30-06 Rem 700 and Win md 70's Cast Shooters?

[PatMarlin]

Anyone shoot Remington 700 or Winchester Mdl 70's with cast in the 30-06?

I'm interesting in moving up to a nicer 30-06 or a .308 but as always cast accuracy is my main concern.

Any other 30-06 comments would be most welcome.. :lovebooli

[waksupi]

Anyone shoot Remington 700 or Winchester Mdl 70's with cast in the 30-06?

I'm interesting in moving up to a nicer 30-06 or a .308 but as always cast accuracy is my main concern.

Any other 30-06 comments would be most welcome.. :lovebooli

I'd suggest going with a .308, as the case capacity is better for cast boolits.

[carpetman]

Pat Marlin---To me the beauty of the .308 is it's short action adapts better to actions other than bolt. The guns you mentioned both being bolt action,I'd go 30-06. If you aren't taking advantage of the short action,why cut yourself short? You can load a 30-06 down to .308--not other way. Having said all that,the .308 will smack deer etc and they won't know the difference if it was .308 or .30-06.

[9.3X62AL]

The real beauty of the 30-06 over the 308 has nothing to do with cast boolit usage, but with its ability to fire 200-220 grain j-words effectively. The 308 doesn't handle them well, and actually starts to lose ground to the 30-06 at the 180 grain bullet weight.

For target shooting, the 308 might have the edge accuracy-wise. For deer hunting, it's a dead heat. For game larger than deer, the 30-06 comes into its own, esp. if 180 grain or heavier bullets figure into the mix--and they should, with animals larger than deer.

I've owned 2 Win 70's in 30-06, both had fairly wide throats (.311") and did all right with cast boolits. I'm just getting under way with the 2nd one, actually a M-670, and early signs are that it likes #311291 with 16.0-20.0 grains of 2400. My next stunt will be to twice-size some of the MM Fat Thirties to .311", and try them in this rifle.

The only 30 caliber Remington bolter I've had was a "Sportsman 78" in 30-06, and it liked #311291 pretty well. Throat was about .309" IIRC, and it also liked Nosler 165 BT's--VERY much. Most 30-06's do. I loaned it to a buddy for a hunting trip he took to CO ~1995 or so, and he came back wanting to buy it. He still has it, and has whacked all sorts of game with it all over the western U.S. I've owned 2 different 700 BDL's in 308, never tried cast in them, but they shot well with just about any 150 or 165 grain bullet I tried.

[Guido4198]

Anyone shoot Remington 700 or Winchester Mdl 70's with cast in the 30-06?

I'm getting great results shooting mild loadings in both the 30/06, and .308 of the Lyman 311467. In my Remington 700's, it seems to help the groups if I seat the bullet out pretty far.
Getting m.o.a. or a little better off sandbags out to 100 yds.
Cheers,
Don

[carpetman]

Dep Al---I wouldn't have a clue as to the .308 or 30-06 with heavier bullets. I have used 150 grain jacketed for hunting exclusively in both of them. Have shot some cast in both just plinking.

[9.3X62AL]

With 150's or 165's, both calibers are pretty much neck-and-neck. When the bullet weight climbs to the 180 grain or heavier, the bigger boiler room holding more slow-burning powder starts carrying the mail a little further.

[ebner glocken]

I've loaded for a model 70 30/06 that liked about any 165-180gr j-words I put throgh it. Tried it with a lee 170 FNGC and it shot great with 2400 sized to .310". Two to three inch groups @100yd was norm with cast. One to two was norm with j-word and imr 4064.

[Maven]

To answer the original question, yes, I use CB's almost exclusively in my Win. Mod. 70 Westerner (blind mag.), .30-06. Powders that work well are WC 820, Alliant (Hercules) 2400, AA5744, H/IMR 4198, AA 2015BR, IMR 3031, WC 860 (mag. primer), and IMR 5010 (mag. primer + grex or cereal filler). Rifles vary with respect to bore diameter and condition and which CB's they shoot best. For me Lyman #311644, Ly. #311466, Saeco #315 have given ~1 m.o.a. accuracy. Oddly enough, Ly. #311291 & #311041 don't perform that well in my '06, but are quite accurate in my 7.5 Swiss and 7.62 x 54R. Although it is no longer produced, Ly. #311644 (195gr.) was designed for the throat/leade/ball seat of [domestically produced] .308Wins. and .30-06's and is worth searching for.

[BruceB]

Until we left the Northwest Territories back in '97, my standard moose load for my 700 .30'06 was the Nosler 200 Partition at a chronographed 2750 fps. It was deadly on moose out to several hundred yards.

I've done a lot of work with this rifle and cast bullets, and it's doing very well. It's had a lot of jacketed bullets down the tube, maybe a couple of thousand or more by now, but still rewards me with some great cast shooting from time to time. I'm at work right now, so I can't cite chapter-and-verse on the loads.

Right now, it's wearing a 36X target scope!

[26Charlie]

Yep, cast shoots great iin my .30-06 M70 Stainless Steel left-hand rifle. Also I have a soft spot in my heart (head?) for Springfield sporters which occasionally appear in the used gun racks for $250 - Springfield count is now at 4, and all of them shoot cast well - from the 100gr. up to the 220 gr. designs. Can't go wrong with a .30-06.
The Savage 111 .30-06 is eqipped with a heavy stainless fluted barrel and a synthetic stock - I put target iron sights on it, beginning to set it up as a National Match Course gun with cast bullets on the reduced range courses (100 yd. and 200 yd.). It also shoots cast very well.

[PatMarlin]

Hay thanks for the thoughts fella's, and please keep em comin'.


The only "kick myself in the rear" gun story I have is the one where my fishing buddy that passed away's Winchester Model 70 30-06 he bought new in 1952. He was like a father to me. His only rifle, and that was all he ever needed. It was like new, with a Leupy on it.

He knew he was going to die, and he was trying to get as much money out of his stuff he could for his wife. He wanted a lot for it, and at the time it would have been real tough, but I could have swung it. I'll regret not buying that rilfe for as long as I live.

So with Winchester going out and all, I thought I'd think about getting a M-70 classic, but those Remingtons look so nice also. I've got all 30-06 brass, dies etc., too.

I really hate buying a condom only shooter.

[Jumptrap]

[QUOTE=PatMarlin]Hay thanks for the thoughts fella's, and please keep em comin'.


The only "kick myself in the rear" gun story I have is the one where my fishing buddy that passed away's Winchester Model 70 30-06 he bought new in 1952. He was like a father to me. His only rifle, and that was all he ever needed. It was like new, with a Leupy on it.

He knew he was going to die, and he was trying to get as much money out of his stuff he could for his wife. He wanted a lot for it, and it would have been real tough, but I could have swung it. I'll regret not buying that rilfe for as long as I live.

Pat,

Once upon a time, long, long ago and far, far away, I had a chance to buy a Browning Safari in 300 H&H, an ancient Redfield mounted and about 14 partial boxes of ammo and brass. It was one of those poor widows trying to sell the dead husbands guns. The gun was fair...not great..as the varnish or laquer finish was spider webbed every bad. What killed the purchase was the price.....I forget what the asking price was, but it was very high even then.....like $750. That doesn't sound like much now, but that was 25+ years ago. I have no regrets walking away from that gun, too much, is too damned much regardless of the circumstances. Chin up and forget about it. I know a man right now, who is like 79 years old and he is ratholing very nickel because he wants to make sure his wife is taken care of when he dies. He told me as it stands right now, he has enough to keep her for 31 years at $1550 a month. She is 81...reckon she'll need all that?

[PatMarlin]

We'll your right Jump.

You know the kinda of guy I'm talking.. my buddy Chuck Kazee.

Kind of like family and just one of those things I guess.

[9.3X62AL]

pat--

Don't overlook the CZ-550 variants in 30-06, there's a lot of rifle there for the money paid. The Savage bolt rifles are a little unrefined--and those Glock-looking triggers REALLY turn me off--but the critters SHOOT. Had a board member not come up with a very good deal on my current Win 670, my 30-06 would likely have been a CZ.

Bruce B--NosPart 200 at 2700 FPS+? Sounds like a good Alberta Load, to me!

[StarMetal]

I have a CZ550 in 30-06...and this one RAY really does shoot holes at 100 yards with cast. I hardly ever shoot it tho anymore.

Joe

[PatMarlin]

Definitely a consideration Al.

I think if I came across a Savage with a real nice stock, maybe stainless and a laminate or something I may be enticed.

Of course I'm a big Howa fan, but who knows. Well my wife would stomp my head if I bought another rifle right now, but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead.. :mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

Wal- how much do ya want for her Joe?.. :mrgreen:

[StarMetal]

I'd be a fool to sell this one. It shoots that Lyman 314299 and 311284 like no tomr plus it has the set trigger for bench work....CZ's integral scope mount system. Basically they are almost identical to a pre-64 Winchester except for the safety and set trigger. The bolt release is even the same and the left bolt lug isn't split either like the Winchester.

Joe

[PatMarlin]

I've got both those molds too.. :mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

Anyone know bout' the Remington Model 700 Mountain DM (detachable magazine) in 30-06?

6 1/2 lbs, 22" bbl- 42" overall. 1 in 10" twist. Sure does look like a nice rifle.

How's the quality if these new 700's nowadays? I haven't got to see one.

[lovedogs]

StarMetal... I've been thinking about the CZ's some myself. What does their barrel look like? Is it nice and smooth or did it need some smoothing up? I hate one that fouls badly so thought I'd ask. Appreciate your appraisal.

[StarMetal]

The barrel is really nice and it has 4 groove rifling. I belive CZ hammer forges them. It was a tad on the fat side, as most new modern rifles in 30-06 and 308 have a pretty much dead on .308 groove diameter. I was alittle upset about that until I shot it. Now I'm happy. Nothing out of the norm for a break in procedure. So far it shoots cast better then jacketed.

Joe

[Chargar]

I have 3 rifles in .308 and 4 in 30-06 and shoot cast in them all and all do well. If I had to have just one, I would pick a 30-06 because it it longer neck, and ability to use longer/heaver bullets.

On of my 30-06s is a 1954 vintage Model 70 and it does very well with cast.

[PatMarlin]

Chargar do you know if the new model 70's have the same rifling as your old model 70?

[Chargar]

Pat.... I don't know if there has been any change in rifling Winchester uses over the years. I would guess there has been some change in manufacturing process if not in the style and dimensions of the rifling.

I have never found a 30-06 that would not do well with cast and I have used: Winchester 1917, Remington (4 groove) 03A3, Smith- Corona 03A3 (4 groove), Springfield 03 with a 1932 SA 4 groove barrel, Winchester 70 (1954), Ruger No. 1, Savage 110 and a custom Springfield with a 1-14 6 groove Phiefer barrel.

They have all done well for me. If the truth be know, I have nothing but good luck with 30-06s of all kinds with both condom and lead bullets for over 45 years.

The January 1947 issues of The American Rifleman carried an article by Townsend Whelen entitled "The 30-06 Is Never A Mistake!". That was true 56 years ago when Whelen penned the article and it is still true today.

[PatMarlin]

Pointers respectfully noted.

I think it's probably safe to say that even the latest mod 70's are not as fine a rifle as your vintage rifle Charles.

I've already got so much invested in 30-06, over 1000 brass, and everything else.

[StarMetal]

Q
How are the Model 70 rifle barrels formed? A
As with the rifle offerings of most major rifle brands, the Winchester Model 70 line offers models with barrels formed from Chrome Molybdenum or Stainless Steel. Chrome Moly barrels afford a classic, blued look to a rifle, which both traditionalists and many hunters may prefer to the silvered appearance of stainless barrels. On the other hand, high corrosion resistance makes a Model 70 with a stainless steel barrel an excellent choice for shooters living in or frequently hunting in high humidity climates. Because Chrome Moly steel is more malleable than stainless steel, it enables U. S. Repeating Arms Co. to use the rotary hammer forging process to form the rifling in most Chrome Moly Model 70 barrels. In this method a Tungsten Carbide mandrel, containing the rifling in high relief, is inserted into the drilled and reamed barrel blank. Opposing hammer forces progressively form the blank over the mandrel with the result of molding and replicating the rifling on the mandrel into the bore. Hammer forging is an excellent method to insure rifling consistency and identical twist rate from barrel to barrel. All Model 70 models with Chrome Moly barrels, except the heavy magnum Safari calibers from 375 H & H Magnum on up, are hammer forged.

All Model 70 stainless steel barrels, as well as the heavy magnum Chrome Moly barrels mentioned above, are button rifled. After boring and reaming the blank, a Tungsten Carbide button attached to a high tensile steel rod, is pushed through the barrel. As the button travels through the bore, it is precisely rotated to produce the correct rate of twist for the specific caliber being rifled. Lands on the button engrave grooves into the bore.

Both rifling processes are capable of producing a very high degree of accuracy in a rifle barrel. One should, however, recognize that there are many additional factors such as action type, bedding method, tool tolerance maintenance, variations of steel hardness among individual blanks, and many other factors that can contribute to accuracy. U. S. Repeating Arms Co. employs skilled gunsmiths and frequent inspection of materials and tolerances at every stage of the manufacture of your Model 70 Winchester rifle to produce the accuracy this respected rifle is noted for.


So I would say NO...they aren't the same. I would bet the early Model 70 barrels had cut rifling.

Joe

[45 2.1]

I've already got so much invested in 30-06, over 1000 brass, and everything else.

Actually Pat, it looks like your just getting started good.

[PatMarlin]

What's your favorite cast boolit design for the '06, 45 2.1..?

[Chargar]

Joe.... The pre-64 model 70 barrels were indeed cut rifled with a broach and not a single point cutter. There are not of the quality of a Krieger or Obermyer, but they are good quality barrels.

Accuracy expectations have changed since 1964. The Featherweights could turn in MOA accuracy with loads they liked. the Standardweights ran a little larger, but could with a little tweaking could be MOA rifles.

Seems like today, folks expect their hunting rifles to turn in .5 MOA accuracy. I don't see the need for that in a hunting rifle.

I remember when Mike Walker brought out the Remington 40XB in .222 it was the first true half inch factory rifle. I hocked my soul to get one in 1965 and while I could never get consistant half inch groups, it would do .65 with any factory ammo around. What a rifle? Could hardly believe how good it shot.

[45 2.1]

What's your favorite cast boolit design for the '06, 45 2.1..?

Depends on the rifle, some take the RCBS- 308-165-SIL, others take the Lyman 311299, some the GB 311407, and then there is the 311284 for burnt throated rifles. It just depends on the individual boolit fit. My favorite for the rifle is the one which gives me the accuracy I want out of it, which is considerable.

[Paul B]

The real beauty of the 30-06 over the 308 has nothing to do with cast boolit usage, but with its ability to fire 200-220 grain j-words effectively. The 308 doesn't handle them well, and actually starts to lose ground to the 30-06 at the 180 grain bullet weight.

For target shooting, the 308 might have the edge accuracy-wise. For deer hunting, it's a dead heat. For game larger than deer, the 30-06 comes into its own, esp. if 180 grain or heavier bullets figure into the mix--and they should, with animals larger than deer.

I've owned 2 Win 70's in 30-06, both had fairly wide throats (.311") and did all right with cast boolits. I'm just getting under way with the 2nd one, actually a M-670, and early signs are that it likes #311291 with 16.0-20.0 grains of 2400. My next stunt will be to twice-size some of the MM Fat Thirties to .311", and try them in this rifle.

The only 30 caliber Remington bolter I've had was a "Sportsman 78" in 30-06, and it liked #311291 pretty well. Throat was about .309" IIRC, and it also liked Nosler 165 BT's--VERY much. Most 30-06's do. I loaned it to a buddy for a hunting trip he took to CO ~1995 or so, and he came back wanting to buy it. He still has it, and has whacked all sorts of game with it all over the western U.S. I've owned 2 different 700 BDL's in 308, never tried cast in them, but they shot well with just about any 150 or 165 grain bullet I tried.

Al. Permit me to disagree with you on one point. I don't know where the thought that a .308 won't handle the heavier bullets comes from but in my experience, that just plain hogwash. The factory advertised 220 gr. load for the 30-06 is 2400 FPS. depending on the rifle, in this case a Winchester Model 70 in .308, I have pushed 220 gr. Sierra round nosed bullets to 2300 FPS with no apparent pressure signs with groups in the .375 to .50" range depending on how well I'm shooting on that particular day.
At one time, the 30-40 Krag was considered a better elk rifle than the 30-06 because bullets back then were not as good as the ones we have now. The Krag gave what, 2000 FPS? Now my Winchester has a 1 in 12" twist barrel which I feel helps to keep pressures down a bit, but even a .308 with a 1 in 10" twist should easily reach 2250 FPS and considering the ranges one would normally use such a bullet, it should work just fine. I know one can load to probably 2500 FPS with a 220 gr. bullet in most 30-06s, and I've reached 2550 FPS in a 26" barreled Ruger #1, but to repeat what most, if not all the "egg-spurts" in the gun rags say? Well you get my point. Rather that put down the idea that the .308 won't do it, get one of the "COMPLETE LOADING MANUAL FOR THE .308 WINCHESTER" books and look at the data for 220 gr. bullets.
I know that in this day of super hot shot magnumitis, 2250-2300 FPS doesn't sound like much but loads in that range killed well way back when and I haven't seem any elk wearing armor plate lately.

