Okay

[6pt-sika]

Okay four months ago I did not own a Contemporary Flintlock !

Now I have a nice 45 caliber Dickert , a nice 50 caliber Virginia and a nice 54 caliber Isac Haines .

I am on Al Edge's list to make me a 40 caliber Sheetz rifle sometime next year .

And I already have a nice original caplock 36 caliber made by A.B. Smith of western PA back about 1830-1840 .

So now I'm having thoughts of another flint longrifle in 58 caliber :!:

Don't really need the 58 but just kinda want one now ! I'm sure it won't do anything in the deer woods that my 54 won't and possibly not anything that my 50 won't . But as some folks say there is comfort in stuff ;)

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have only 54 and up in Flinters. With the realistic ranges I actually shoot I think I would go smooth bore 62. I hunt ditches & river bottoms so seldom see anything beyond 50 yards and I can hit out to that range if I can get good footing and relax a second. But mostly I shoot 30 yards and less so I normally hunt with about .24-.26 swanshot for those ground hogs and coyotes I see up close.
AS the years go by I understand better why most settlers carried fowlers. With sensible loads they can do everything and under 50 yards easily defend the cabin. I have looked at my RIFLED 58 flinter more than once and thought about a 58 smoothbore.
But for open field hunting the rifling has the advantage. I just do not get out of the woods much and enjoy the close brushy stuff.

[FL-Flinter]

I hunted several years with a .45 flint rifle, everything from small game to WT deer and consistently put meat on the table without issue. Then I upped to a .50 and .54 and finally a .62 flinter simply because I had plans for a northern moose & bear hunt and that was a good excuse to build another one for myself. Plans fell through and I never made the northern hunt but the .62 got some use on PA WT's and it works quite well too. Bigger ball definitely makes a bigger hole and it'll give you more comfort increasing the range provided you're not shy about loading it. Shots over 75yds were rare and the longest was 140'ish and that only because the deer had been wounded minutes earlier by a centerfire smokeless shooter and I didn't want it going off to suffer & waste. A bigger ball doesn't exempt making good shot placement. I have to agree with M-5155 about smooth rifles, with proper load building they can be very accurate shooting and do allow for running ball or shot....it never hurts to have both rifle and smoothbore though.

[northmn]

The smoothbore is really kind of a next step if you have used rifles and want an additional experience. I have used smoothbores for general hunting on and off. With roundball they can get a little flighty. A 4" group at 50 yards does not mean an 8" group at 100. They still are a lot of fun. The Native Americans lived off of the 24 ga (58) Northwest Trade Gun using all sorts of combinations for loads. It seemed to be a weapon of preference as it was a primary trade item during the fur trade. I think more fowlers may have been used than we care to note. Neuman had a book on colonial weapons and a number of very plain muskets were pictured. Smoothbores as a rule were cheaper to make, lighter in weight and more versatile. While not legal, a load of shot placed in the back of the head is quite lethal on deer up close (it has been done but lets not get into this). A lot of folks are now getting turkeys with their fowlers.

Northmn

[6pt-sika]

I have thoughts down the road possibly of getting a "Fowling Piece" that would have been correct in Virginia for the Pre Revolution times .

But I'm not to sure about a smothbore longrifle !

To be honest 4 months ago I had no intention of getting a 54 and certainly had not thought of a 58 . But the last time I was at Al's shop before coming to the Philippines I saw three longrifles he was building in 58 caliber and it's got me thinking !

I like the deer hunting friendly larger calibers [smilie=w:

[waksupi]

I would also suggest a smoothbore 20 gauge. They certainly work for turkey, and I have also taken deer and elk with them.

[RayinNH]

6-pt, did you hit the lottery by chance? :lol: I really like the two you put up pictures of, so much so that I dragged out my longrifle kit I've had since about 1976, with the intention of actually getting it done...Ray

[6pt-sika]

6-pt, did you hit the lottery by chance? :lol: I really like the two you put up pictures of, so much so that I dragged out my longrifle kit I've had since about 1976, with the intention of actually getting it done...Ray

No lottery but I liquidated about 30 of my Marlin rifles and a few other things !

It started out as a semi clearance sale to get money for my present Philippines trip and I got more for what I sold then I expected so I bought 3 flinters , a Para 1911 and a Ruger #1 in 270 Weatherby to give my father for Xmas this year [smilie=1:

I still have about 50 Marlin's left and when I get back home in late june I just might pair the Marlin crop down some more :roll:

Been looking long and hard at the Stag Arms "Stag 7" in 6.8 SPC . That black rifle might just make me a nice 21st century deer rifle with a LEupold 3-9 on top :-D

[Hanshi]

My current favorite for deer is my .45. My next bp is a .62 EA fowler which is on order. It just may replace the .45. Turkey will be the other big game for the smoothy. It just makes sense to have one, IMO.

[StrawHat]

Don't really need the 58 but just kinda want one now ! I'm sure it won't do anything in the deer woods that my 54 won't and possibly not anything that my 50 won't .

6pt-sika,

Wanting one is a good reason. However, they do perform better than anything smaller.

With black powder, all round balls go about the same velocity given a decent charge of powder. So in order to increase the knock down power of a muzzle loading rifle, you need a heavier bullet. The only way to get a heavier bullet with a round ball is a larger bore.

A 50 caliber round ball (.490) weighs 177 grains, a 54 (530) about 225 and a 58 (.570) goes 278 grains yet all can be sent down range at approximatley the same velocity.

I have and use MLers in a variety of calibers from 32 to 69 and the effect on game is noticable as the bore gets bigger. For my own use, 32 - 45 are mostly for small game and vermin, and for deer and larger if it doesn't begin with .5 it isn't going with me. Not to say the 45 can't kill a deer (been there, done that, ate the venison) just that I find the 50 does it better and the 54 more of the same. I have an early Navy Arms version of the 1803 Harpers Ferrry that they made in .58 and it is a great rifle to hunt with.

As for a smoothbore rifle, it can be shown that many if not most of the original long rifles coming out of the colonial shops were smooth bore. Look in the book of Kindig, Bivins or Shumway.

And these are different from the fowling piece as they were meant to be fired with the patched round ball. The fowling piece was for shot and ball.

[northmn]

A good way to start a debate is to get into originals and which were smooth rifles and which were rifles. It gets complicated by the fact that many got smoothed by gunsmiths over time. A major income source was "freshing" barrels. It seems that the Allentown school had more smooth rifles than the others. Essentially a smooth rifle gives little advantage over a rifle as they are built the same and with the same weight. The fowlers are more dynamic handling. Some of the very large bore British guns. like the 10 Bore Taylor used, were smooth as they were easier to clean and reload and for large game like elephants that he shot, had plenty of accuracy. My attitude is that if you are using a smooth bore to shoot nothing but round ball a rifle will do so better. The lighter fowlers and fusils to me make a lot of sense for an all around gun (which none of us likely really needs as we seem to have more guns to choose from than the number of deer we can legaly shoot or utilize)

Northmn

[madcaster]

Okay four months ago I did not own a Contemporary Flintlock !

Now I have a nice 45 caliber Dickert , a nice 50 caliber Virginia and a nice 54 caliber Isac Haines .

I am on Al Edge's list to make me a 40 caliber Sheetz rifle sometime next year .

And I already have a nice original caplock 36 caliber made by A.B. Smith of western PA back about 1830-1840 .

So now I'm having thoughts of another flint longrifle in 58 caliber :!:

Don't really need the 58 but just kinda want one now ! I'm sure it won't do anything in the deer woods that my 54 won't and possibly not anything that my 50 won't . But as some folks say there is comfort in stuff ;)
You know,IF you need anyplace to store these FINE rifled guns I would absolutely beecome a willing and helping hand in the situation![smilie=1::kidding:
Jeff,BR-549....

[RayinNH]

madcaster, you are truly a decent fellow for offering that service :-D...Ray

[6pt-sika]

madcaster, you are truly a decent fellow for offering that service :-D...Ray


My sentiments exactly [smilie=1:

[Jeff H]

....So now I'm having thoughts of another flint longrifle in 58 caliber :!:................

I saw a Leman .58 flinter on Track of the Wolf but it was already sold. That pattern has always appealed to me, as has the .58 caliber. Not exactly a long rifle, but a nice, clean and robust "plains-type" and in what seems a very appropriate caliber.

Jeff H.

[6pt-sika]

I saw a Leman .58 flinter on Track of the Wolf but it was already sold. That pattern has always appealed to me, as has the .58 caliber. Not exactly a long rifle, but a nice, clean and robust "plains-type" and in what seems a very appropriate caliber.

Jeff H.

I was hung up on nice Hawken rifles a fews years ago but never did purchase one !

After hanging out around a Contemporary Gunbuilders shop a couple days I got the itch for flinters from 1750-1810 !

All types of guns with me are like Lay's Potato Chips ! Just one won't do [smilie=1:

[hamour]

6PT-Sika, I have a Jim Chambers Early Virgina Rifle in .58 caliber, it is also available in .62 caliber.

I found that the .58 gave me the best combination of speed, recoil, and bullet mass. The .62 can match the .58 in speed, it exceeds the .58 in bullet mass and recoil!

The .58 is a great caliber and I love mine.

I have a .62 rifle bbl on a T/C Hawken it is a great shooter as well. 1x72 twist

I also have a Green Mountain BBL in .62 smooth bore on a Renegade. I am thinking of using it with wheel weight roundballs and a scope mount as a night time hog killing machine.

Black powder and roundballs have brought a lot of fun back to my hunting.

[Hanshi]

A good way to start a debate is to get into originals and which were smooth rifles and which were rifles. It gets complicated by the fact that many got smoothed by gunsmiths over time. A major income source was "freshing" barrels. It seems that the Allentown school had more smooth rifles than the others. Essentially a smooth rifle gives little advantage over a rifle as they are built the same and with the same weight. The fowlers are more dynamic handling. Some of the very large bore British guns. like the 10 Bore Taylor used, were smooth as they were easier to clean and reload and for large game like elephants that he shot, had plenty of accuracy. My attitude is that if you are using a smooth bore to shoot nothing but round ball a rifle will do so better. The lighter fowlers and fusils to me make a lot of sense for an all around gun (which none of us likely really needs as we seem to have more guns to choose from than the number of deer we can legaly shoot or utilize)

Northmn

That's the reason my next gun will be one of everything!

[6pt-sika]

we seem to have more guns to choose from than the number of deer we can legaly shoot or utilize)

Northmn



In my own situation I hunt Virginia and Maryland ! The bag limits in BOTH states are to say the least very liberal !

And as far as utilization is concerned I process and donate 95% of what I kill to a local food kitchen to be handed out to those that need it !

So most years I kill 12-15 although there have been a few times I reach or come close to 20 ! However ALL is utilized [smilie=1: