Bear defense?

[hoosierlogger]

I will be leaving with my cousin and a buddy from work for the upper peninsula of Michigan later today. I am planning on taking a handgun for peace of mind in the un-likley event of a bear attack. I would like to head your opinions about the gun and ammo of choice that is best suited for this, God forbid it should be needed.

Guns and ammo available are.

Bersa thunder 9 16 round 9mm one clip. ammo available are 147 gr hydra shok subsonic, 147 grain hydra shok federal hi power, 115 gr fmj, 224 gr TC cast boolit

Springfield 1911 with 3 7rd clips. 230 gr fmj ball, or 230 gr TC cast boolit.

Taurus .38SPL loaded with 130 gr ball, or 125 gr Gold dots

Other guns left out for obvious reasons (under powered)

I am leaning towards the .45 with the FMJ due to the three mags and larger hole it will leave.

lets hear your opinions. We will be leaving in 3 hours

[Trey45]

Honestly none of the above. If those are your only choices then carry the 1911 with your cast. You'll want all the penetration you can muster. JMHO but a hot loaded 45 colt in a blackhawk or redhawk or better is the "smallest" I would trust for bear. There's plenty of guys out there who don't feel under gunned with a 357 magnum, I'm not one of them.

[hoosierlogger]

Yeah those are the three biggest handguns I have without borrowing one from someone. And a gun is like a woman, you dont borrow them from someone else even if they say its OK. LOL

[badgeredd]

Of the guns and ammo you are mentioning, I'd personally go with the 1911 with the cast 230s. Bears rarely die quickly if not hit exactly right. That in mind, I'd want something that HIT them rather than stung them. Bigger is definitely better in my opinion. I kinda figure that if it wants to eat you, you need as much deterent as you can muster.

Edd

[hoosierlogger]

you need as much deterent as you can muster.

Edd

Thanks edd that is what I was thinking. We also have pepper spray to take along with us, but if the wind is not cooperating it may be of little use or worse, it could blow the spray back to us.

[Echo]

I would agree. Of the three guns mentioned, my choice hands down, would the the .45 with ball ammo (cast or j-word).

[Hurricane]

There are black bears in upper peninsula of Michigan but you are very unlikely to be attacked by one of them. With luck you might see one of them crossing a road near sundown or while you are in the woods picking strawberries. Read the hunting requlations, they are very strict about having anything larger than a 22 out of hunting seasons. You don't need anything but if you must a shotgun with slugs is better than any handgun, even a single shot shotgun. What you should fear and prepare for is the black flies. Tiny bugs (they call them no-see-them) that bite anyone brave enough to go in the woods after it thaws out from the winter. Take a good supply of insect repelant.

[badgeredd]

There are black bears in upper peninsula of Michigan but you are very unlikely to be attacked by one of them. With luck you might see one of them crossing a road near sundown or while you are in the woods picking strawberries. Read the hunting requlations, they are very strict about having anything larger than a 22 out of hunting seasons. You don't need anything but if you must a shotgun with slugs is better than any handgun, even a single shot shotgun. What you should fear and prepare for is the black flies. Tiny bugs (they call them no-see-them) that bite anyone brave enough to go in the woods after it thaws out from the winter. Take a good supply of insect repelant.

You're completely correct, Hurricane. One thing you may have forgotten though is that a lot of sows will be out with their young cubs. That does make a difference. ++++! on the black flies!!!!!!!!!

Myself, I always carry a big bore handgun in the more wild areas of the Upper and Lower. Carry permit does allow that.

Edd

[clearwater]

couple of links

firearm laws
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_mi.htm

bear spray study
http://byunews.byu.edu/archive08-Mar-bearspray.aspx
The research debunks these common misconceptions about bear spray:

* "Bear spray doesn't work when it's windy." Wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy in five of the 71 incidents studied, although the spray reached the bear in all cases. Smith used a wind meter to test the speed of the spray as it streams out of the canister. Repeated tests showed an average of 70 miles per hour. Smith also noted that bears and humans can easily see each other in open, windy spaces. The surprise encounters tend to occur in wooded areas in which vegetation blocks wind.

[deltaenterprizes]

To put this in perspective, you need to go through 12'' of matted hair,hide,fat and then muscle BEFORE you get to a vital organ! None of the guns you mention will do that. I hope you can do a head shot running as fast as you can pointing a gun over your shoulder!
This is what the 454 Casull was designed for.
Shotgun with 50 cal sabot slugs might work, they are almost equal to a 45-70.

[HeavyMetal]

MY suggestion would be a 12 guage with slugs!

Odds are you will not see a bear but if you do and find a mean one you'll need something!

If the 45 is all the gun you got I will suggest H&G 68's load on a very stiff charge of Unique: 7.5 grains! This is hard on the gun and the shooter and is not a plinkin load! It is also about a half a grain over current max in the load manuals!

This is a load that Col. Cooper suggested years ago for just such a problem!

I know for a fact that, cast hard, this load will punch through 12 inch's of 3/4 inch plywood at 15 feet.

I wouldn't shoot until the bear was that close or closer and it would get all 8 with as fast a reload as I could manage and possibley 7 more if it was still moving, grunting or the wind was moving it's fur!

I am allergic to being dead!

[Kraschenbirn]

While I've had only one "close encounter" with a bear, my wife and I are boondock campers and usually spend a couple of weeks each year in "bear country" so I've given considerable thought to selection of a "carry piece." IMO your first consideration should be "Which gun do I shoot best?" While the 9mm might be considered a bit the "light" side, I once knew a professional hunting guide who packed a Browning Hi-Power loaded with 124 gr FMJ(TC)s as a "back-up" gun (his "primary" was an M94 in .375 Win). Given the choice between the 9mm and the .45 ACP, though, I'd go with the 1911...but I've been shooting Gov't Models in one form of competition or another for close to 50 years, too.

However, my personal preference is my 4 5/8" OM Vaquero .44 loaded with 240 gr JSPs at around 1200 fps as a "last resort."

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

I have killed 3 BBs with handguns, 2 of them with 1911s (one a Colt Combat Commander and the other a M1911) I use 185 gr HPs and 200 gr hardcast. Both bears dies without much trouble. There was not a problem with penetration.

I suggest; "Springfield 1911 with 3 7rd clips. 230 gr fmj ball, or 230 gr TC cast boolit."

You should have 7-8 shots of very controllable shooting. That will do a lot of damage to a black bear (BB). The trick to shooting an errant BB is to shoot when they make their first move to attack instead of waiting until the are in a headlong charge. I've timed myself against my .41 and .44 magnums and also a .480 Ruger. I could get off almost the entire magazine of well aimed shots with the .45 before I could get off 2 well aimed shots with the magnums, especially the single action magnums. Some may do better than that with a magnum revolver but I can't (I work at it a lot too!), can you? Six to eight hits with a .45 ACP for me can be a lot of deterant for a BB. Black bears are not hard to "turn" given an attack. Most BBs are just wanting to get away anyways. Many of these discusions center around the concept of a "one shot stop". I say phooey to one shot! I'm going to keep shooting until the BB is down, gone or I'm out of ammo.

I lived hunted and patroled (LEO) in BB country in NE Oregon for many years. I most often carried a .45 ACP handgun unless specifically hunting with one of my other handguns. I also carry the .45 when rifle hunting as there are more two legged varmints in the woods to worry about than charging BBs. You will be fine with the M1911 .45 ACP with either of the loads mentioned.

Larry Gibson

[Terrier]

If you have a Concealed Weapons Permit you may leagally carry the handgun out of season. I have had 3 bear encounters in the upper part of the lower pennsula and every time they ran away from me faster than I could get away from them. The most important point is that it is the time for cubs and the sows are totally unpredictable. Stay within the law and carry the biggest thing you can handle.
Terrier

[Recluse]

There's plenty of guys out there who don't feel under gunned with a 357 magnum, I'm not one of them.

First bear I ever had to kill in a camping situation was with a S&W Model 686 8 3/8" barrel, carried in a shoulder holster and loaded with Winchester 168gr Silvertips. It took eight shots to stop this big brown bear. Thank youknowwho for HKS speedloaders.

It did the job, to be sure, but it got a little exciting towards the last three shots.

The second bear I had to kill in a similar situation was with my S&W Model 29 8 3/8" barrel loaded with Hornady 240gr XTP. Three shots and it was absolutely over.

I hated, hated, hated, hated having to shoot those bears, but there was no mistaking the fact that both were acting agressively and all other resorts (yelling, throwing stuff, etc) had failed miserably.


Stay within the law and carry the biggest thing you can handle.
Terrier

I understand what you're saying about the law, but MY law says "Stay alive and safe at all times."

In the event concerning the first bear, we had some Boy Scouts with us and I didn't really want to write a "Dear Sir or Ma'am. I regret to inform you that your son was mauled and then eaten by a brown bear in the Colorado wilderness because I did not want to run afoul of state weapons laws, and therefore wandered into the wilderness armed only with a big stick and some Campbell's soup cans to throw."

:coffee:

[MtGun44]

45 ACP.

Basically, you have a power drill here - need a deep hole each time, not enough horsepower
to get deep and wide, so settle for DEEP. Quantity is good, too. 7-8 deep holes of about
.45 diam will at least give you an advantage in the footrace. . . . . .

Remember, a griz will come over and pound the snot out of you to teach you some manners -
you maybe intruded into his SPACE. A black bear will only attack if he intends to eat you,
with the sow and cubs exception. The advice is to take your licks from the griz but protect
your head and neck, but you gotta fight a black because he won't quit. Not sure I buy the
whole story, but that is what they are selling at the Park Service these days.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive lived in the UP all my life and have hunted and been around bears for all of it. Ive shot them off my back porch and have shooed them away from the yard with kids playing there. Ive have never had a problem even once with one being aggressive other then when wounded. Even with cubs they have allways turned and ran. Ive shot enough of them with handguns to tell you that out of your choises the only one that is even marginaly good enough is your 45acp and although its better then a stick or rock i wouldnt want to count on it to stop a wounded bear. Not even a small one. When im bear hunting i use a minimum of a 44 mag with a heavy hardcast bullet. If you do have a problem you arent going to have time to pick your shot placement and you want something that will penetrate at any angle. Bottom line is if you dont have at least that level of power your better off to leave your handgun holstered and fight with your rifle. Most of the bear up here arent that huge. A good one will run in the 200 lb range but my buddy who guides shot 3 of them in the 4-500 lb class last year and although a bear isnt that hard to kill under normal hunting situations a 500 lb animal of any sort that is riled up can take alot of lead to put down.

[SciFiJim]

Ok, experienced reloaders may call me stupid if needed. My idea, haven't tried it yet, is to have a magazine of "bear rounds" consisting of a slower burning powder that will create a HUGH muzzle blast. The idea is to scare the bear as well as deter with a bullet. I would think that a 4 or 5 foot gout of flame and loud noise with a 230gr stinger in the middle would help stop a bear, especially if repeated 6 or 7 times. These rounds would have to be worked up to carefully and would be hard on a pistol but only be used for bear encounters. Am I on to something or way off base?

[HeavyMetal]

Your not going to get a hugh muzzle flash from a 45 in the day time. Any flash will be so minimal in daylight hours as to be useless as a deterent, at least out of a pistol.

Also not a fan of the 230 loads. I posted a previously about a load using the H&G 68.

I also mentioned a penatration test I ran. In this test two 230 grain loads were also used one commercial remington load and one military ball WCC 91 load.

The hard cast H&G 68 went through the plywood test target and exited, niether ball load left the plywood!

Granted this is a very limited test and with a different lot of powder, commercial loads etc etc I might get a different result. But considering how hard the manufacturers work at maintaining consistancy I don't think so!

If I was "stuck" with a 1911 in this situation the mentioned Unique load would go in the gun without hesitation!

[insanelupus]

Recluse,

When did you have the run ins with the bears? I didn't realize they had brown bears in Colorado. Unless you meant a brown phase of a black bear.

[Recluse]

Recluse,

When did you have the run ins with the bears? I didn't realize they had brown bears in Colorado. Unless you meant a brown phase of a black bear.

The Colorado incident was in 1987, summer, when I stupidly got talked into helping my partner (in the marshals) take his Boy Scout troop camping up in the Valecito Wilderness. I know about as much about bears as Obama knows about casting boolits. All I know is the bear I shot was big and it wasn't black. Have no idea what a "phase" in a bear is.

The other bear I shot was while I was camping by myself up in northwest Wyoming. The bear was big and it wasn't black and it would not leave me and the dog alone no matter what we did. It paid for that.

I've seen small black bears when up in Maine. I don't like them much either. In fact, I don't like ANY bear when it gets right down to it.

:coffee:

[Just Duke]

One of my less exspensive life insurance policies for the wife and I.

Bad bear=Big gun 500 S&W with 500 grain bullets.



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/L31.jpg

[insanelupus]

Hunting black bears over the past few years I have earned a whole new respect for them . Kinda like the lil' buggers!

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot bear with a centerfire rifle and had another bear that was with it walk over and smell the carcus so i wouldnt count on scarig them away with noise.
Ok, experienced reloaders may call me stupid if needed. My idea, haven't tried it yet, is to have a magazine of "bear rounds" consisting of a slower burning powder that will create a HUGH muzzle blast. The idea is to scare the bear as well as deter with a bullet. I would think that a 4 or 5 foot gout of flame and loud noise with a 230gr stinger in the middle would help stop a bear, especially if repeated 6 or 7 times. These rounds would have to be worked up to carefully and would be hard on a pistol but only be used for bear encounters. Am I on to something or way off base?

[BruceB]

Lloyd is correct. FORGET about loud noises doing anything for you with regards to bear defence.

I once walked out of my cabin to confront a big blackie who was rooting-around in the burnt tin cans we were about to dispose of in a place FAR from camp.

My gun was an old-model Super Blackhawk .44 Maggie, stuffed with five rounds (natch!) of max-effort 429244 over 2400....not exactly a "quiet" load. At a range of maybe six feet, the bear stood up eyeball-to-eyeball with me on his hind feet. I fired three rounds into the dirt between his feet, and he thought about that for a short time (seemed longer!), then dropped slowly to all fours, turned and sauntered away from the immediate vicinity.

My pal came out of a nearby cabin to check on the commotion, and I shifted my attention to him for a moment. When I looked back to the bear, he was COMING BACK. With only two rounds left in the Ruger, I fired one just above his back from maybe twenty feet and he re-considered, stepping off the trail into heavy brush and disappearing. I reloaded VERY quickly...with six rounds in the gun this time. I wasn't unduly worried, 'cuz my wife was arriving post-haste with a .30-06.

Noise does NOT impress bears very much. Lead-on-target is what can be relied on.

[shotman]

The S&W 500 with a 4in barrel . It will kill and cook at same time. And the up side you wont care

[JIMinPHX]

I've got friends & family back east that have pretty frequent BB encounters, like having them go through the garbage a few times a week, occasionally napping in the bed of a pickup truck or on the font porch & even pushing in the front screen door of the house, just to wander in & look around.

From what I've seen, penetration is your best friend when it comes to throwing some lead at a bear. Hard cast, FMJ, & some semi-jacketed flat points seem to work well. If you had ever seen a bear after it had been skinned & realized how thick those plates of muscle are, then it would not take much imagination to figure out why.

I am surprised that Larry had such good results from a .45ACP against a bear, but if that is first hand experience, then it is good info to consider. I've never considered any handgun round slower than a .357 or .44mag for that use. I concur with what others have said about a shotgun being a better choice. 12-ga. slugs are very persuasive.

I also agree that chances of you being attacked by a bear without provocation are fairly slim. Probably the most important thing to do in bear country is to keep your food properly stored.

By the way, the black ones CAN climb trees, despite what several people have told me.

[JIMinPHX]

They can be such fun little critters.

[JIMinPHX]

But opinions on the proper way to deal with them do vary.

[Kuato]

The only pistol I have that shoots out a "gout" of flame like the one you want out of a .45, is my .50AE cal Desert Eagle. Loaded with 31gr of H110 & a 335gr boolit. Its impressive, but not 4 feet long... OR my American Derringer M4 Alaskan in 45/70. Now THAT gets about 4 foot flames, but cant use my hand for 3 days after shooting it..

While a big muzzle flash may scare the crap out of the local street thugs, I doubt an angry bear would even flinch...
Minimum IMO is a 44 Mag with heavy cast, but I prefer my 50AE.

If those are your only choices, go with the 45 & cast boolits. And whatever you do, don't spook any bears, they hate that...

[JIMinPHX]

Also,
If you do end up having to shoot at a bear, remember that the heart/lung region on them is pretty low compared to most other animals. Keep your shots just a little ways up from where the chest points to the ground when they are on all fours.

[Blammer]

Borrow a 44 magnum. Buy some good ammo for it. That's what I'd do.

[MT Gianni]

A grizzley bear came through a window into a home in Lake County, Montana 4 years ago. A small one, he weighed around 275 lbs. His entry was stopped by a 45 ACP 230 jhp with death occuring in the living room. AIRC 5 shots were fired out of a 7 rd magazine.

[Jaybird62]

I think that world record Kodiak bear was killed with a .22LR, a Hornet or some such pipsqueak round. It doesn't mean that the handguns on your list are adequate medicine in a bear fight. Most of my bear encounters are on the AT on the Tennessee/North Carlolina border during spring turkey season. A 3-inch turkey load at a few feet acts just like a slug.

[Down South]

Best defence, I wouldn't want to carry anything less than a 44 mag. I do own a 460 mag but Lawd, it's heavy for packing all day. A large bore Guide Gun would be even better.

[Larry Gibson]

A grizzley bear came through a window into a home in Lake County, Montana 4 years ago. A small one, he weighed around 275 lbs. His entry was stopped by a 45 ACP 230 jhp with death occuring in the living room. AIRC 5 shots were fired out of a 7 rd magazine.

That's a point we need to remember, there is a difference between "hunting" firearms and what is required for defense.

Regards the BBs I killed with the .45 ACP., even though i was hunting I never said I shot only once. We always see most responses to questions like this apparently based on the concept of a "1 shot kill" especially with handguns. Even on deer why do we think we only should shoot 1 shot and then wait for the deer to fall over dead? With handguns I will keep shooting as long as I have a presentable heart/lung shot. Two to three well placed shots with a .357 magnum are a heck of a lot better than one jerked off shot from a .44 magnum. Also 2-3 good hits with the .357 do more damage (kill better) than on shot from a .44 magnum.

Now to those of you who can handle a .44 and shoot it almost as fast as a .357 it does not matter that much. However, the majority of shooters with .44 or larger handguns can not shoot them well at all (can hit the side of a barn with it basically, especially with DA .44s). Those shooters almost always shoot much, much better with a .357 or .41 and have much more confidence in their ability. You have to admit that 2-3 good hits with a .357 or, as in this case, 3-5 good hits with a .45 ACP beat the heck out of a poor hit with a .44 just about every time.

Another point to remember is that big cartridges need big guns. Big guns are big and heavy. Unless contact and perhaps run ins with BBs is a common occurance the big, heavy, bulky handguns usually get left at home or in the rig, that is human nature because the PITA of carrying the big, heavy, bulky handgun begins to outweigh the percieved "need". I've seen that happen way too often, even with CCW guns in city/urban envirnments. Better to have that .25, .32 or .380 in the pocket than that tricked out .45 in the glove box when you go into a stop and rob. The 1st rule of a gunfight is to have a gun.

Same with "defense" for BBs. It doesn't have to be what is needed for "hunting". In this case the M1911 .45 ACP will do because it can do the job and it will more than likely be carried. Just my observations.

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

Larry i can give good argument to your point. Being a crack shot has little advantage in a bear defense situation. If you far enough from a black bear where you need a precise shot you shouldnt be shooting. Any real life nessistiy to put down a black bear is going to come at point blank range and believe me at that distance recoil isnt even a factor and most of the time either is a quick second shot going to matter. Your just going to point and shoot and if it goes down great if not you probably will. I wander the woods with 22s all the time but if i was in a situation where a bad encounter with a bear was on the table and before i go any farther i will say that personaly i think most of these post are bs as bears dont routinely attack people. Its about as rare as getting struck by lightning. But if iit were me and it did happen id want a minimum of a 44 mag shooting heavy hardcast bullets. Ive just seen to many bear and pigs shot with 357s and 41s and even 45 acps to know that if you hit them right they die but usually its after they run off and if there running toward you there going to mess you up good in the couples seconds they have to live. We did some charging bear shoots at the linebaugh seminar and from a run at 25 yards its a rare man that can put two kill zone shots on one in that distance and most cant do one and those are some very experienced handgunners were talking about.
That's a point we need to remember, there is a difference between "hunting" firearms and what is required for defense.

Regards the BBs I killed with the .45 ACP., even though i was hunting I never said I shot only once. We always see most responses to questions like this apparently based on the concept of a "1 shot kill" especially with handguns. Even on deer why do we think we only should shoot 1 shot and then wait for the deer to fall over dead? With handguns I will keep shooting as long as I have a presentable heart/lung shot. Two to three well placed shots with a .357 magnum are a heck of a lot better than one jerked off shot from a .44 magnum. Also 2-3 good hits with the .357 do more damage (kill better) than on shot from a .44 magnum.

Now to those of you who can handle a .44 and shoot it almost as fast as a .357 it does not matter that much. However, the majority of shooters with .44 or larger handguns can not shoot them well at all (can hit the side of a barn with it basically, especially with DA .44s). Those shooters almost always shoot much, much better with a .357 or .41 and have much more confidence in their ability. You have to admit that 2-3 good hits with a .357 or, as in this case, 3-5 good hits with a .45 ACP beat the heck out of a poor hit with a .44 just about every time.

Another point to remember is that big cartridges need big guns. Big guns are big and heavy. Unless contact and perhaps run ins with BBs is a common occurance the big, heavy, bulky handguns usually get left at home or in the rig, that is human nature because the PITA of carrying the big, heavy, bulky handgun begins to outweigh the percieved "need". I've seen that happen way too often, even with CCW guns in city/urban envirnments. Better to have that .25, .32 or .380 in the pocket than that tricked out .45 in the glove box when you go into a stop and rob. The 1st rule of a gunfight is to have a gun.

Same with "defense" for BBs. It doesn't have to be what is needed for "hunting". In this case the M1911 .45 ACP will do because it can do the job and it will more than likely be carried. Just my observations.

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

I think that world record Kodiak bear was killed with a .22LR, a Hornet or some such pipsqueak round.

The account I read said it was an off duty ranger of some sort with a 7mm Mag BAR. Perhaps we are talking about two different incidents.

[Larry Gibson]

Lloyd

I appreciate your comments but we're not talking about taking "crack shots”. We're talking about being able to put rounds where they count, head and throat area. You make my point by stating "linebaugh seminar and from a run at 25 yards its a rare man that can put two kill zone shots on one in that distance and most cant do one and those are some very experienced handgunners were talking about." I'd guess they were using heavy recoiling magnum revolvers (?) and they (the very experienced) had a hard time doing it.

However I'd bet most any shooter can put 7 shots into that charging bear from 25 yards with a M1911, even those with minimal shooting skills. I say that because I've instructed too many LEOs and military personnel who could do just that on a E or IPSC silhouette "running" at them from 25 meters.

I also don't subscribe to "You’re just going to point and shoot". Anyone who is untrained may do that put anyone who has any proper training will at least be using a point shoulder technique which is plenty enough accurate at the ranges we're discussing. I've had totally untrained men and woman with minimal proper training with a M1911 who had some previous shooting skills do just fine on the charging target. The point is 5-7 hits with a .45 beats the heck out of 1-2 misses just pointing shooting a mondo magnum and depending on luck for a hit.

As to "if it goes down great if not you probably will" I contend that if you get 5-7 good shots from a .45 ACP on said BB even if you "go down" he probably won't do as much to you as if you got 1 really good miss with a S&W 500. There are many such survival stories from just that bear attack (other animals also) scenario. You are correct about BB attacks being rare, they are. But there are a lot of BB attacks and other animal attacks beaten off and "turned" by just one or two shots from what you obviously consider "inadequate" handguns.

Again let me state we are not, or at least should not, be thinking in terms of "one shot stop". We should be thinking that hits count. If a person can not shoot a magnum well then multiple hits from a lesser handgun will serve that person better.

"If it happens to me", as you say, I'd want a rifle not any handgun, preferably my .375 H&H or my 450-400-70, perhaps a M60 with a 600 round belt. Plus I'd like 3 - 4 others along with me equally armed. However, what I'd like and what I've got are probably going to be two different things unless I'm specifically hunting BBs. Many times I'm hunting squirrels in prime BB country in NE Oregon. I’m usually armed with a .22 Hornet or .223 for a rifle and carrying my Combat Commander or a Ruger SS in .32 H&R. If I get crosswise with a BB I'm going to use everything I have and not really give a darn about what I'd like to have. If I have that CC with me then BB is going to eat 8 rounds as I'll not stop shooting even if I'm "down".

I will concede to you Lloyd that when in Alaska I carry my Anaconda .44 (4" barrel) as I can put out 6 shots about as quick and accurate as I can 8 shots with the CC. However, I work at it and so do you. Most who ask this question do not “work at it” or they would not be asking the question, now would they?

Of the 3 handguns hoosierlogger asked about to carry for BB defense the M1911 is the best choice. I stand by that answer. I did not say the M1911 is the best handgun for all to use. I said it was hoosierlogger's best choice of the 3 and it is. I also believe it may be a better choice for many who are not capable with a big bore magnum revolver. I've given my reasons for that also.

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

I would point out, when a bear is facing you, the brain pan is only about 2" wide, even on a big bear.

[leftiye]

I'm with Lloyd, it's gonna be point and shoot in that panic ridden second or two. Good news is - point and shoot is often quite accurate at close range.

[Recluse]

I would point out, when a bear is facing you, the brain pan is only about 2" wide, even on a big bear.

I would point out that when a bear is facing ME, my family-jewels are only about 2" below my tonsils, big bear or not.

:coffee:

[1Shirt]

Lots of words of wisdom in the responses here, and a bit of humor to boot. If it were strictly for defense only, and as lousy as I am with a hand held, I would opt for a short bbl 12g, w/00 Buck followed by slug, followed by 00 Buck etc. Lastly, I would not provoke the critter. I shot my Kodiak at less than 25 yards with a 375H&H, a head on shot, center chest, blt. lodged just under the tail, and it went about 300 yds. In the Brooks range in Alaska, I stood about 75 yds from a good sized griz that was in the way I wanted to go to start up for sheep. It would make a short run into maybe 50 yds or so, stand on it's hind legs, and then drop down and start digging for what ever it was eating, and then wander off out to 75-100 yds. This went on for about 45 minutes, and then I guess it got tired of screwing with us, and wandered off in the opposite direction. There never was a real charge for which I am thankful. On the Alution Chain, I had a big Kodiak top a rise about 20-or so yards from our tent, and think it was as much supprised as I was, but probably not nearly so fearful. I was the day befor season opened, and the guns were in the tent. The bear hightailed it out of there pronto, and for those who have never seen a bear run, believe me they can run like a horse for at least a few hundred yards. In my opinion, most bears are like most humans, and that is just plain unpredictable. The few blacks that I have seen were happy to high tail it in the opposite direction, but you never know, and it is foolish to take chances. Ya, guess if given the option, of what was listed I would also go with the 1911, but it sure wouldn't be with ball ammo, and if it was necessity, when I finished shooting there would be an empty magazine.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

RE the question asked on this thread.

I doesn't make a difference what "we'd" carry or what we'd rather have or what we think would be best or any thing else' Hoosierlogger asked what would be the best between 3 handguns and we had 3 hours to respond. I don't see him stopping at Joe's Gunshop on the way to the airport and buying a new hog leg of our choosing and desires. Hoosierlogger had a 9mm, a .38 Special and a M1911 to choose from. The question was "which we thought was best". Not what we'd like or wanted but which of those 3 we thought was best. Hoosierlogger was leaning toward the M1911 and I agreed with him. Obviously several of disagree with me and agree with someone else. Anyone else care to answer the question instead of hallucinate? Which of the 2 remaining (9mm and .38 Special), since you disagree with me and Hoosierlogger's pick of the M1911, would you pick and why?

It would really be nice if we could stick to the question without going off on tangents critisizing someone else's response to the question. Thank you 1Shirt for sticking to the question and addressing it with an answer.

Larry Gibson

[atr]

took my sister over to Montana a couple of years ago...she wanted to catch a "big fish"
camping out in the bitteroot mountains...lots of bear.....had my 12 GA double with slugs...I figured I would pull both triggers at once and then run like .........

[badgeredd]

I'd like to point out that an individual walking about a Michigan woods with a shotgun loaded with buckshot or slugs in the off season will likely be trying to save his butt if a local DNR Officer sees him. Like Larry said, the question was limited to what was available for defense. Personally, whether it is only my perception or not, CAST BOOLITS have got to be better than ball ammo. Ball ammo was made to be "humane" which I doubt would be any concern in my mind if I were facing a POed bear, black, brown, or pink with polka dots. As has been mentioned, a bear encounter in Michigan is very unlikely to have any consequence....but I would much rather be armed with a 45 than under gunned with a whimpy for game cartridge or not armed. Of the three choices, I'd still pick the 1911. If I were going, it would be a 44 mag or a 45 LC in a blackhawk. I can shoot both decently so my confidence in the firearm would be there.

A couple added thoughts....

Edd

[leftiye]

So, Larry you wouldn't give him any other advise than which of his guns to carry if you thought maybe than any of them might be worse than nothing? Just answer his question and say "It was nice knowing you"? I'd use the pepper spray before I'd pizz a bear off with a 9mm or a 38 Special. Or is this a hallucination too? BTDT

[Lloyd Smale]

guys have a point any gun is better then a sharp stick or a can of pepper spray.

[Bob Krack]

Time's many times over but I say 1911 with cast SWC and I don't have to think twice about!
Bob

[Larry Gibson]

So, Larry you wouldn't give him any other advise than which of his guns to carry if you thought maybe than any of them might be worse than nothing? Just answer his question and say "It was nice knowing you"? I'd use the pepper spray before I'd pizz a bear off with a 9mm or a 38 Special. Or is this a hallucination too? BTDT

leftiye

Your argument is a moot point. Hoosierlogger didn't ask for "other advise". He gave a list of 3 handguns he had, asked which we thought was best of those 3 handguns and we had 3 hours to give that advise. That was the question so any excuses on tangent discussions is a moot point also.

My point here is a couple of us answered the question hoosierlogger asked and got a raft of criticism for our answers as we didn't cough up advise to use a shotgun, large bore handgun or anything else. We stuck to the question with our answer and even provided our reasons for that answer. There was no need for the "raft" if the critics would have read the question. Hoosierloggers question was not open ended about "what is best for bear defense". It was a specific question. Those of us who answered the question within hoosierloggers parameters should not have been subjected to the criticism. Critics sticking to the question would be a lot more polite.



Larry Gibson

[clearwater]

Another link on old USFS research on bear guns. Should probably be bear cartridges as
they used factory ammo but different bullets for different rifles. More frangible bullets did
poorly even in the magnum rifles.

The penetration on some weaker rounds was interesting.
Buckshot didn't do so well. 30-06 was liked.Penetration of a colt 45 equaled a 375 H&H.

www.bluemountainlodge.com/docs/hunting/bear_guns.pdf

[S.R.Custom]

HoosierLogger left on Saturday, and well, here it is Wednesday and we haven't heard from him. You don't s'pose he got eaten, do you?

[dubber123]

HoosierLogger left on Saturday, and well, here it is Wednesday and we haven't heard from him. You don't s'pose he got eaten, do you?

Ever the ray of sunshine, aren't we? :-D

[S.R.Custom]

Well, it would settle the argument as to the .45's efficacy as deepwoods bear repellant. Not that I'm hoping for a mauling, I'm just sayin... [smilie=1:

[JIMinPHX]

Do you think that somewhere in the upper peninsula there is a pile of bear scat with a bunch of .45's in it?

He probably took the week off before the holiday weekend & is still up there fishing while we all sit around & second guess what he should be doing.

That would make him the smart one. ;)

[OBXPilgrim]

My brother had a big black bear come in on him when bow hunting. It smelled him & sat up the hill - out of range - and snapped it's jaws at him.

Next time, I went with him. I carried a .22 LR pistol - he told me he didn't think that would be much good against the bear - told him I just had to be sure I could outrun HIM - that's what the .22 was for.

Seriously, I carried my 45 1911 everytime I went into the woods - private land in NC. Wasn't exactly within the legal plan NC sets up (no firearms w/bow hunting), but then again we weren't DEER hunting, we were HOG hunting at the time (no restrictions on that). :kidding:

Had some hard cast 230s stoked in it and felt comfortable with it.

Of the original courses, definetly go 1911.

[S.R.Custom]

...He probably took the week off before the holiday weekend & is still up there fishing while we all sit around & second guess what he should be doing.

That would make him the smart one. ;)

I dunno... this time of year the U.P. still has 19 feet of snow on the ground... :-P

That said, the bears are probably still hibernating. 8-)

[softpoint]

:shock:Although I have a 454 freedom, and its accurate,and I shoot it well, and I own several .44 magnums, both double action and single action,And, I'd rather have almost anything but a handgun in a full blown bear assualt,
Having said all that, I might pick my 10mm Glock to go with me. I believe the 10 will penetrate into a bear's brain pan at close range. And that is probably what you need to do to stop an attack in time to keep from being seriously injured.
My other reasons are that the Glock gives me many more chances in a shorter period of time to deliver it's bullet into said brain pan.
And as long as I can keep my hand around that pistol, I may be able to keep squeezing off rounds. As a last resort if a person is able, he may even have that hand jammed into the bears mouth and still shoot.
So, given the choices this man has, I'd take the 1911 with the hardest, non expanding bullet I could find.
Accurate fire from a 5 or 6 shot revolver with a longer recovery time may not be easy when the pucker factor is maxed out.:holysheep

[JIMinPHX]

this time of year the U.P. still has 19 feet of snow on the ground... :-P


It's still that cold up there now? I was in Port Huron a few weeks ago & the weather there was pretty nice. I didn't realize that the climate across that state varied that much.

[GabbyM]

I tracked a wounded bear up in the UP for hours armed with a S&W 38 Chief snubby.
The guy that shot it said it was down and we were going out to haul it in . But that dead bear jumped up and ran off. That all started around 10 pm and ended around 3 am. I stayed close to the guys who had real guns. I own a 44 mag revolver now. It's kind of heavy but so what.

[Lloyd Smale]

hell the snows gone now and will probably stay gone for at least 2 months ;)

[oldhickory]

About the only bears I have around me are a few small "blackies". nothing much to worry about. All of the sudden in the past year or so there's been mountain lions spotted on the ridge though, (I beleive the insurance companies are bringing them in to deal with the over population of deer, a lot of car vs. deer around here). I'm sure my old .45 Colt New Service or S&W 629-3 are up to the task of either a blackie or nittany lion. It's not myself that concerns me, rather my dogs, they don't like cats of any size and I doubt they would back down from a mtn. lion. When we go to the ridge, the M70 fwt .308 goes too, chances are a lion would be out of handgun range and I ain't Elmer Keith! Game laws be damned, I'll protect my dogs!

[wiljen]

After a number of attacks on hikers and campers in Alaska, the Department of Fish & Game released the following advisory:

We advise that outdoorsmen wear noisy little bells on their brightly colored clothing so as not to startle bears. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear. It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity.

Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between Black Bear and Grizzly Bear droppings. Black bear droppings are smaller and contain lots of berries, leaves, insects etc. Grizzly bear droppings are brightly colored, have little bells in it, may contain .38 caliber boolits from a chief's special and smell like pepper.


PS: check grizzly bear scat for drivers licenses or other identifying features, we may be able to account for a few lost members.

[JIMinPHX]

wiljen,
See post #29 on page 2 of this thread. ;-)

[wiljen]

wiljen,
See post #29 on page 2 of this thread. ;-)

Yep, ya beat me to it Jim.

[leftiye]

"
Well, it would settle the argument as to the .45's efficacy as deepwoods bear repellant. Not that I'm hoping for a mauling, I'm just sayin... Supermag"

That's what I meant about just answering Hoosierlogger's question being tantamount to saying "It's been nice knowing you". I would probly try to kill a bear (hunt the bear) with a .45 ACP. They (including Brownies) have been killed with .22s many times, but the guy who asked about the bear killing the shooter before the bear figured out it was dead (and quitting its attack) - had the right question when it comes to an attacking bear.

[JIMinPHX]

"
...They (including Brownies) have been killed with .22s many times...

Do you happen to have some factual references on that?

[Bret4207]

Trapped bears have been killed with 22's and there are stories of guys unloading 22 autos into the lungs of bears of all varieties and killing the bear. Not the ideal weapon, but ya do whatcha got to do!

This time of year I'd worry alot less about bear attacks and more about walking into a pot plantation. Lot work planting all that cannabis, can't have tourists walking them into the ground. But a bear attack sure makes for interesting dreaming.

[hoosierlogger]

Well we got back last night. We saw no bears did alot of trail riding and picked a few morels. Didnt see any bears, but saw some tracks and a den near the cabin. The black flies were pure hell to deal with. You cant get anything done without a head net on up there.

[JIMinPHX]

GREAT AVATAR!!! by the way hoosierlogger.

That is what I think it is...right? It's a pile of game animals laid out to spell "peta"?

Oh man, I want a copy of that so I can print it 8 x 10 & hang it over my desk. That is classic.

Glad that you had a good trip,
Jim