To get to the original question though, I have one Remington 700 that shoots cast bullets very well. My Winchester M70 in .308 shoots them even better. On a day where the wind isn't too awfully bad, I can get 1.5 MOA groups at 200 yards with that .308. The Remington is more of a 2 to 2.5 MOA rifle with cast at that range. This is from the bench, of course.
Paul B.

[Newtire]

I have a couple of things to say regarding the 30-06 & cast and Model 70 (1-that I own), not to mention Springfield 03. The .308 will practically do everything the '06 will except for it has just too short of a neck for the longer cast bullets in my opinion. I remember reading how the '06 was second only to the .308 as far as cast bullet shooting goes in an article somewhere & thinking, "Who are they kidding?" I like the fact that both my M70 & my Springfield have a nice long action that lets me seat those big long 311290's out to touch the rifling and still work thru the magazine. The Springfield has such a long throat that it is a disadvantage with shorter bullets like the soup can for me. That M-70 I have likes the 311041 and the 311290, then there is the RCBS 165gr. Silhouette. The barrel on mine is very very smooth and it is a later model "post '64" model but I am not too sure about the difference between the early "post-64's & the late ones. But anyway, I just like the crap out of my M70.

[PatMarlin]

I haven't even got to fire mine yet... not once.. :roll: :mrgreen:

[Bass Ackward]

I haven't even got to fire mine yet... not once.. :roll: :mrgreen:


Pat,

That borders on being sacreligious.

Last week my wife told me she wanted a new load for deer season. She moved her stand to a more open area and wanted a little more velocity than her RL7 load was capable of. So I sat her down at the computer and showed her how to use Quickload and transpose her load information to ask the computer for suggestions and then what to look for in the recommendations.

She played around a bit and then selected RL22 with my 165 grain bullet design which is nothing more than an LBT knockoff with wider lube grooves. 53 grains was supposed to be the load and she loaded 52, 53, and 54. I was so proud that she was taking an interest like this.

Her groups started at 1 1/2" for the 52, 53 came in at about 3/4", and the 54 opened back up to around 1 1/4". None of this was too bad considering she was in the 2200-2300 fps range. When she brought the targets around to show me she was PO'd and asked me what I was holding back because she wanted her groups to look like mine. So I am in the dog house again. :grin:

Her Howa 30-06 does quite well, but it is not as broken in as my 700 yet. You don't know what you are missing until you start with your 06. So what's the excuse?

[felix]

Chargar, that barrel was made by Douglas according to Mike's specs using Mike's button or another one just like it. ... felix

[felix]

Great BA! Now, ask her to pick a powder that would deliver the same accuracy for each powder weight, with three powder weights next to each other like was already done, and load the middle one for production. ... felix

[PatMarlin]

YOU are a lucky dog John to have such a wife.. :drinks:

I've been trying to get my new business launched, so the rifles sit.. :roll: :mrgreen:

[Bass Ackward]

Great BA! Now, ask her to pick a powder that would deliver the same accuracy for each powder weight, with three powder weights next to each other like was already done, and load the middle one for production. ... felix

Felix,

I think she is already about there already considering the groups were soooo close together. Her Howa only has 4, thin rifling that don't offer much in the way of resistance to forward motion compared to my Rem's 6 wider lands. Therefore, I think that the pistol primers that I had her use weren't getting enough ignition.

I think if I remember right, her rifle required rifle primers to get the fire going where mine likes the pistol mags. But if that fails, I have no doubt that the .... search will continue.


Pat, Pat, Pat,

It takes 20 minutes to load and shoot 5 shells. That's a good smoke or bathroom break. Just bite the bullet and skip one of those and make that rifle lose it's virginity. Or stop the every night sex and load shells in that 10 minute interlude. Then you only need 10 minutes during the day to shoot them. You can just cut the smoke or bathroom break a little short as opposed to skipping it all together. If that fails to suit ya, then raise the window in the bathroom and smoke , shoot, and whatever at the same time. Kills three birds .......

Kids! :grin:

[PatMarlin]

Sex.. what's that?

Can UPS ship sex?... :mrgreen:

-and how did you know my bathroom window points down range John? :Fire: :coffee: