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View Full Version : Victory and Defeat - A day at the range



Char-Gar
03-03-2006, 02:10 PM
A nice morning in deep South Texas found me at the 50 yard bench. I had two guns I had never fired, one new powder and one new application for an old powder.

FIRST up to bat was my cut down Krag. The bullets was the group buy 311407 and the powder charge was 30/H335. Groups were five shot, nice and round and averaged 1.25". When every things works right this rifle will do 1" or 2 MOA. I have never been able to beat that 2 MOA barrier with this rifle.

I was quite happy with these groups for a new bullets from a six hole mold, with no special slection and a SWAG load of a new to me powder. The load has enough snap for deer, but was still a comfortable load to shoot and easy on the 105 year old rifle.

SECOND up was my, new to me, 1959 vintage Winchester 94 in 32 Win. Spl. The bullets was the RCBS 170 GC and the powder was the same 30/H335. Experience has taught me, these saddle carbines are quirky about how they are held on the bench and results were as expected.

3 shot groups of 1.2" were the order of the day and when fivers were fired, the groups opened up to 1.5. This is 2 - 3 MOA for fast shucking of rounds and about what I expect from these rifles. This load is full snort and has plenty of snap and on both ends. I was glad for the recoil pad the previous owner had installed. He also added a good Lyman 66 rear receiver sight.

THIRD us was my 1954 vintage Winchester 70 in 30-06 and wearing a Weaver K-3 scope. I have never found a load that would not shoot well in this rifle. It is all just a degree of good.

The load was 16/2400 and the bullets were some 20 year old 311467U cast from Lino and sized .309. I sized the top two bands to .300.

I fired four five shot groups and they measured .89, .90, .91 and 1.20. The largest group was produced when I elevevated the muzzle and bump the but before each shot to settle the powder next to the primer. The rest of the rounds were fed from the magazine with no thought to powder position.

The bullets were not inspected, or weighed. They were just grabbed at random from a box of aout 1 K that have been ratteling around since 1984. I think I am going to select and weight some and give this rifle a better chance to shine.

FOURTH was my new (to me) Thompson Center Contender is 7mm TCU. This is where my bubble was burst.

I loaded some 154 Hornaday Spire points in some necked up LC-02 cases with 23/H335 for the powder charge.

The first round went BANG and was about two feet high and a foot and a half to the left. I cranked the rear sight down and the next round went BANG and droped about half the needed distance. The third round went "click" and continued to do so after about three strikes. The fourth roung went BANG and it was click..click..click thereafter for about eight more rounds when I quit.

The primary cause is "insufficient smack" on the primer. Now what the secondary cause if I don't know.

1) Could be the cases. I have read somewhere not to use GI cases in these pistols. The primers did go sorta deep. Maybe the primer pockets are a little deepr to allow for the crimp and use in full auto weapons. I really don't know Jack about these 22 Govt. cases.

2) Might be the "go-round gizzie" in the hammer. You know that little thing that rotates to convert from center to rim fire. It seems to just spin around at will. I notice a little hole in the side of the hammer which corresponds with a hole in the gizzie. I wonder if there is supposed to be some kinda little pin to hold this thing steady and in the right spot.

3) Or it might be some kinda spring or who knows what kinda problem. I really am dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to this pistol and this round. I guess I am going to have to get up to speed on these strange new things.

I do know that little round kicks lile a "sum-buck" in that pistol. The recoil slammer my elbow into the bench. Now a fun pistol to shoot. It is going to have to be better behaved with cast bullets at a lower velocity if it is going to find a place in my heart.

So I had three victories and one defeat. But that doesn't bother me. When all goes well at the range that kinda scares me. It means something else is going to hell in a handbasket before my day is done. It is good to get it over with and know what it is.

Underclocked
03-03-2006, 02:22 PM
You might check out http://www.bellmtcs.com/forum/index.php?s=& for some help with that Contender.

Junior1942
03-03-2006, 03:41 PM
Here's http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/7tcu.htm an article on the 7mm TCU using the 154 Hornady SP among other bullets.

On the Wall Of Honor in my reloading room hangs a 5 shot, 150 yard, 7mm TCU group using the 154 Hornady and Varget. The group measures 15/16".

7br
03-03-2006, 04:19 PM
Below the ejector is a spring loaded domahickey. The older style are solid and the new style is split vertically. If yours is not split, it might be causing you problems. Quick call to TC and they will get a new assembly one the way. I had a similiar problem with a .22 barrel.

By the way, I am shooting an 18" 7tcu carbine that I think will be the cat's meow for a kids first deer rifle. Will shoot an honest inch group if I do my part. I recieved a ton of necked up brass with the barrel. A lot of it is military and I haven't had a problem with it.

Trailblazer
03-03-2006, 04:25 PM
One possible cause of misfires in the Contender is a dirty hammer block. I had that happen one time. The primers would be dented but not enough to fire. I think what was happening is the hammer block would hang up right at the edge of the hammer. So when the hammer hit it, it would push it down but the firing blow was cushioned. Anyway a thorough cleaning fixed it.

Char-Gar
03-03-2006, 06:01 PM
Junior1942 - Thanks for the link..good article.

7br - My do-hickie is split or at least has a groove in it.

Trailblazer - I took Ye Olde Brake Cleaner and sprayer the front and back of the firing pin/pins. I then pull the bullets from three rounds that had gone click this morning and steped out into the garage. All three went BANG and the cat freaked!

So..I guess you broke the code and I thank you for it.


Now what can you guys do about that recoil..it is a total bitch! It is way past anything I would call fun!

However, when I think about it in a rational sense, the ballistics put this round in the 30-30 catagory (154 gr. bullet at over 2K fps) and a 3.5lb 30-30 would not be fun to fire with one hand. Just seems so out of porportion for that itty-bitty cute little round.

Junior1942
03-03-2006, 06:14 PM
>(154 gr. bullet at over 2K fps)

If you're getting 2,000 fps + with a 154 gr Hornady in a 7mm TCU you're using way more than 23 grs H335.

slughammer
03-03-2006, 06:15 PM
Now what can you guys do about that recoil..it is a total bitch! It is way past anything I would call fun!


Best I can do is to have you come up and shoot my buddies Encore in 308. We're both experienced shooters, but with that thing we had to alternate shooting 3 shot groups for working up a load. Funny thing is recoil is not even noticeable in the field.

I'm sure a few shots from the 308 will have you thinking the 7TCU is a pop gun. Trust me, you'll thank me later... :holysheep

carpetman
03-03-2006, 06:32 PM
Chargar---My do-hickie is split or atleast has a groove in it. Well I always thought well urrr uhh--never mind. Anyways that's too much information.

44man
03-03-2006, 06:33 PM
I can't believe that you think the 7 TCU has recoil. It is a toy! What would you do with a 45-70 or one of the other large bore calibers?

Char-Gar
03-03-2006, 06:57 PM
Sorry boys..I guess I am a wienie... if that thing is a toy, I am not old enough to play with toys. What about a 45-70? I would just as soon have my teeth pulled with pliars than shoot on of those in a handgun.

Well..I don't actualy know if it was 2K that was just a SWAG.

Lord..it is confession time here on this board! I guess I have about humbled myself enough. I had better not tell you about twisting off the screw head that holds the go-round gizzie in the hammer.

Oh the shame..the shame!

Scrounger
03-03-2006, 07:17 PM
Chargar, I have about 10 years of experience with the Contender and I know what your problem is: your round is just a little too long, either at the shoulder or by the bullet seated out too far and preventing the round from seating in the chamber completely. A few thousandths is enough to keep the barrel from closing enough to release the transfer bar. That is wgy the round will go off on the 5th-6th-7th try. I know you have to break open the action and close it before each attempt to fire it. This procedure tends to force the round in a little bit more each time you do it; eventually the action closes enough to release the transfer bar and it fires. Try seating your bullet about 10 thousands deeper. If that don't work, set the shoulder on your case back a little, maybe an eighth of a revolution. I've dealt with your problem many times. You'll soon develop a feel for how much resistance you should feel when you close the action on a round. This is one reason so many people prefer rimmed cartridges in this action.

45nut
03-04-2006, 02:51 AM
Scrounger is heading toward the light on the misfires. Very often people give in and call the T/C a troublesome design and sell their guns,,,and I will buy them. I am very fond of the Contenders having 5 frames here and well over a dozen barrels from 22lr to 45-70,,and in the Encore it's even better,I have 4 Encores and another dozen barrels for that design. The Encore is really capable of handling some serious cartridges while I think of the Contender as a fine old friend. With some attention the T/Cs can put rifle shooters to shaking their heads and mumbling as they walk away,not everyone "get's it" however.
The 7TCU is a widely favored round in the Contender and quite capable of serious accuracy and certainly capable of slaying deer and similar critters. Recoil is user-determined,practice will be your friend there. Having some experience with boomers in handguns here I find the 7tcu mild to timid. For serious recoil the minimum for me is the 454 Casull,on up the power scale is my set of Twin Encores in 458 Win Mag and 50 Alaskan. 500gr boolits from either does walk up the power scale,but with practice,,yes and the brakes,both are quite manageable.
http://www.gunloads.com/modules/Gallery/albums/Feburary-Photo-Contest/45nut.jpg
Success will arrive if you determine it is right for you to continue,and sometimes the journey is most enjoyable. Acheiving success should not be too easy,should it? Wouldn't that cheapen the experience?

Char-Gar
03-04-2006, 08:07 AM
Scrounger.... I will do as you suggest, but let me ask a question so I understand what is going on.

When I look at my contender I don't see any kind of "transfer bar". I have two spring loaded firing pins in the frame and a rotating hammer nose to choose between the two firing pins (rim or center fire). Unless there is something internal inside of the frame, I don't see what you are talking about. Please explain.

Unless I face off the bottom of the FL die or take some material off the top of the shell holder, I can't set the shoulder back. I took my RCBS FL die and set it down on the shell holder to take the snap out of the linkage and formed my cases.

I can seat the bullets down some..that should be no problem.

I can't seem to find on the web a schematic so I can get an idea of what the inside of these things looks like and how the parts come together.

Trailblazer
03-04-2006, 10:04 AM
I don't know what the transfer bar is either. But, my Contender has a hammer block that drops when the trigger is pulled. The hammer block is between the hammer and the frame. It's a little flat piece of steel that fits in a slot. Mine was gunked up from 15 years of hunting and silhouette and just collecting dust. To see it, cock the action and then hold the hammer back while you pull the trigger. If you look down in front of the hammer you will see it drop when you pull the trigger.

The hammer block is also linked to the locking bolt so if the case is to long and the locking bolt is not fully engaged the hammer block won't drop. Standard practice is to open and close the action with authority in case of a misfire. I have the habit of snapping the action closed from shooting cast bullets in the TC. If you have a tight bore rider for example it takes a little extra force to close the action all the way.

Scrounger
03-04-2006, 10:32 AM
I must confess that I was probably wrong in using the term 'transfer bar'. I am not that familiar with the insides of the contender to describe the safety device that prevents the gun from firing unless the barrel is closed to a certain degree. The problem with too long a round not firing does exist and I have had to find the proper point on several calibers to make it work. I would not alter my dies; if seating the bullet a little deeper doesn't work, I would send the gun back to Thompson for evaluation/repair. There are other issues that could be causing your problem. Is this a new action? Break-in could be the problem, it may get better with a little use. Their Customer Service is top-notch. Do you have another barrel? Trying a different barrel/caliber would show you if the problem is barrel related or strictly in the action. If you can, borrow a barrel and a few rounds to try. If you don't mind paying the shipping costs, I'd be happy to send you one of my pistol barrels to try. I have .223 Rem and .357 Maximum (you can use .38 Special, .357 Mag, or .357 Max in it). I have gotten rid of most of my pistol barrels, the recoil and muzzle blast is too much for me. They are a lot more pleasant in 21 inch carbine barrels. I have a 21 inch .30-30 barrel you could try but it is awkward without a buttstock.

Scrounger
03-04-2006, 10:37 AM
Link to parts diagram: http://www.gunsworld.com/exploded/tcconder.htm

JSH
03-04-2006, 10:38 AM
Chargar, I have been fooling with TC's for a day or two myself. After reading all of the above I believe you may have the exact opposite going on. Rather than the case too long I think you may have the shoulder pushed back to far. My thinking on this is that thye wouldn't fire until after you pulled the bullet. When you pulled the bullet it may have stretched the neck back out closer to proper headspace.
Another thought, you may also have a weak hammer spring. I used to say that was a bunch of gawf myself. I started having a few misfires then it got progressivley worse, swapped in a new hammer spring, problem solved.
The 7TCU is a darn fine caliber IMHO. I have slung more FLGC's through one than any other caliber I have ever owned. H335 may work, but I always seemed to have my best luck with AA2015 and 4895.
I will say that the LC brass makes good cases, but you may want to anneal before fire forming to get the shoulder to blow out nicely. If you shoot a full max load you will need to bumpt the shoulder back. If you are shooting a medium to mild load you can get by quite a while with just neck sizing or partial FL sizing.
My gun rack looks kind of naked without a 7TCU and a 270. I traded my 7TCU off on a 357 max for a project I have in mind. As a mater of fact I like the 7TCU so well I have an XP100 action just sitting here patiently waiting on a barrel in 7TCU to get it put together. As to the 270, I believe a Savage 110 will fit the bill for that one.
Jeff