2400... WITH Dacron

[BruceB]

I'd be a richer man, if'n I had a dollar for every time someone has said or written "Oh, you don't need dacron with 2400 (or 5744, or Unique, or....).

For years now, it has been my practice to fire ten-round groups when experimenting, and also to fire two such groups with identical loads EXCEPT that one ten-rounder will have no filler added, and the other ten rounds will contain dacron.

Also for years, I've been saying that in SOME loads, dacron fill will yield better results than identical loads without the fluff, even with the quick-burners.

I hasten to add that by saying "dacron fill", I mean about one-half of a grain in cases such as the .303, .30-40 and 7.62 NATO. This is a very low-density tuft, virtually a see-through item. In the last few days, someone inquired whether or not FIVE GRAINS was about right!?!?! Five grains of dacron in a conventional-size case would be a dense mass, and NOT a good idea. I make my tufts by eyeball, five at a time for consistency.

Anyway, last week I took my "new" .303 (1914 manufacture) to the range with a bunch of 2400 loads, half with dacron and half without dacron. The bullets were the GB Lee 316-220, actually weighing 232 grains in my water-dropped WW and sized at .314". The brass was all W-W, primers were Remington 2&1/2, and the loads were as close to identical as possible....except for the presence of dacron in some of them.

The rifle has a Lyman 48 aperture sight and a bead up front.

Nothing of particular note occurred during the early part of the shoot, but when I got to the 18.0 load, the no-dacron load was fired first and gave me a 50-yard 10-shot group of 3.1 inches.
The 18.0 load WITH dacron, fired immediately after the above group (so, with the same light, wind etc) came in at 1.2"......well under ONE HALF the group size of the no-dacron load, and simply because of the presence of half-a-grain (+/-) of dacron fluff.

This is why I fire ten-round groups! A 3-shot or 5-shot group could conceivably fluke a good result. Ten rounds? No siree. Also, the "feeling" of KNOWING a called-good shot will be in the group is quite different from the random un-called wide shots which so often occur with less-than-great loads....such as all the groups I fired that day until the magical 18.0/dacron load.

The question is whether or not it's worth the trouble of installing the filler. In a case such as this, where the group is VASTLY better than the result from the no-dacron load, I'd surely say it's worth the minor additional step. In fact, I loaded 150 rounds with this recipe for the Nevada CB Shoot next week. I also intend to do some more work with this bullet and powder combo, changing the charge in 1/2-grain increments to see if it has any effect.

Even if one's current results with these "don't-need-no-danged-filler" powders are satisfactory, it may well prove worthwhile to do a wee bit of experimentation...there may be a real gain waiting out there.

[Ole]

I have a light load that uses 2400 to propel a 425 ranch dog boolit from my .450 Marlin that uses .5 grain of poly fill. It's one of my favorite plinking loads for that rifle. Very consistent velocity. 1250 average and most shots are between 1245 and 1255 fps. I would say "all", but i've only fired about 15 of these over my chronograph, so I can't say ALL.

:)

[runfiverun]

the majority of my most accurate loads have a fille.,dacron is one i use, but not always the one.

[45r]

I've used wads made from cotton ball tuft's and 4759.They shoot very accurate and cleaner burning also in my 45-70.

[Larry Gibson]

Bruce

What can I say.....I've been telling everyone about the benifits of a dacron filler for some years. I don't use much 2400 in rifles any more and when I did it was mainly with the 30-30 and my testing revelaed the use of the dacron filler really didn't increase accuracy. I was using top end loads so the 2400 was burning efficiently anyways in the smaller case. I alsomost always recommend the dacron filler with the slower "fast' powders such as 4227, 5744, 4198 and 4759 in cases of 30-30 or greater capacity. Of course I'm sure your well aware that i always recommend the dacron filler with the medium and slow powders with 80-85% or less case capacity.

Nothing to add from me except you are right on.

Larry Gibson

[dwtim]

BruceB: no, it's not required. But then neither is accuracy, if you're just plinking to get an idea about the fouling or pressure of a load. My filler-less results (5744) are similar to yours, but generally wider, because I'm in a hurry and using the big aperture.

[largom]

I have found that 1/2 gr. Dacron filler usually cuts my Vel. extreme spreads in half.
Larry

[Baron von Trollwhack]

You are right Bruce. My own experience is similar, except my poor man's dacron is TP and hard down on the powder. BvT

[1Shirt]

I just don't believe in arguring with sucess. Bruce and Larry recommend what I have for the most part used off and on for years. Depends on just plinking or for accuracy. I just would not be without 2400.!
1Shirt!

[Buckshot]

.............Dacron in my old 1893 Marlin chambered 38-55 with 16.0grs 2400 and the 225gr Saeco or 250 gr Lee makes a world of difference over accuracy without.

http://www.fototime.com/D2244CBB5698496/standard.jpg

Marlin group is the left target. Five rounds in an inch at 50 yards, and that's very consistent repeatable shooting. Without the dacron you can add a half inch to an inch, and usually the group would be more vertically spread then round.

.............Buckshot

[dromia]

So what would be the lightest load/case fill% you would use the dacron with Bruce?

[legend]

Bruce,thanks! you most likely ARE "the light at the end of the tunnel"

[JSnover]

A friend of mine turned me on to floral foam for flower arrangements. Olive drab color, sold in blocks at arts/craft stores, hobby shops. I slice it into 1/8" slabs and press it over the case mouth after visually inspecting the powder levels. In a straight-walled case with little or no taper you get a nice snug fit and the stuff is virtually weightless. I've used dacron before with good results but I like the consistency that comes from using a flat sheet.

[Nrut]

Bruce...
How do you insert that small amount of Dacron into your case to insure the Dacron touches both the powder and the boolit base and leaves no airspace between the powder and the boolit?
Is Dacron and polyester the same thing?...I get this blank stare when I ask for Dacron at the two local fabric shops...They do have polyester pillow stuffing and batting for quilts...:)
thanks

[BruceB]

To install the tuft (of "polyester pillow stuffing".....dacron's just a more-convenient trade name), I use a tool such as a blunt screwdriver or large-ish allen key. The tuft should be large enough to fill the APPARENT airspace within the case.

I push the tuft down into the case until the tool can be felt to touch the powder. At this point there should still be some dacron outside the mouth. This excess is then tucked JUST inside the case mouth, and the bullet seated on top of it. This ensures that there is filler material in all the space between bullet base and top of powder. It does NOT have to be densely packed! A low-density tuft will still do an excellent job of immobilizing the powder charge.

The more airspace that exists in the case, the more likely I am to be using the filler. I only say, though, that any such experiments are exactly that....experiments. It may well be that the dacron isn't needed, or may even (rarely) be harmful to the accuracy performance of the load. It's not an absolute thing, merely worth a trial to see if it improves accuracy.

I prefer using the bulk loose-pack stuff, having never seen the utility of making a flat sheet conform to a tubular space. Plenty of folks do prefer the consistency of cutting even-sized squares from the sheets, but I have no trouble in tearing off sufficiently-consistent tufts for my uses.

[aletheuo]

Bruce...
How do you insert that small amount of Dacron into your case to insure the Dacron touches both the powder and the boolit base and leaves no airspace between the powder and the boolit?
Is Dacron and polyester the same thing?...I get this blank stare when I ask for Dacron at the two local fabric shops...They do have polyester pillow stuffing and batting for quilts...:)
thanks

I had the same blank stare this Saturday at my local Fabricland here in Canada as well, Nrut. Finally, I just asked for pillow stuffing. I guess the name Dacron isn't used up here anymore. When they wanted $12/lb I decided that there was a pillow at home I could rip apart. Or I could also head to my local Salvation Army Thrift Store and grab a stuffed animal that I could dissect.

[Nrut]

I had the same blank stare this Saturday at my local Fabricland here in Canada as well, Nrut. Finally, I just asked for pillow stuffing. I guess the name Dacron isn't used up here anymore. When they wanted $12/lb I decided that there was a pillow at home I could rip apart. Or I could also head to my local Salvation Army Thrift Store and grab a stuffed animal that I could dissect.

Aletheuo...
I went to the Walmart in Prince George Sat. I bought one bag that should last me a lifetime..IIRC the price was around $8.00 or $9.00....They had both the stuffing and batting types...

Bruce...
Thanks for your reply..I have on hand a chainsaw file that I bent the tang on a bit to fish gas checks out of a case with, when I was having problems with a certain mold with undersized gc shank..That file should work perfect for Dacron inserting..

[45r]

I found a 20 oz. bag of poly fiberfil that my wife bought at Wal-mart for 2.67 last year.Looks like it would be easier to make tuft's with than cotton.It should make shooting the heavy boolits more fun in the 45-70.The 405GC at 1900 fps gives me a headache sometimes.24 grains 4759 and a wad kicks a lot less.

[aletheuo]

I found a 20 oz. bag of poly fiberfil that my wife bought at Wal-mart for 2.67 last year.Looks like it would be easier to make tuft's with than cotton.It should make shooting the heavy boolits more fun in the 45-70.The 405GC at 1900 fps gives me a headache sometimes.24 grains 4759 and a wad kicks a lot less.

Well for some reason it's $9 up here at walmart so I went to my local thrift store (I think americans call it the goodwill store) and bought a bag for $2 yesterday. I was pleased. I can see that the bag will last me a lifetime.

[wrcook]

BruceB ..... Thanks for the explanation, and your experience. You have answered my question (that I asked in a different thread). The filler is used for accuracy rather than safety. My question was concerning safety of light loads. I like the way you test your loads. I think I will do likewise.... sometimes a person can learn the easy way...

Bill C

[jonk]

I agree on the accuracy but still am absolutely stumped on how you get .5 grains to do the job for you. I'll pull a wad off the bag, pull it a bit to stretch it out, but even though it is still a see-through affair always need at least 3 grains to fill the case. Yes, I've weighed them on a quality RCBS digital scale. No, 3 grains doesn't cause me any issue.

Some loads do better with it, some not, and a few even worse. Just have to try and see. My MAS 36-51 with a 311299 will shoot 1.5MOA groups without and about 5MOA with using 4895. Just never know until you try it.

[mrbill2]

I gave this fillers a try today. Used .5 gr. Kapok with 2400 and 4227 with 4 different bullets in 308 . Didn't work worth a damb for me.
Mr. Bill

[jh45gun]

Guess I am lucky I am more than satisfied with out using filler and my 2400 for my various rifle loads.

[35remington]

Point is, the use of dacron will not cause an accuracy improvement every time......but it will do it often enough that its use is worth investigating.

To completely ignore it is to ignore a step in load development. Give it a try, and if it doesn't help, well, then, you've covered that base and can move on to other things.

I often use dacron in my loading.

[Nora]

Thanks for posting this Bruce. I've never bothered with it in the past. Yesterday I tried it just for fun with my M39. Loaded 20 rds with 25 grns IMR4189 under a 312-185 w/gc and .5 grns of Polly-Fluff pillow stuffing. Then 20 without fill. I'm now sold on the Idea!!! The over all pattern size was the same for both (1 3/4") with the exception of the "with out " only had 6 of the twenty rounds touching (same hole), where as the "with" had 13. (both @ 50 yrds tree supported). I'm liking this and will have to do some development work with it. I'm hoping this will continue but it will take more than 20 rounds to call it fact. As for "all the fliers" I called all of them, even before the round made it all the way down the barrel, I called it. So if they weren't touching they didn't count! :mrgreen:

[pls1911]

Just go buy a $2.00 pillow at Wal Mart...read the label.
You'll have a year's supply of dacron and a starage bag to boot...(the pillow cover).......

.30/30, .45/70, .32 Win, .35 Rem.... one size tuft fits all, unless you're striving for benchrest clover leaf group at 200 yards...

My shootin' requires only minute-of-pigshoulder at 150 yards max, and they all die...

Now if only I could find a starlight scope mount for a Sharps Creedmore....... :)
Pablo/Texas

[Freightman]

Wife bought four King size pillows Xfirm for $5.98 apiece, these suckers were huge (to big for our beds, so I took the ends out took 8" off the end and 1 turn off whole pillow and sewed them back up, just right. I now have a lifetime supply as I was given the four old pillows also. I will never shoot that much.