Nickel Ingots....any good?

[BrushBuster]

I was visiting today with a friend and former bullet caster (1970's). As we were talking, he was scrounging around looking for things I might be able to use in my initial endeavours at casting. Under his bench he found about 6 ingot bars of what was stamped "Genuine Nickel". He could not remember who gave it to him, or what it was intended for? They are 5 lb. bars in 1 lb. segments and have a slight golden hue to the surface. He gave them to me, saying "find a use for them if you can".

Well I couldn't immediately identify its use, but I said I know of a bunch of guys that probably will! I've done a search on this forum and googled but am still not sure what I have here. What I'm hoping is that this is a nickel babbit and that it will contain a lot of tin which I can certainly use.....but is there some bad stuff in there? Enlighten me please!
Brushy

Addendum: When cut with a hacksaw, the internal color is bright silver. I was able to break an ingot off in the vise by hand, and this exposed a grey crystalline surface. After being bent about 20 degrees, the ingot broke off. Hardness level is estimated to be about 30 BHN. File cuttings are grey and not easily melted with a hand torch. Whatever it is, it is also non-magnetic.

[Blacktail 8541]

Wish I knew what it is that you have but I'm pretty sure that someone on this board will have a good ideal.

[Pepe Ray]

Allow me to venture a GUESS, Jewelers nickle or German silver is used by custom gum makers to CAST furniture or hardware for rifles, shotguns and revolvers. ie. Schnable tips, patch box covers, initial shields etc. Could this be the same?
Pepe Ray

[Frank46]

BrushBuster, if its truly nickle silver or german silver you could probably sell it on ebone and get enough scratch to definitely buy some supplies for your addiction (bullet casting disease) Like Pepe Ray said, those german silver castings for patch boxes, schnable muzzle tips and shields command some good bucks. Just a thought. Frank

[Buckshot]

"................ The babbitt should be relatively fresh. As babbitt is heated the tin will oxidize as does the antimony vaporize. The remaining material becomes harder and harder thus the bearing material will start to lose some of its elasticity with this chemical change. Just as lead makes babbitt too soft to use on a gas engine the addition of nickel makes babbitt too hard. Do not use babbitt with more than 1/4% of 1% being nickel. In fact avoid it altogether if possible. Each time you have a new melt you should have a least 50% fresh babbit added to the pot."

The above is dealing specificly with gasoline engine >Lead Free< babbitt bearings.

Most all babbitts for high velocity (rotaional) and/or impact are lead free. They are either tin or copper based, and what makes them appear attractive to the boolit caster in either type is the high tin content. Neither will have any appreciable amount of lead, and it actually considered an impurity. Lead being held to less then 2/10 of 1% or less.

You could try a small test using a bit of that piece you broke off. Melt a couple pounds of WW metal (be prepared to toss it out afterwards). Cast a couple slugs with it as a comparison baseline. Then add a small fraction of the so called nickel-babbitt and then attempt to cast a boolit with it after the temp has returned to the pervious level. If it is an uncomplicated design it 'may' cast. Test your baseline's hardness and also mike it, and compare to the alloy with the babbitt addition.

The death element zinc, is held to very low levels. However the presence of copper, cadmium, aluminum, iron, arsenic and bismuth may produce a level high enough to affect the fluidity, especially if it is copper based which the golden hue may predict.

Probable best use is to offer it for sale to the guys into building or restoring old steam or gasoline engines and their auxileries.

.....................Buckshot

[13Echo]

If the ingots are pure, or contain a large percentage of nickle then they will be attracted by a magnet.

Jerry Liles

[carpetman]

Brushbuster -------Nickel silver is used for bullets on low class wierwolves. On the two bit variety weirwolf it takes 5 nickel bullets. We are talking low class. Now penny ante weirwolves it does the job,overkill. The Lone Ranger would never use the nickel silver but a Lone Ranger wannabe might. Ofcourse you can tell they are just a wannabe--even with their mask on,the nickel bullet is a give away. BTW when you cut that with a hacksaw did it perhaps make sawdust? Wouldnt want you taking any wooden nickel.

[Blacktail 8541]

Carpetman, that was good.

[drinks]

Babbitt metal content varies widely.
I have some from a power plant in Canada, analysis with it, 45% Lead, 45% Tin, 4% Antimony and 6% metallic Phosphorus, this is BHN 16 after 24 hours.
Another is 85% lead, 10% Antimony , 4% Tin , .3% Copper and .3% Nickel.
This alloy comes out of a mold at BHN 24 and will not harden or soften with age and does not water harden.
Another is 90% Tin, 5% Antimony, 2% Silver, 2% Lead and "trace elements".
It is BHN 15 after 24 hours and does not water harden.

[BrushBuster]

Carpetman:
I only shoot what I can eat!

13Echo:
This stuff does not respond to a magnet?

[9.3X62AL]

If so--show us your recipe for paper targets! :-)

[carpetman]

Brushbuster--You only shoot what you can eat. What about the misses?

[9.3X62AL]

You can sure tell that football season is over--and baseball hasn't started up yet.

[BrushBuster]

Well, it would seem I've drawn a blank on this mystery alloy. My fault of course, I just don't have enough info. to draw on. Like Buckshot says, I'd have to put some effort and testing into this to determine any blending value and I just don't have the expertise at this point to get serious. Got my hands full with the basics.

I do still have an enquiry out to a california smelter that might provide some answers yet, but it would have to be a simple solution for me. In the meantime, I have numerous bars of a substance that might be of value to someone in the know, and for the price of postage I'll put it in your hands.

Besides, I just want to crank out good hunting boolits, and Tin or the like is only of minor use in making a projectile for that purpose. Thanks for trying. On the upside, I scored 100 lb. of clean ingots from this friend that I can put in my pot when it arrives. Gotta get ready for werewolf.....oops bear season.

Brushy
:lovebooli

[Pilgrim]

Figure out the volume and exact weight of that vbolume and then you can figure out the density. From that it may be possible to surmise what the ingots are made of.

FWIW...Pilgrim

[redneckdan]

if you send me a small sample, like a couple decent size shavings, I can have my boss at the university run a gas chromatography on it, this will tell you the extact content of the material and percentages. I''m pretty sure I can get him to do it as a favor, he is suseptible to quantities of "free" cast boolits.

[BrushBuster]

A very generous offer Dan, and should certainly provide a definative answer.
Thank you kindly. I'll look for a PM from you and get a sample on the way.
I'm sure everybody on the forum would be interested in the results, so save a stamp and just post the results right here.

BrushBuster

[JohnH]

I'm gonna ask a silly question.... If the bars are marked "Genuine Nickel" is there any reason we should doubt that? How did you arrive at an estimate of 30 BHN? I would think nickel would be far harder than that. Sell the stuff on ebone, you can't make boolits with it.

[woody1]

Brushbuster, if that stuff is as soft as you say, I'll bet it's nickel babbit. If so, it's good stuff for adding to your melt. It'll be on the order of 90% tin, 7-8% antimony and a touch of lots of other stuff, none of which is of any consequence except the 3-5% copper. Seens as I recall Felix telling me to keep the copper down to a half a percent or so. I know, the percentages don't add up right but are ranges anyhow. With that much tin, I wouldn't add more than a half pound to a 10 pound pot anyhow. Hereis a link that you should check out.
http://www.grantmfg.com/Data%20Sheets/GR2NI%20BABBITT.htm
Then do a google search for nickel babbitt. Was it me, I'd try melting a ingot and check out the melting temp. Should be around 800. HTH Regards, Woody

[Blackwater]

Well, before you go off sellin' that "nickel," you may want to consider whether you've ever wanted to make yourself a custom knife. You can buy the blades 99% finished, some wood for a handle or scales, and then you'd have the "nickel," of whatever variety, to make the guard and maybe hilt out of. I'd keep it, even if you don't, though, but I'm an inveterate packrat, and NEVER throw anything away until about a week before I actually NEED it. But some of you can identify, I think???

[13Echo]

Brushbuster
If it doesn't respond to a magnet then the nickle content is small and it likely is nickle containing babbit as others have surmised. The Canadian 5 cent piece or nickle used to have a high enough content to be magnetic. The US nickle used to contain nickle but I could never attract it with a magnet like the Canuck variety. Of course this was a long time ago, when the Canadia nickle was a polygon.

Jerry Liles

[BrushBuster]

I'm gonna ask a silly question.... If the bars are marked "Genuine Nickel" is there any reason we should doubt that? How did you arrive at an estimate of 30 BHN? I would think nickel would be far harder than that. Sell the stuff on ebone, you can't make boolits with it.

Not a silly question at all, and one I'm trying to sort out.
Why bullet casters were exchanging this stuff in years past, why it is non-magnetic, why it is soft enough to indicate around 30 BHN based on ball impact comparisons I made? The markings are crudely stamped on only two bars.

Your probably right that I will not be able to use it; just succumbed to the temptation to salvage a possible source of tin.

[BrushBuster]

Brushbuster, if that stuff is as soft as you say, I'll bet it's nickel babbit. If so, it's good stuff for adding to your melt. It'll be on the order of 90% tin, 7-8% antimony and a touch of lots of other stuff, none of which is of any consequence except the 3-5% copper. Seens as I recall Felix telling me to keep the copper down to a half a percent or so. I know, the percentages don't add up right but are ranges anyhow. With that much tin, I wouldn't add more than a half pound to a 10 pound pot anyhow. Hereis a link that you should check out.
http://www.grantmfg.com/Data%20Sheets/GR2NI%20BABBITT.htm
Then do a google search for nickel babbitt. Was it me, I'd try melting a ingot and check out the melting temp. Should be around 800. HTH Regards, Woody

Thanks Woody,
That's the reason I'm trying to pin this stuff down. All the tin I would ever need!

[Leadmine]

Redneckdan, gas chromatography is a useless test for nickel. Ask for x-ray analysis or ICP. A wet-chemical test for nickel can provide qualitative results.

[Bullshop]

Thats why I like this place, those big words are so cool. Wish I knew what they ment.
BIC/BS

[libbyman]

according to "Machinery's Handbook of 1990" on page 398, it says that
Nickel melts at 2651 Deg. F. I dont think this will be any good for bullet
casting.

[StarMetal]

Thats why I like this place, those big words are so cool. Wish I knew what they ment.
BIC/BS

Here ya go pardner:

Gas chromatography - specifically gas-liquid chromatography - involves a sample being vapourised and injected onto the head of the chromatographic column. The sample is transported through the column by the flow of inert, gaseous mobile phase. The column itself contains a liquid stationary phase which is adsorbed onto the surface of an inert solid.

Wet Chemical analysis excludes all techniques that use instrumentation for quantitative analysis. Gravimetry (in which a chemical species is determined by weighing) and Titrimetry (which involves volume measurement of a liquid reactant) are two procedures that we use in our laboratory to perform classical chemistry.

Most classical wet chemical methods can accommodate comparatively small amounts of a sample in diverse shapes or forms. It can also be applied to represent the gross chemistry of moderately inhomogeneous material sample.

Wet chemistry may be used to “umpire” a traditional instrumental approach for accuracy. In addition to more conventional titration analysis, wet chemical analysis plays on important role in many other analytical applications including coating identification and wear metal identification.

Joe

[BrushBuster]

Continuing the quest for tin!!

This morning on my Coleman stove, I melted down one ounce of "mystery ingots" and 2 ounces of pure lead (roof lead flashing). I watched closely to determine the melt rate (don't have a thermometer yet) and noticed the lead melt a little sooner than the mystery stuff did. They soon blended together nicely, and I cast it out a flat concrete surface . What I got was an alloy noticeably stiffer and harder than the sheet lead and it had filled out nicely to the rough surface it was poured on, showing every detail. It was malleable, and showed no sign of fracturing after I beat hell out of it with a hammer.

Now if that was Nickel, it would have a melting point of 1452 f. as opposed to the lead at 600. I simply could not melt Nickel in this manner.....right? I estimated the melt point at 750 f.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Mystery Ingots Identified!

This afternoon I got a response to my e-mail to the foundry. It is #2 grade Nickel Babbitt

Here is the website of the foundry that makes it:
http://www.purityalloys.com/Babbitt%20Bearing%20Alloys.HTM

If you go there, note the way they identify the #2 Nickel-Babbitt (Nickel Genuine). This is exactly what is stamped on the end of my bars.

Here's the breakdown:
ASTM #B-23 * Grade #2 (Code Stamp: Nickel Genuine (Lead Free)
Tin Sn 88.0-90.0
Antimony Sb 7.0-8.0
Lead Pb 0.35 max
Copper Cu 3.0-4.0
Iron Fe 0.08 max
Arsenic As 0.10 max
Bismuth Bi 0.08 max
Zinc Zn 0.005 max
Aluminum Al 0.005 max
Cadmium Cd 0.05 max
Total * 99.8
Copper is a little high, but I'm sure I can work with it. Everything else looks fine to these inexperienced eyes.
I would be very interested in your comments on this alloy and blending ratio's. I'm thinking that 8 ounces in a 20 lb. pot of wheelweight lead would be a good place to start.

Thanks to all that assisted me with this, especially woody1 who really got me on the right track.
Thanks also redneckdan, for the offer of testing a sample.
BrushBuster :drinks:

[redneckdan]

yer welcome, I figured the gas chromatography would be a place to start, they probably mentioned its in effective ness on nickle in the chemistry class I took, too bad I didn't pay much attention, I was doing good to get my C.

[Buckshot]

yer welcome, I figured the gas chromatography would be a place to start, they probably mentioned its in effective ness on nickle in the chemistry class I took, too bad I didn't pay much attention, I was doing good to get my C.

redneckdan, you know what matters most? The fact that you offered to do what you did. Regardless how it turned out, the offer of time and energy in trying to help means a whole lot to the entire board as a community.

Everytime someone send someone else so boolits to try or something else similar, it just further proves to me what a fine bunch we have on board here.

...............Buckshot

[Lloyd Smale]

your using the same babbit i get from the paper mill here. The amount of tin will not hurt a thing i used to skim it off but dont even bother any more.

[BrushBuster]

Lloyd, I'm sure you mean the amount of copper here. Thanks for the comfirmation of it being a good alloy.
Brushy

[glicerin]

Brushbuster: 'nickel babbit' dents with a hammer and rings like a bell because of 80% tin, about 12% antimony. I ignore small amounts of nickel and copper(probably just compounds which float and skim off). Four oz. of ni babbit to 10 lbs. of ww gives about 2.5% tin(melts in very easily). 'Nickel' metal won't melt, doesn't dent easily, and is too soft for knives(corrosion resistance good). Good luck

[Lloyd Smale]

good eye pal
Lloyd, I'm sure you mean the amount of copper here. Thanks for the comfirmation of it being a good alloy.
Brushy