How i would test for differences between two bullet lubes

[joeb33050]

HOW I WOULD TEST FOR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TWO BULLET LUBES

I would select a rifle and an accurate cast bullet load for it, capable of reliably averaging less than 2” for five five-shot 100 yard groups.
I would load 35-40 cartridges for each lube, identical except for the lube.
I would pick a reasonable day to shoot, no hurricanes or blizzards or below zero or above 100 degree temperatures.
I would make sure the rifle was clean, settle in at the bench, pick the cartridges for one lube-lube A, shoot ~3 foulers and two 5-shot groups for record.
Then I would clean the rifle, let it cool a bit, shoot ~3 foulers and another two 5-shot groups for record.
Then I would clean the rifle, let it cool a bit, shoot ~3 foulers and another one 5-shot groups for record. This would give me five five-shot 100 yard groups.
Then I would do it all over again with cartridges with lube B, foulers, 2 groups, clean foulers, 2 groups, clean, foulers, one group.
Now I would measure and average the group sizes with each lube, giving me lube A five group average and lube B five group average.
One average, either A or B, will be larger than the other.
I then divide the smaller average by the larger average and get the difference percent.. If A average is 1.00”, and B average is 1.25”, I divide 1.00” by 1.25” and get .80”, and a difference between averages of 20%. Lube B groups are 20% larger than lube A groups by this definition.

But am I sure?
For me to be 90% sure of the difference between averages, I may have to shoot more groups.
If the difference is 10%, I need to shoot a total of 23 groups with each lube.
For 15%, 10 groups with each.
For 5%, 95 groups.
For 2%, 607 groups
Tables of difference and numbers of groups required to be 90% sure are available.
This is what I would do, and what I do do, to test differences in loads and guns and variables.
joe b.

[Bret4207]

Well Joe, realizing I'm probably the last person you'd take advice from I'll add this- IME some rifles respond to what I call seasoning. IOW they need a number of shots using the same lube to get the best accuracy. with some gun 5 shots may do it. With others, due to unknown variables in the barrels interior, it may take 50 shots.

I don't think cleaning between groups is a good idea.

[runfiverun]

i would shoot them over a chrono you will see the numbers level out, and you then know the bbl is fully coated with lube.
you should then see a lube star.

[MT Gianni]

I would load the bullets with the same lubes and shoot at 1600 fps raising speeds to 2400 fps. When groups open up it is time to quit. Start with lube #2 and shoot to your satisfaction @ 1600 fps then increase speed until those groups open up. When they do, document the speed with a Chronograph. If all groups open at the same speed you have bullet failure @ that speed. If they vary then you have lube failures. Try at least 5 lubes.

[monadnock#5]

Mr. Ackwards once commented that Bull Plate Lube does an excellent job for prefouling a clean bore before shooting cast. Using the Bull Plate between cleaning and firing your fouling shots would address Brett's concern and help to get all the horses out of the gate on an equal footing. Just a thought.

[joeb33050]

Well Joe, realizing I'm probably the last person you'd take advice from I'll add this- IME some rifles respond to what I call seasoning. IOW they need a number of shots using the same lube to get the best accuracy.

That's why I shoot ~3 foulers, into a target, after cleaning. The first shot almost always is off, the second and third tend toward the center. I've tried to see if more shots makes the rifle settle down, season the bore, but no success yet. After ~3 sighters, the next 5 for group doesn't show any settling down, and the second 5 doesn't either.

with some gun 5 shots may do it. With others, due to unknown variables in the barrels interior, it may take 50 shots.

I'll never know about 50 shots, but have shot ~50 for group with various lubes, lately Lyman Moly, without cleaning, and there has been no increase in accuracy. I always clean at the end of the day, had a barrel corrode after not cleaning, Darr lube and IMR4227, then I learned. Others say they go hundreds of shots, or years, without cleaning. I won't take the chance.

I don't think cleaning between groups is a good idea.

Shooting for accuracy, I think I get slightly better results cleaning every foulers+10 for record. =~13 shots. Other competitive CBA shooters clean about that often. I've never found the cleaning to bother accuracy after ~3 foulers, and have shot a lot without cleaning to get an idea. If the cleaning helps, it's only a little. Also, cleaning cools the barrel some, maybe that's it. Cleaning is generally 2 patches +Marvel Mystery Oil, passes with a nylon brush, 2 patches with MMO. All my patches for ~2 years have been cut from paper towel.


joe b.

[joeb33050]

I would load the bullets with the same lubes and shoot at 1600 fps raising speeds to 2400 fps. When groups open up it is time to quit. Start with lube #2 and shoot to your satisfaction @ 1600 fps then increase speed until those groups open up. When they do, document the speed with a Chronograph. If all groups open at the same speed you have bullet failure @ that speed. If they vary then you have lube failures. Try at least 5 lubes.
I don't shoot over ~1800 fps, like 1400-1600 fps.
I think that this would take months for 5 lubes at various velocities, more than I want to tackle.
joe b.

[swheeler]

I don't shoot over ~1800 fps, like 1400-1600 fps.
I think that this would take months for 5 lubes at various velocities, more than I want to tackle.
joe b.

I think you are correct! I personally want to know accuracy differences at temperatures encountered in hunting situations. I had an very accurate load for a 450 gr 45 cal rifle worked up with Tamarack lube. I had done all load developement in 40 to 60 degree weather, and it was a shooter. I took the rifle to the range in 80+ deg weather, 1st group double/triple size of what load was shooting, second group worse and third group shotgun pattern, the last 16-18 inches of barrel leaded badly. Went home and spent hours removing the lead, sized and lubed up 20 bullets with Lyman Super Moly, went to range couple days later when temp was very close to same as before, a lot better for 1st group but still leading near muzzle, last 6-8 inches and accuracy was way off by 3rd group. About time to try some of the C RED I got from Lars, good time to put the new 4500 sizer w heater into service. The C Red lube produced ZERO leading in this rifle at the 80+ deg and has since been fired in near 100 deg heat with no visable leading in this rife, accuracy is right on in 40-100 deg temps. That reminds me time to order more C Red, there's a little "black magic" in all that red.

[MT Gianni]

I don't shoot over ~1800 fps, like 1400-1600 fps.
I think that this would take months for 5 lubes at various velocities, more than I want to tackle.
joe b.

Joe, I consider failure to get acceptable groups at 1800 fps and over lube failure.

[runfiverun]

i have been able to go up to 2,000 fps with commercial wax lube.
i've gotten to 2200 with ceresin hard lubes.
there are other variables [such as boolit spin] you have to take into account when you lose accuracy at high vel.

[BABore]

I don't shoot over ~1800 fps, like 1400-1600 fps.
I think that this would take months for 5 lubes at various velocities, more than I want to tackle.
joe b.

And in there lies the problem.:coffee:

Does lube choice affect boolit acceleration/velocity?

Does lube choice affect barrel harmonics?

If you answered yes to the first question, then the second question also has to be a big yes. Testing various lubes that all use a common load may tell you very little about the lube. If you truely want to compare lubes, live with them for awhile. Pick a well fitting boolit and work up loads from scratch, changing powder based on group shape and size if needed. Find the load that is the most accurate in that gun with that boolit. Learn how many rounds it takes to foul that gun, with that lube, boolit, powder, and primer until accuracy settles down and also where it goes south. Shoot them in the winter and in the summer. Now shoot your 20 5-shot groups, record them, and move on. Pick another lube and repeat. When you find the "ONE", Try another boolit with slightly different bearing surface or lube capacity and see iff'in you discover anything new. Then, maybe you'll learn something that's worth putting on paper.

[felix]

BAB, "Does lube choice affect velocity?" should be changed to "Does lube choice affect boolit acceleration?" ... felix

[44man]

And in there lies the problem.:coffee:

Does lube choice affect velocity?

Does lube choice affect barrel harmonics?

If you answered yes to the first question, then the second question also has to be a big yes. Testing various lubes that all use a common load may tell you very little about the lube. If you truely want to compare lubes, live with them for awhile. Pick a well fitting boolit and work up loads from scratch, changing powder based on group shape and size if needed. Find the load that is the most accurate in that gun with that boolit. Learn how many rounds it takes to foul that gun, with that lube, boolit, powder, and primer until accuracy settles down and also where it goes south. Shoot them in the winter and in the summer. Now shoot your 20 5-shot groups, record them, and move on. Pick another lube and repeat. When you find the "ONE", Try another boolit with slightly different bearing surface or lube capacity and see iff'in you discover anything new. Then, maybe you'll learn something that's worth putting on paper.
Now this is something I agree with. Changing lube needs a complete workup like changing the primer or powder. Way too much work time and money.
I do it the easy way with my revolvers. I just compare two lubes one after the other at the same time with out cleaning. If one makes a smaller group I will work the load a little to see if it improves, mostly it doesn't. Then I shoot for fun or go hunting.
If I have to clean the gun it only takes one shot to foul the bore. Good to go.
I have had more trouble with jacketed bullets with the first shot from a clean bore then I do with cast.
Long term results mean more to me. Does it shoot the same hot or cold, is the bore free of stuck on lead and does it shoot small groups?
But I am also old and lazy so what can I say? :coffee:

[45 2.1]

BAB, "Does lube choice affect velocity?" should be changed to "Does lube choice affect boolit acceleration?" ... felix

There's a lot more to it than that................

[44man]

I look at it this way; Since the day they figured out to put a lubed patch around a ball, everything that walks, grows or oozes out of the ground has been tried, looking for the perfect lube.
Now Felix lube uses all three, why should I look for something else?
Glenn makes good lubes and LBT has several. If you can't find it there, it just isn't there!
If you just test brand names, most are the same with maybe some black crap in them. Some are a different color. Many swear by a brand but 90% of the time it is 50-50 with additives that do nothing.
So I figure there are five worth testing.
Now if you are going to play with home made lubes, you need to live another 250 years doing all that has been tried before and in the end you will buy some of Glenn's lube and I am sure he will not stick around until you make up your mind. :kidding:
Then you change guns and your perfect lube does not work! :violin::bigsmyl2:
Oh don't forget the billion or so changes in hardness you can try.

[runfiverun]

hence the pick one boolit and mess with the lube variables test, i've been messing with for over a year and a half now.

[joeb33050]

Joe, I consider failure to get acceptable groups at 1800 fps and over lube failure.
I shoot slow because
I don't want to wear out the bore
I don't hunt
I don't want the recoil
I don't want to heat up the barrel-I shoot a lot
Accuracy lies under 1800 fps, see the CBA breech seat results. Yes, some get accuracy over 1800 fps, but they pay for it-see above.
MT, this is America, consider what you want what you want. I'd like to see some proof, but that's not necessary.
joe b.

[1Shirt]

Interesting thread! Just to add a little fuel to the fire, to me all rifles are female, and respond differently to different treatment inclusive of lubes and projectiles.
Most of my rifles just seem to love Lar's red on most every thing, BUT, on a couple of blts in my 308 Stevens, they want Lee mule snot. Same is true of my heavy bbl Sav 243, and the 85 gr. Lyman. Think it is thinking of all rifles as female that keeps me heading back to the range with different stuff always in quest of perfection and that 1/2" hundred yd 5 shot group w/cast. About as probable as a second vergin birth, but ya outta have a goal or two in life that you really know you will never reach.
1Shirt!:coffee: