reloader 7 in revolver rounds?

[singleshotbuff]

Gentlemen,

I read in another thread a mention of using Reloader 7 in the 45 Colt with heavy (300gr) cast bullets. I could find no data to support this on Alliants website. Can someone please verifiy that I read this correctly and pass along any data for this? If this is true, it would seem to make RE7 an even more versatile powder to keep in the inventory.

Thanks

SSB

[Bass Ackward]

Gentlemen,

I read in another thread a mention of using Reloader 7 in the 45 Colt with heavy (300gr) cast bullets. I could find no data to support this on Alliants website. Can someone please verifiy that I read this correctly and pass along any data for this? If this is true, it would seem to make RE7 an even more versatile powder to keep in the inventory.

Thanks

SSB

SSB,

Yea, RL7 has been used in 45 Colt and 44 Mag by me. Felix just finished some testing with it too.

I would not recommend it unless you have at least 7 1/2" barrels though. Quickload can figure any data and provide pressure info. All you need to do is use the PM feature and contact me off line and I will tell you what info I need from you.

[felix]

Not only longer barrel, you need heavy boolits in cases with lots of capacity. RL7 is slightly faster than 680 in the 45 colt case, but the former burns cleaner, and the latter much, much cheaper to purchase. A toss up, therefore, between the two powders. If your contemplated case cannot hold at least 20 grains of powder with the boolit of choice, forget using these two powders no matter how heavy the boolits are. The 44-40 case is even bigger than the 45 colt case making the former case size even better for using these two powders. The downside is that the 44-40 case is not as tough as the 45 colt case and therefore would require even more case-head support. It is just too bad these lever guns need such a wide barrel opening for feeding. With better cases and narrower openings we would not even need to consider these two powders, which both exhibit reasonable boolit speed with very low pressure, actually too low for perfect burns. ... felix

[44man]

OK, you two, I just bought a pound of RX 7. As you know, I use 330 gr boolits in the .44, 335 to 347 gr boolits in the .45 and 400 gr's and up in the .475. Now, HOW MUCH POWDER TO START WITH? Stop beating around the bush and tell me what to load.

[StarMetal]

44man

You can only use that Reloader 7 in those new fangled 7 seven shot S&W 357 mag revolvers...that's why they call it Reloader 7. Ain't no good fer scissors tho 44man. :Fire:

Joe

[rugerman1]

44man

You can only use that Reloader 7 in those new fangled 7 seven shot S&W 357 mag revolvers...that's why they call it Reloader 7. Ain't no good fer scissors tho 44man. :Fire:

Joe
So funny,I forgot to laugh [smilie=l:

[felix]

100 percent density! A tad less than touch, but absolutely no crunch. Use the primers you had been using as normal. If half way decent, then compare the same load with the different primer types. You are using strong guns, so don't worry about any pressure problems. ... felix

[44man]

Thanks Felix.
Joe, I can get a lot of powder between the blades. Hope it doesn't recoil much, them points would hurt.

[StarMetal]

44man,

Get a pair of shooting scissor gloves so you don't get powder flash burns pardner. Mount your red dot to the pivot point and that way it's always in the same position when the blades close back. Don't go with too long of blades because then the action is little harder to work. Post your groups.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

RL-7 is pretty new to me. It has done all right in the 25-20 and 32-20 rifle rounds with cast, but I haven't run enough of them through the guns to form an opinion of it yet. It is supposed to provide 100% loading density (to support the boolit atop the powder column) and give 1880's ballistics to the 200-215 grain boolits in the 44-40. I haven't tried that out yet, but it's on the list of things to do this spring--thanks to W30WCF for that info, too.

The internal ballistic environment of the 44-40 in its 125 year old persona and the stomper 45 and 475 calibers couldn't be more different. It would be quite a thing if the powder worked well in both venues.

[felix]

Al, I no longer have any doubt about that. Light boolits in the 44-40 should not stress anything, but you might consider that scenario a waste of that powder speed. Try also a case full of 680, but don't rush out to buy that. Beg or borrow some instead. You might find the trash left over to be too obnoxious. The Buckshot flick comes into play here. But, hey, if the price is right, and if the load shoots good enough, then that would be the powder of choice.... ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

44man,

RL7 has excellent application for plain base bullets in rifles. Or heavy PB bullets in handguns.

This is also the powder I used in a wheeler when I load bullets larger than my throats. This allows me to shoot a wheeler like a rifle. If you are shooting throat diameter, you may need a Magnum primer in a handgun to get the ignition.

I have no qualms about slight compression, but if you send me your bullet length, and OAL in .000, I can tell you pressures / velocities so you know. Just use the PM if you want the data.

[felix]

BA, compression is fine when the boolit moves a little providing some space for the primer to do its thing. Primers tend to get snuffed out when a small grained powder is tight on the primer. Maven proved that some time ago using 860, loosing 50 fps or more out of his Swede. A slight filler of poly balls allows enough spring when compressed just a smite. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

BA, compression is fine when the boolit moves a little providing some space for the primer to do its thing. Primers tend to get snuffed out when a small grained powder is tight on the primer. Maven proved that some time ago using 860, loosing 50 fps or more out of his Swede. A slight filler of poly balls allows enough spring when compressed just a smite. ... felix



Felix,

I have been testing this some. I can tell you is that this phenomenon is powder specific. What I can't tell you is if this is also cartridge specific, since all my compression work so far is with the 44 Mag using PSB filler.

But compression with RL7 does increase pressure in a 44 Mag and can significantly improve the burn rate. Remember, I am using magnum primers in this application anyway.

I have been compressing 2400 with standard Remington 2 1/2 primers the last couple of weeks. As you know, 2400 is a fairly fine ball powder. I can boost pressure by continuing compression levels to the point of adding what works out to be 4,000 psi using velocity as the guage.

Example, 15.4 grains of 2400 is about 16,000 psi with a predicted velocity of 1068. .3cc of PSB will fill all space and just snug the powder up and chronographs at 1054 with as ES of " 4 fps". Even though this fills all space, it only gives me the Quickload predicted velocity as if I had "perfect" ignition. If I compress those same 15.4 grains with .7cc of PSB, I get velocity that is equivalent to 17 grains of 2400 without any filler of 1180 fps. Or what equates to 20,000 psi using Quickload.

How RL7 works in other calibers can only be determined by 44man. :grin:

[felix]

Yeah, John, sounds like the primer is moving the boolit on out some, which is a good thing in this loading. By the way, not to be critical, 2400 is not a ball powder, but it sure does act like one during powder drop, doesn't? ... felix

[w30wcf]

"Light boolits in the 44-40 should not stress anything, but you might consider that scenario a waste of that powder speed. Try also a case full of 680, but don't rush out to buy that."

In a '92 Winchester that would probably be ok, but don't do that in a '73 Winchester!! Pressure would be too much for the action.

RL-7 is the powder of choice for a capacity load in a '73. It will produce b.p. velocities at b.p. pressures in Al's .44-40.

w30wcf

[44man]

I tried the RX-7 in my 45-70 revolver today, 10" barrel. I just shot 3 each from 45 to 50 gr's to see if I had any pressure signs. My boolit is 317 gr's, gas checked. The loads felt strong and all powder appeared to burn. Cases dropped out of the gun when turned up. I was shooting with the frame and butt on bags but since this gun hates to be benched I could not test for accuracy. I will have to shoot it Creedmore. All the groups were the same size and hit the same spot on the paper with all charges, no wide variations.
Even with 50 gr's I still have some room below the boolit.
I will work up slow now to see where I start to stick cases. Once I figure max I will back down, work up to test for accuracy and chronograph them.
Anytime powder gets packed in the flashole it can effect ignition. I use a wad of newspaper over the flashole in my BPCR loads, might try it with this powder.

[44man]

Bass, try it for this; .475 Linebaugh, boolit diameter is .476, length is .923, weight is 411 gr's, OAL is 1.755". It looks like the case holds 28 to 28.5 gr's to the boolit base.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, try it for this; .475 Linebaugh, boolit diameter is .476, length is .923, weight is 411 gr's, OAL is 1.755". It looks like the case holds 28 to 28.5 gr's to the boolit base.


44,

After plugging and chugging, it says that you have 25 grains of useable case capacity using the volume figure of this brass (50 grains of water). Pressure is 24,500 for 1136 out of a 7 1/2" barrel (?) 26 grains jumps pressure to 28,000 and just under 1200 fps. So any chronographing can give you an idea of where you are at.

Actually this load has nice characteristics here along with an 80% burn rate. With a burn rate that high, I suspect that some modest compression will up velocity over that predicted.


Felix,

<<By the way, not to be critical, 2400 is not a ball powder, but it sure does act like one during powder drop, doesn't? ... felix>>

I tell my wife, "That's the beauty of CRS". You're always learning something new .... again and every time, is like the first time. :grin:

I just get one of those looks and she moves off. Danger averted.

[felix]

680 SEEMS to gendrate lower pressure than RL7 at the same volume, representing weights of 28.2 grains for 680 and 25 grains for RL7. ... felix

[w30wcf]

Felix,

My lot of 680 which is probably about 15 years old is definitely faster than RL7.
Perhaps other lots of 680 are slower.

I would definitely not use a capacity load of 680 in a '73 Winchester .38 W.C.F. or .44 W.C.F.

I did purhase a lb. of Accurate 1680 to try about a year ago and it took about 20% more charge weight to = my 680 velocities in my .22 Hornet.

Stay safe.
w30wcf

[44man]

Bass, thanks, it gives me a place to start.

[Savvy Jack]

I love digging up old topics!

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i have to ask why when 110 or 2400 can be bought for the same price and you use less and probably can get more velocity out of it. Seems like a big waste of time and money to me.

[Savvy Jack]

I drive a 1984 CJ-7 with a chevy 350 engine 50 miles a day every day @ 10mpg. .....because I can! Some things you do because you want to, no matter the cost.

[bigboredad]

I drive a 1984 CJ-7 with a chevy 350 engine 50 miles a day every day @ 10mpg. .....because I can! Some things you do because you want to, no matter the cost.

Good answer I like that one

[44man]

guess i have to ask why when 110 or 2400 can be bought for the same price and you use less and probably can get more velocity out of it. Seems like a big waste of time and money to me.
Just fun, I bought the powder for a friends rifle. I have not beaten 296 for accuracy.

[white eagle]

been using rl-7 in my colt getting real good accuracy with it as well
I been shooting out of a 20" h&r carbine

[cbrick]

guess i have to ask why when 110 or 2400 can be bought for the same price and you use less and probably can get more velocity out of it. Seems like a big waste of time and money to me.

I did use it in a 10" 454 for the specific reason of reduced velocity. I had a very accurate load with RX7 that mirrored 44 mag velocity and recoil for silhouette shooting. That all changed with lot #31, never saw a lot #30 but with lot #29 & earlier it worked great. I have no idea really what changed but I heard that there had been a fire at the plant, lot #29 was pre fire and lot #31+ was after the fire. I called them on the phone & tried to explain the huge difference in my loads and the guy said real snotty that there is nothing wrong with their powders and hung up. I never said there was anything wrong with their powders, just wanted some info that I never got. After that I started using IMR 4198 and that worked well.

I don't remember seeing this old thread before but what got my attention was using RX7 in the Colt much less the 44. I had to use a drop tube to get enough 4198 in the 454 case & almost needed to with RX7, I would have thought it more difficult in the Colt case. Very interesting.

Anyway, there are reasons for doing such things.

Rick

[9.3X62AL]

I've tried AA-1680 in the 25-20 and 32-20 rifles with pretty decent results. I don't think I'll be trying it in the 44-40, though. The RL-7 loadings did well, and the SAECO #446 boolit with its crimp groove did away with the need for boolit support by the powder column in the 44-40 carbine. And--wouldn't ya know it--another 44-40 showed up here on Sunday, a Uberti Pasta Colta SAA repro. I'm still doing The Tale Of The Tape bit to check for chamber clearance/boolit release for its .430" throats and W-W brass. Also need to slug the barrel for groove diameter; bore is .418". More of the Fun With Weird Old Calibers that seems a feature of my firearms hobby interest.

[Savvy Jack]

I loaded up a case capacity load with a 45 Colt 454190 and 44-40 210gr 210B LRN. Sorry 44mag, I had to shoot it at only 21feet again :(

In comparison to 4198:

45 Colt Revolver
4198:
Hi 860
Lo 779
Au 823
ES 81
Sd 41

45 Colt Revolver
Reloader 7
Hi 874
Lo 829
Au 858
ES 45
Sd 25

44-40 Large Frame Revolver
4198
210B LRN
Hi 1042
Lo 1025
Au 1032
ES 17
Sd 8

44-40 Large Frame Revolver
Reloader 7
Hi 863
Lo 844
Au 855
ES 19
Sd 9

[felix]

By the way, what happened to John Robinson (BassAckward)? I miss his good postings! ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

i guess i look at it a bit different. Ive got enough loading and casting chores to keep me shooting as is and just dont have the time to play around with loads that arent going to be used for the long run or just arent effiecient. I can get reduced velocity in a 454 with unique and use about a 1/3 the powder or midrange loads with hs6 and use probably half the powder. I look at it like this. Powder is my biggest expense when loading and im sure not going to use a powder that i only get half the amount of ammo from just to say i can do it. Same goes with guys jamming rifle cases full of surplus 50bmg powder just to here it go bang. Never made much sense to me. Ive got enough GOOD uses for 4198 and re7 that im not going to waste it like that.

theres not a thing re7 will do for the 45 colt or even the 454 that cant be done with 2400 alot more efficiently and cheaper, with known pressures and no chance of detonating a gun do to poor ignition. Sorry guys but until it gets to the point that I CANT buy the powders that are proper for the round im using im not going to waste time feeding them powders that just dont make sense. thats just my opinion for what its worth. Some guys just have to try everything and if thats what you enjoy doing, and spending time on the bench is your goal, go for it. Me, i enjoy shooting.

[Savvy Jack]

i guess i look at it a bit different. Ive got enough loading and casting chores to keep me shooting as is and just dont have the time to play around with loads that arent going to be used for the long run or just arent effiecient. I can get reduced velocity in a 454 with unique and use about a 1/3 the powder or midrange loads with hs6 and use probably half the powder. I look at it like this. Powder is my biggest expense when loading and im sure not going to use a powder that i only get half the amount of ammo from just to say i can do it. Same goes with guys jamming rifle cases full of surplus 50bmg powder just to here it go bang. Never made much sense to me. Ive got enough GOOD uses for 4198 and re7 that im not going to waste it like that.

theres not a thing re7 will do for the 45 colt or even the 454 that cant be done with 2400 alot more efficiently and cheaper, with known pressures and no chance of detonating a gun do to poor ignition. Sorry guys but until it gets to the point that I CANT buy the powders that are proper for the round im using im not going to waste time feeding them powders that just dont make sense. thats just my opinion for what its worth. Some guys just have to try everything and if thats what you enjoy doing, and spending time on the bench is your goal, go for it. Me, i enjoy shooting.


Other people playing around with other powders does not have to make sense to you, it is not about you!

[cbrick]

theres not a thing re7 will do for the 45 colt or even the 454 that cant be done with 2400 alot more efficiently and cheaper, with known pressures and no chance of detonating a gun do to poor ignition.

Sorry guys but until it gets to the point that I CANT buy the powders that are proper for the round im using im not going to waste time feeding them powders that just dont make sense.

Me, i enjoy shooting.

After many thousands of rounds in 454 I'm sure glad that you never talked to my revolver and told it that it was supposed to detonate. I'm also delighted that you never told my revolver that I didn't enjoy hitting those 4 inch shoot-off targets at 200 meters with iron sights.

That my doing these things is a waste to you or makes no sense to you or isn't known to you or isn't cheapest to you or wasn't enjoyable to you has no basis in reality.

Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

you guys need to get your pantys untwisted. I never said you were stupid for doing it or even wrong. I just stated the reason I DONT DO IT. It was nothing but my opinion on the subject, not a personal slam on you. Last time i checked i had just as much right to post an opinion here as the next guy. If you dont like it post some legitimate reason why im wrong and ill listen. Bottom line is you can stuff a 4 cyl gmc diesel in a corvette too and it will probably go down the road but that doesnt make it logical. But i guess if diesels are your thing it might be something youd want to throw money at. If you want to do it just to do it, go for it and have fun but in my opinion theres better powders to do it with. Bottom line is you do what you want and so will I but theres sure no reason to make this personal.

[cbrick]

I never said you were stupid for doing it or even wrong.

Yes you did. Blatantly!


Ive got enough GOOD uses for 4198 and re7 that im not going to waste it like that.

YES, you did say I am wasting powder. Zero waste, very effective loads. Are very effective loads a waste to you?


time to play around with loads that arent going to be used for the long run or just arent effiecient.

Yes, you did say my loads aren't efficient. I used this load for years, what constitutes the long run to you? The load was extremely efficient.


im sure not going to use a powder that i only get half the amount of ammo from just to say i can do it.

Yes, you said that the only reason I did this was simply to say that I can do it. Don't judge others by yourself. NO load I've ever tested was just to say I can do it but your telling me that's just what I did.


no chance of detonating a gun do to poor ignition.

Yes, you said my handloading is not safe. Perfectly safe loads with excellent brass life. I didn't start this load jumping in blind but your saying I did.


im not going to waste time feeding them powders that just dont make sense.

Yes, you did say I was wrong because to you it makes no sense. The load makes perfect sense. What makes NO sense at all is trying to get long range revolver accuracy with heavy for caliber bullets with tiny charges of fast powder.


Same goes with guys jamming rifle cases full of surplus 50bmg powder just to here it go bang.

What does doing that have to do with this thread? Don't judge others by yourself. I've never even heard of anyone doing that much less know anyone that did.

Rick

[45 2.1]

Not twisted.......... more like knots. I sure didn't see any names or handles in Lloyd's posts to indicate he was talking about anything more than he does. Everyone here does some strange things with their loads, me included. Calm down, you'll live longer.

[Lloyd Smale]

thanks 45 2.1 i didnt see anything other then my opinion in my posts either. Guess id have to ask why if its such a great idea and works so well that alliant themselves dont list loads for the 45 colt and 44 mag with it. As a matter of fact id have to doubt if you can show me one loading manual anywhere that does. I guess im a bit slow as i dont feel im more qualified to decide if its a good idea then the ballistic experts and chemists that produce it. Like ive said all through this. Do whatever floats your boat. I know i will. Rick if i called you stupid anywhere in this thread id sure like to see where that appears. If you took it that way i appologize. Youd probably do better to just read what i write and not try so hard to read between the lines.

[frank505]

A full case of Reloader 7 in a 500 maximum blew the top off. Why? The powder is too slow, the sequence went; primer ignites a little of the powder, pushes bullet forward into throat and STOPS, rest of powder ignites, there is a bore obstruction and parts get launched. This happened to careful reloader and commercial caster, he called me stated the facts, I said the above. He said Ron Reiber at Hodgdon said the same thing. Lloyd, you know of whom I am speaking of.

[Savvy Jack]

A full case of Reloader 7 in a 500 maximum blew the top off. Why? The powder is too slow, the sequence went; primer ignites a little of the powder, pushes bullet forward into throat and STOPS, rest of powder ignites, there is a bore obstruction and parts get launched. This happened to careful reloader and commercial caster, he called me stated the facts, I said the above. He said Ron Reiber at Hodgdon said the same thing. Lloyd, you know of whom I am speaking of.

I like explanations :-D Is this a problem with the 250gr 190's in a revolver?

[Lloyd Smale]

yes i do frank but im not posting his name and I would probably be called a lier anyway or they just question his skills as a reloader and the thing is re7 is much closer of a fit to the maximums then it is to the 45 colt or 44 mag. Frank we both been at this for nie on 30 years and have probably done some pretty dumb thngs in our times too. But i like to think ive learned a bit from all of it and the best thing i learned was to not outguess the experts and not to reinvent the wheel.
A full case of Reloader 7 in a 500 maximum blew the top off. Why? The powder is too slow, the sequence went; primer ignites a little of the powder, pushes bullet forward into throat and STOPS, rest of powder ignites, there is a bore obstruction and parts get launched. This happened to careful reloader and commercial caster, he called me stated the facts, I said the above. He said Ron Reiber at Hodgdon said the same thing. Lloyd, you know of whom I am speaking of.

[Savvy Jack]

yes i do frank but im not posting his name and I would probably be called a lier anyway or they just question his skills as a reloader and the thing is re7 is much closer of a fit to the maximums then it is to the 45 colt or 44 mag. Frank we both been at this for nie on 30 years and have probably done some pretty dumb thngs in our times too. But i like to think ive learned a bit from all of it and the best thing i learned was to not outguess the experts and not to reinvent the wheel.

In this case it would seem that a lighter bullet would be less likely to get stuck in the barrel with slower burning powder than a heavier tighter bullet?

[Lloyd Smale]

Not nessarily. a heavier bullet gives a little harder to get moving and that allows the pressure to build a bit more and will help the powder burn more effeciently. As to size if you take a 452 bullet and a 454 bullet and shoot them. ONce they clear the forcing cone there both at barrel size anyway. I doubt with lead bullets being oversized means much but if anything again it would cause a little resistance that would allow pressure to build and the powder to burn more effieciently.

So if i was out of every other powder on the shelf and needed to load 44 mags or 45 colts and just had re7 id load it with the heaviest bullets in that caliber i could come up with push them as hard as i could and id light it off with a cci350 primer. Even a rifle primer might be the ticket with these loads. I know some smith a wesson loads for the 500 use some powders in that slow burning catagory or at least close to it but i think they recomend rifle primers for it.

[cbrick]

Not nessarily. a heavier bullet gives a little harder to get moving and that allows the pressure to build a bit more and will help the powder burn more effeciently. As to size if you take a 452 bullet and a 454 bullet and shoot them. ONce they clear the forcing cone there both at barrel size anyway. I doubt with lead bullets being oversized means much but if anything again it would cause a little resistance that would allow pressure to build and the powder to burn more effieciently.

Exactly! No one is talking about lite for caliber bullets with slow powder.

Also very important for revolver accuracy is proper neck tension. The combination of a heavy for caliber bullet and good neck tension is critical with any of the slow powders or ball powders such as H-110 to promote proper ignition.

Rick

[Savvy Jack]

I may just have to stop shooting then. All that was left in the gun shop was three bottles of Reloader 7. No more pistol primers either. I have 2,000 large rifle primers for my 45-70s of which I have done nothing with yet. I purchased the 4198 a while back for the 45-70. I purchased the RL-7 for my 240gr 44-40s for my Marlin. I have very little Unique left and was trying to save it. I have tones of Trail Boss which is left over from my CAS days that were short lived.

[Savvy Jack]

"Light boolits in the 44-40 should not stress anything, but you might consider that scenario a waste of that powder speed. Try also a case full of 680, but don't rush out to buy that."

In a '92 Winchester that would probably be ok, but don't do that in a '73 Winchester!! Pressure would be too much for the action.

RL-7 is the powder of choice for a capacity load in a '73. It will produce b.p. velocities at b.p. pressures in Al's .44-40.

w30wcf

W44WCF, we already discussed this in another thread but I'd like to post this here of which I did not post in the other related threads on other forums. I just noticed that my 44-40 Lee Die set pamphlet dated 05-02-2003 shows the Reloader 7 data discussed. Exactly the same as the Hercules 1995 and Alliant 2005 data. It does not show the CUP/PSI nor does it designate that the FPS is from a rifle, but does state that all loads are for all firearms. However, we certainly know that 1,290fps is not from a revolver.

I did try this load in my 5.5" Cattleman and got 791fps with WLPs. With CCI350 primers I got 876fps. I upped it just a tad with the CCI350 primers and got 971fps with good accuracy. Can I expect any different with Remington 2 1/2 primers? I just picked up 200 of them today. I wanted more but had to get 1,000 WLPs instead.