and fill the throat. The bullet should also make contact with the beginning of the rifling when the bolt is fully closed."
I have found the PP technique to fill the throat and just squeeze into the neck and touch the rifling leade.

Now here's the rub.

" ... and delivered into the rifling without deformation." I have detected what looks like bullet obturation between the neck and the leade. I have also got one sample that looks like it might have bent before leaving the case! Hard to say as it could have bent in the catch rags. These two oddities were with a very small charge!!?? It could have been the patch that caused the appearances. I can't say for sure. The apparent 'obturation' was between the neck area and the leade area of the boolit shank.