Paper patch in the .458 Win Mag

[Southern Son]

Folks,
I have been wanting to get into paper patching for a while, but finding dome of the stuff needed to get started has been a little difficult where I live.

I have just got back from holidays down in the big smoke and one of the gun shops down there had a Lee .452 push through sizing die. I bought it and have sized some .459 525grain cast boolits (50% clip on W/W, 50% soft stick on W/W). After sizing, they come out at .452 (funny that). I have some tracing paper here that two wraps takes the boolit up to .460, which I reckon will be close enough. When the wrapped boolit is inserted into the case with about .500 of the sized/wrapped section still sticking out of the case, I can chamber the dummy round without any real force. I have not done a chamber cast, but I think that the rifle has a long "free bore". I can feel the wrapped boolit dragging on the throat, but only just.

It is at this point that I hit a snag. I want to load these PP boolits in my .458 Win Mag, but I would like to start out with light loads. I cannot find any loading data in any of my books here for a light load (1500-1600fps with the 525grain boolit). I also have only limited powder on hand.

Has anyone out there already done this? I have the following powders on hand. AR2206H (H4895), AR2207 (H4198), AR2208 (Varget), AR2213SC (H4831), AR2217 (H1000), Win 760, Win 296, a little bit of Hercules 2400. I also have some pistol powders, but I don't thinkt that they would be of any use, so I won't list them.

Sorry for the long post. :confused:

[softpoint]

You could use 45/70 data for light loads. You have a strong a strong action, no matter what brand .458 you have. The 45/70 data would be even a little lighter in the .458 than the 45/70 as you have a "roomier" case. Start at trapdoor levels and work up. I'm thinking with that paper patch bullet you could probably go full speed in the .458 if you wanted to.:drinks:

[pdawg_shooter]

Full speed is possible with paper patching. I load a 430gr PP over 80gr H335 in my .458

[Cowboy5780]

Ok pdawg man you helped me before with my paper patching by sending me boolits to try now youve peaked my interest again. Ive got a custom built 458 Win mag but its been reamed to 458 Lott ive been loading the J-bullet words cause i was afeerd cast wouldnt work, now i see its ok to shoot it in as a win mag load. My question is can i bump it up and use it in the Lott load? as i sit here im braindead to what load and powder i was using i remember it was 90 grs im say 3031 or 4831 will have to look if you want me to.
Thanks Tony

[pdawg_shooter]

Yep, go for it guy. Keep your alloy hard enough, or heat treat you WWs. I have taken a 350gr up to 2600 in my 458. The BHN was 17.5. Shot good.

[stubshaft]

You can shoot it with regular full power loads. if you want a reduced load use 29.0 2400 behind that 525gr boolit for about 1300fps.

[pdawg_shooter]

BTW Cowboy, how did those bullets work out for you? Did you try any of the 30cals?

[Cowboy5780]

pdawg all the boolits you sent me worked great now im hooked on something else Lol

[Lead pot]

I have always wondered why you guys using the .458 Win Mag and the .458 Lott driving those bullets @ 2300 fps, What are you gaining over the lowly .45-70 going at 1250 fps?
You eat all that unnecessary recoil if your doing it for deeper penetration shooting the .458 or Lott well you might be surprised that the .45-70 will out penetrate the faster loads in the .458win mag and the Lott.

LP

[twotrees]

Because they can !!!!


Have a friend that shoot our small white tail deer with his 458. With 300 gr boolits and a load of IMR 3031. All he has shot are DRT and it doesn't tear up meat like a 300 Win mag does.

I say go for it.

[Lead pot]

:-D twotrees, I always have said shoot what ever trips your trigger:-D
I shoot some of the most oddball rifles in most peoples book:-D

[Southern Son]

Thanks for all the advice kind folks. I think that I will try some light 45/70 loads with AR2206H (off the top of my head, 40grains, but I will double check). I was thinking of maybe doing that, but then I was worried about a big empty case with only a light load.

Lead Pot, I want to down load this because with max loads it can be an interesting day at the range. The last time I fire this rifle (a Brno, mid 1970's manufacture I think, has the single set trigger and a pop up peep sight in the rear bridge of the action), the recoil tore the scope mounts off the top of the receiver mid recoil. This left the scope hanging in mid air in just the right place to catch the rear sight (big express "V") while the rifle was still moving backwards at quite a rate of knots. This then propelled the scope back at me, hitting me over the left eye and giving me a "Weatherby eyebrow". How many blokes can claim a "Weatherby eyebrow" over their non shooting eye? This all happened on the seventh round. I think that the scope tube is bent (no biggy, it was a cheapo I put on their to fool around with) and I still have a scar over my left eye.

I have come up with a fix, but it will take a while. When I do it, I will post in the "Special Projects" forum.

[docone31]

Iffen it were me, and I had that .458, I would first find the casting profile that has a good spread. It is a big bore and has serious potential. Kinda anemic stock, but with tweaking, it is a ground shaker!
I would paper patch that puppy. With a good WW casting, wrapped in paper, you will get lattitude in loading. From Full Tilt, to easy listening.
I think, the .458 can be a very versitile cartridge. From mild to extreme. A good straight wall cartridge with lots of BP potential also.
Best of all worlds.
Weatherby Scope Eye!!!
I had a Carl Gustov in .338 win mag-06 Ackley Improved that was a real issue to keep a scope on. It was a lefty, already built, sitting in a gun store getting dust. No one wanted a Left Handed anything, and I am a lefty.
I got the rifle, stripped the stock, did a Weatherby finish useing Tung Oil, wipeing between each coat. It almost glowed in the dark!
First round, I got circles of plain wood all over the stock! Little circles. The finish was popping off. Second round, the scope rings seperated from the mount. Broke clean off! They were on an one piece mount, and the lower part of the rings were still on the mount, the rings were on the scope. They were snapping just below the bottom of the rings leaving the lower portion of the rings still attached to the mount. Replaced the rings, refinished the stock. I diluted the Tung Oil this time, fired off a few and the one piece mount sheared the mounting screws off the reciever! The rings held, the mount was still on the rings, but, the screws all had fractured level with the action.
I got some machined rings rather than cast/machined, Redding I believe, Bedded the mount with T88 Epoxy. Now the scope remained on the rifle. I went to the range with 60 brand new reloads. If I remember correctly, I think I used 74gns of 3031. It hurt, even though I had put a field pad on it. It just plain hurt. 20rds, ok, as I fired more, it really started to hurt. This was with a shirt, sweater, denim jacket.
Expensive rifle to fire, but, sometimes is is just plain good to stop in Men's Town for a few.
It was a beautiful rifle with a crappy stamped steel trigger guard. Of all the things really well done on this rifle, this cheap stamped trigger guard! Everything else was great! Jeweled bolt, bedded and signed action, burly stock, Iron wood nose cap, it was just plain beautiful.
With paper patching, you can make that .458 really talk!

[Lead pot]

:lol: southern son pardon me for laughing at you pain :roll::roll:been there once shooting a 4 bore:roll:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm

That .458 Lott would make a very good .45-110.
Just fill the case up with 1F black powder and put the right diameter PP bullet a .442 and two wraps of .002 paper and shoot.
I don't know what the twist in that Lott is but I would imagine it's a little faster than I use in .45/2-7/8 (110) the Lott case is just a little shorter than the 110 but a 1.5" bullet just might fly pretty good. And the recoil will be a lot milder.


I read a lot of strange ways the way some here patch bullets so don't fall into that trap.

LP.

[Southern Son]

docone, I was very close to stuffing 80grains of Wano FF, but I will reserve that for the 45/70.

Lead pot, interesting reading. I have long maintained that once a boolt gets over about 400 grains, throwing it at game closer than 100 yards at speeds over 1500fps is just too much of a good thing. If you are shooting longer ranges, then trajectory is something to think about and speed always helps with that, but there is no animal walking this continent that cannot be killed cleanly with 500 grains at 1250fps. If you can kill a bison with it, then pigs are not really going to be a challenge, and most water buffalo are still smaller than the bison.

[windrider919]

My favorite cartridge is .458 Win Mag and to me it is an all around cartridge. My rifle has an 18" twist yet handles bullets up to 500gr accuratly. I get my best accuracy from PP bullets and have described my adventures in reloading in multiple threads. You might find it interesting doing a thread search in the Paper Patch section because there is too much to relate here and now. But FYI, best jacketed performance was around 3" at 100yards, best cast GG was 2 to 2 1/2" and the PP load that I shoot now is a 460gr over H4895 and a magnum primer giving 1" loads time after time.

13758

[docone31]

I see you loaded with a plastic sabot. How did that work out as compared to paper patching?

[windrider919]

I tried the BP sabots with a 158 gr Hornady XTP bullet and a 'mystery .358 200 gr rifle bullet( which gave 24 inch groups). I have tried Reloader 7, H4895, BLC2, 5744, H322, WW748 and both 2400 and Universal Clays. I have tried fillers such as dacron puffs an Kodak PE granuels. The accuracy is erratic to be honest. I think it is because the sabot is too soft and strips out instead of rifling. I tried putting a under-sabot using a hard card wad then a wax wad before seating the sabot/bullet and got the best accuracy at 2" at 100 yards. The reloading data I used was for the 35 Wheelen as it has somewhat the same case volume. I am going to try the 40 cal sabot/bullet combo when I get to shooting again. I got a few hundred primers but I am not going to shoot them until I can be sure of getting more.

[docone31]

I had always wondered.
I suspect, the .224 Accelerators in 30-30, .308, and 30-06 did as well as they did as the bore was small, not to mention specialty loading.
Sounds like paper is the way to go. The more I read, the more sure I am.

[Southern Son]

A short update, I loaded 20 rounds with 45 grains of AR2206 under my 525 grain boolit. I still have to get the scope on the rifle, so I could not shoot any serious groups. I also forgot my Chrony so I don't know velocity. However, recoil was fine, when I did the right thing they were accurate enough to give some old shot up bowling pins a hard time and there was no leading, at all. Thanks for the help, when I get a scope on the rifle, I will shoot some groups at 50 and 100 meters, as well as check how fast they are going.

I only recovered a few peices of patch, mainly the base sections. I did see some confetti come out the end of the barrel, but it was very windy and I could not find any on the ground.

[303Guy]

I also forgot my ChronyI can understand forgetting your ammo. I can understand forgetting the bolt ..... done both more than once!:mrgreen:

The once I forgot ammo but had two rounds. They lasted the whole day and I took them home again! Then I forgot my mag. Never needed more than one shot! (Forgetting the bolt was a bit inhibiting!) I may even have fortotten my rifle .....

[rockrat]

Being that the 458 is a straight wall cartridge basically, why not try what I have done with my 45-70. I dump the powder, put a card wad on top of the powder and fill the case with grits to the point when I seat the boolit, I have about .100" compression. Kind of like loading black powder, no air space. Works well in my old Trapdoor and my Pedersoli Sharps (45-70 & 40-65).

[Lead pot]

Being that the 458 is a straight wall cartridge basically, why not try what I have done with my 45-70. I dump the powder, put a card wad on top of the powder and fill the case with grits to the point when I seat the boolit, I have about .100" compression. Kind of like loading black powder, no air space. Works well in my old Trapdoor and my Pedersoli Sharps (45-70 & 40-65).

By putting the wad on the powder and the rest grits under a bullet is not a good idea.
The grids is not solid, there is enough air that it is like an obstruction especially with the high pressure using smokeless powder, even what you call a light load.
Using a reduced smokeless load with the wrong powder is just as bad as using to much powder.
You are fortunate you still have a working trapdoor.
You might say I been doing it for a long time and it works good.
Some day you will remember what I just said.

Lp.

[Nazgul]

I use reduced loads in my 458 Mod 70. Use IMR4895 and a piece of dacron fluff. It holds the powder against the primer and adds no weight. No chance of creating an obstruction.

Don

[windrider919]

I too prefer a puff of Dacron to hold the powder back against the primer yet not create an 'obstruction'. The question is "how much is enough?" I read in magazines that you want enough that it holds the powder and fills the airspace completely yet is the least amount to do that. It's job is keeping the powder charge from shifting forward, nothing else. And I mean a puff , not compressed on top of the powder as one fellow shooter was doing. The great thing about Dacron is that it is consumed completely and does not leave any residue inside the barrel. And it works in bottle necked cases and straight walled.

As per the solid fillers, my understanding is that if it fills the space between powder and bullet base it will not create a bore obstruction. The little bit of air space between the grains is not enough to collaspe and slam forward into the base. However, solid fillers should NEVER be used in bottleneck cases, just straight wall cases.

BUT!!!!!! You must weigh the filler because it adds to the projectile weight!!!! So if you were shooting a fast powder that had a small case volume leading to a large 'bad' airspace [Because big airspace was linked to chamber ringing and "reflected pressure wave detonation", hence big air space should be filled with filler] yet were close to max pressure you could go over max because you are "shooting" a heavier projectile than you thought. ( I have used as much as 55gr of filler in the .458 on top of a charge of Unique shooting a 405gr cast bullet. That ment the powder was pushing a "projectile" of 460gr. If I had not compensated the loading manual data would have let me overcharge the powder amount.) This is not just my opinion, the American Rifleman had several articles in the '70s and '80s on properly using fast powders / low case volume/ big airspace and also gave examples of rifles damaged by improper loads. That lead to the 'Don't use fillers at all attitude because people wanted simple and proper filler use took too much thought. Or the belief that fast / pistol powders should not be used in large volume cases. Especially if the powder charge was strung out and laying in the bottom of the case between primer and bullet base. Such a charge fires best if the powder is all the way to the back of the case against the primer. That is why a lot of match shooters raise the muzzle up before settling the rifle to shoot, to move the powder against the base of the cartridge. But with a pistol size charge of powder even here the Dacron does hold the powder back but does NOT act as a filler and sympathetic detonation could occur. Remember, Dacron 'leaves' the airspace intact. All it does is hold the powder in the best burning position.

That is why I only use a fast / pistol powder with a solid filler like plastic flakes or granuels or use the old fashioned grits, etc and add the filler weight to the bullet weight then calculate the powder charge. I do use Dacron fiber in a lot of loads if the powder amount leaves more than 10% empty case volume below the seated bullet base level to hold the powder in the case rear. And only for that reason. And I pretty much stopped using fast powders in large cases. Instead I use a medium powder light charge and the dacron. I found this gives better accuracy than any of the fast / pistol powders anyway and that is why I shoot. For accuracy.

[moose0011]

Thanks for all the advice kind folks. I think that I will try some light 45/70 loads with AR2206H (off the top of my head, 40grains, but I will double check). I was thinking of maybe doing that, but then I was worried about a big empty case with only a light load.

Lead Pot, I want to down load this because with max loads it can be an interesting day at the range. The last time I fire this rifle (a Brno, mid 1970's manufacture I think, has the single set trigger and a pop up peep sight in the rear bridge of the action), the recoil tore the scope mounts off the top of the receiver mid recoil. This left the scope hanging in mid air in just the right place to catch the rear sight (big express "V") while the rifle was still moving backwards at quite a rate of knots. This then propelled the scope back at me, hitting me over the left eye and giving me a "Weatherby eyebrow". How many blokes can claim a "Weatherby eyebrow" over their non shooting eye? This all happened on the seventh round. I think that the scope tube is bent (no biggy, it was a cheapo I put on their to fool around with) and I still have a scar over my left eye.

I have come up with a fix, but it will take a while. When I do it, I will post in the "Special Projects" forum.

I realize this is an old post but it is kind of funny. I am looking into learning about paper patching for my 458 win mag and google search brought me here. I have to comment on this because I built my brother a 257 weatherby when he graduated highschool. after owning 2 years we where out shooting. And on his last shot for the day he continued to lay there after I told him that he missed.. he didn't say a word. He is right handed mind you. He got the weatherby eye over his left eye and he continued looking down range not to look at us. We had no idea the scope hit him and he was so embarrased. he had the scope zoomed all the way up and was laying really close at a weird angle. As I replay it back in my memory it makes sense, but it was so funny because he knew is big brothers were right behind him and he was going to have to turn around and face the music lol.. he still catches ....... for it.