Lipitor

[Bret4207]

Doc wants me to take Lipitor to lower my cholesterol, I'm at 255 and the bad stuff is at 190+. One friend swears by it, 3 others say it nearly killed them. Anyone have any info? I'm on Atkins diet, (60lbs lost so far), so I can't alter the intake too much or I bloat up like a baloon. I'd be willing to try the oatmeal/folic acid/anti-oxidant route but don't know if it really works. Any experience on this subject?

[africa]

Bret, I am a physician, actually an endocrinologist. Lipitor is the commercial brandname of a drug called atorvastatin, one among the big group of statins. These drugs are effective in lowering total cholesterol, and thus, LDL chol. . They are not free of risks. Your liver function status must be evaluated before and during use of statins, whichever they might be. People show a wide tolerance spectrum to statins eithwer liverwise or musclewise. Your physician must warn you about symptoms of rhabdomyolysis, a rare but nevertheless serious muscle tissue related complication. Also, and very important, hi cholesterol is not a disease in itself, but rather a risk factor, that must be graded within a whole coronary risk evaluation, that includes your blood pressure, ECG, glucose, triglycerides, homocystein, platelet agregation and adhesivity, familiar history of coronary disease, smoking, age, physical activity, among others.
hope this helps.

[StarMetal]

Personally I don't see 190+ as super high and requiring medicine.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Doc Africa ( sounds like a super hero!) Thanks for the info. My Doc is a real good guy and he explained the down side to the drug. I keep hearing all these horror stories and I may be showing the yeller streak that runs up my back. Blood I can take. Damaged organs is another thing. Makes me kind of queasy. I may just be looking for an excuse to avoid the inevitable.

BTW- You do realize that now that you've let the cat out of the bag you're going to have a bunch of us hypochondriac (sp?) types asking about our 'roids, funny shaped moles and ear hair issues, right? HAR!

Joe- The total level is 255, the bad LDL (I think?) is 190+. Thats supposed to be way too high.

[Scrounger]

Docter's opinions vary, of course, but the paper I read said: Under 200 is desireable; 200 to 240 is marginal, cautionary; 240 is too high, bring it down. Medication, exercise, diet. Eat lots of corn. No more doughnuts, no steaks and french fries, take the skin off your chicken, no cheese or anything else that tastes good. Oatmeal for breakfast. No more eggs. Welcome to the world of vegetarianism... The Niacin highs you get from some meds feels like your skin is on fire...I have been taking Lovastatin for almost 10 years. I had the Niacin flashes for a while but eventually they quit. I'm not aware of any side effects now, I do have my blood checked regulary. Most of us realize we're going to die someday so we tend to take diseases lightly. But when you think of High Cholesterol, think STROKE!. That's worse than death if you end up paralyzed or unable to care for yourself. For ten years I kept the Hypertension and cholesterol beat down. So they threw Gall bladder problems and Diabetes into the pot for me to play against. Gall bladder is just pain and discomfort, I can handle that... Diabetes is another one of those worse than death sentences. I'm concentrating on taming that horse now. What next.....

[africa]

Nooo, Scrounger! Diabetes is positively NOT worse than death! Just face it, do what must be done, and it will be tame. Better than any argument, let me expose a fact. I care for a lady along the last 30 years. She has diabetes since she was 50, and is 102 now, going to 103 next may. No bigger complications, those that she has are indistinguishable from those of her most respectable age. Disease is part of life. Just like taxes, or stormy days.
BTW, people are not divided in sane and ill, nor old or new. The real division is alive and dead.

[Maineboy]

Bret, my doc put me on Lipitor about 3 months ago. I'm 55 and over time my cholesterol level has been creeping up. I always had a good HDL to LDL ratio, but over the past few years, it's worsened and she said it was time to do something about it. I told her I didn't want to go on another drug, I'm already on meds for high blood pressure, so she said we could try controling it with a diet change. I knew I wasn't disciplined enough for that so that left the medication route. I haven't noticed any side effects and my liver tests have been good. I had more blood work done yesterday and have a meeting with my doc next week. Hopefully the Lipitor will make a difference. High blood pressure and high cholesterol run in my family. I exercise regularly and that with the meds I take for my hypertension have lowered my blood pressure to 112/71. If the Lipitor is as effective with my high cholesterol, I'll have some added peace of mind.

[Scrounger]

I am referring to the possibility that you can lose your eyesight, or hands and legs from diabetes. To me that's worse than death.

[David R]

My daughter got diabetes when she was 4. We thought the world was coming to an end. She is 18 now, gets awesome grades in school, holds 2 part time jobs, is on the swim team and is going to RIT in the fall. Its NOT a big deal once you get the hang of it. Easy to control if you do what you are told.

David

[9.3X62AL]

I've been diabetic since age 26 (50 now), and spent 24 years of a 28 year cop career as such--insulin dependant, I might add. I worked patrol, narcotics, SWAT for 8 years, and robbery/homicide the last 7 years of my career. Diabetes hasn't held me back from much of anything I wanted to do so far. THAT is why the donut jokes don't fly here--don't want 'em! :-)

Dr. Africa--you sound like my kind of doctor.

[Blackwater]

Fellows, I'm 57 and just started having problems with my sugar level. A buddy who's diabetic tested me twice, and it was 204 on his glucosometer. The doc wasn't very helpful, IMO, but I haven't been really satisfied with him for some time now, and plan a change. Looking for a better one.

Symptoms persisted, and I got my own glucosometer last Friday. Took readings any time I thought I might learn something of how my body and insulin production is handling my sugars, and again got results as high as 204. Got some readings as low as the low 100's up to @ 114 when I was "normal," or shold have been (from what I now know. I seem to feel best when my sugar's around 110-120, and probably in the rising mode. When it's falling, I feel more listless.

Saw my doc's PA Tuesday, and like her a LOT better than my doc. She listened, and her responses to my questions were more complete, and reflected she was listening to what I was saying, and she actually answered the actual questions I had. I still don't have a very good handle on this stuff, except for knowing the consequences of NOT taking care of it. That leaves me scared AND confused - NOT a good situation!

Any brief advice or references to good sites to learn from would be much appreciated. My diabetic buddy thinks I probably need to be on the pills, and with my wife's situation and her cooking, I find it hard not to agree with him. What the PA told me Tuesday probably indicates that may be what I'm destined for also.

One question really concerns me. IF I can safely delay taking the pills by watching my diet closely, how much more preferable is that? It's now my understanding that some folks do well on the pills for many years. What I know of the general way the body works indicates that it can or MAY cease doing for itself what pills do for it. This makes me wonder if going ahead with taking the pills isn't destined to eventually put me on the needle, which I'd really rather avoid if at all possible.

How far off base is this assuming of mine? Is going on the pill likely to lead more quickly to the needle? I know just a teensy amount about how variable our human bodies are, and how there's always a joker in the deck, but right now, even glittering generalities are welcome.

And I AM getting a new doc. Just don't know which one yet. I know they're really between a rock and a hard place in many ways these days, and that they have a BUNCH other than medical matters to deal with, but .... well DANG! This is my LIFE we're potentially talking about here, and I MUST have a better relationship with my doc! Simply no other choice.

[fiberoptik]

My doc told me if I didn't get my cholesterol down, he was gonna put me on something. I took to eating a clove of garlic with each meal, 3x a day. At first I just chewed em up, but they are a bit pungent. I took to slicing them up, and swallowing like pills with food so I'd not get heartburn. After 30 days, I'd dropped my cholesterol by 100 points. He still don't believe me. I hear tell that aged garlic is even better. If ya don't want to smell Italian, chew up some parsley with it. I also use butter mixed about 50-50 with either Extra Virgin Olive Oil or the high grade Coconut oil from the health food stores. Avoid Canola, as it's made from rape-seeds, which are poisonous. Canada paid of the FDA over a million bucks to get them to ok it, but it's Seriously Bad News. :violin:

[David R]

Blackwater, I am no Doctor. Read about a good diabetic diet. My blood sugar levels were high and I started eating 3 meals a day consistantly (the same time each day). Cut out the milkshakes and candy bars. And I can't over do it with the beer. Levels are normal now and I feel much better.

I was always told for my daughter its better to eat a bunch of small meals than one big one a day. It works for me.

I am sure JDF has a website with lots of information.

People that say they can't be controlled or are "brittle" are full of crap and not doing what they are supposed to.
:hijack: .....Not a word in this post about lipitor. :)

David

[carpetman]

fiberoptik---Don't eat canola it's made from rape seeds. You got that right a guy eating extra virgin oil and rape seeds would be mixed up.

[BeeMan]

A different perspective -

My Dad's heart Dr. wants nothing to do with statins and he has convinced me of the same. He put Dad on bio-available CoQ10 due to arryhthmia and general poor heart condition. He credited CoQ10 with remarkable heart muscle condition and recovery when Dad eventually had to have bypass surgery. Dad has since dropped all the usual drug treatments and is in great shape. CoQ10 is recognized by docs overseas but not much in the US. The same doc is also a proponent of Weston Price and returning to diets low in highly refined foodstuffs.

http://faculty.washington.edu/ely/coenzq10.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/index.html

BeeMan

[Duckiller]

Blackwater
On advice of my wife suggest you start with American Diabetes Association for a begining web site. They will have links to other sites. Not sure where you live, but if you have access to a larger hospital they should have RN(s) that specialize in diabetes. Not sure where to send you because hospitals are organized differently. First step would to call and ask if they have a Diabetes Education program. Also try asking for Senior Care coordinator. Early stag of mature onset (type 2) can often be controlled with diet and exercise. RN Diabetic Educators that also prepare meals for their families understand what it takes to make the necessary changes to your diet. duckiller

[africa]

Deputy Al, thanks for your kind words. Bret, I've never been found superhero like bfore, I feel great!
Gentlemen, I'd like to make a couple of points, valid for all of us.
1. Disease is an unavoidable part of life.
2. Often, the FEELING of the disease is a bigger harassment than the disease itself.

There is, inside every shooter, at least the embryo of a fighter. Let it grow, just let it grow.
Never surrender. Attitude is a very strong factor.

[trooperdan]

You are my kind of doctor! I appreciate honesty and reality when it comes to things medicine. Kinda reminds me of my heart surgeon last year after my bypass when I asked him, "How do I know that graft you did isn't leaking?" He replied, "If it was leaking you wouldn't be asking any questions, you'd be dead!". We both had a good laugh at that. Next visit I brought him a copy of Lewis Grizzards book on his heart surgery, "They Torn Out My Heart and Stomped That Sucker Flat!"

[Blackwater]

Thanks, guys. Trying to take the crash course in education now. The good thing about diet change is I LOVE my veggies, so diet shouldn't be THAT big a sacrifice. Ain't gittin' older FUN!

[9.3X62AL]

Blackwater--

Why not go whole hog like I did 12 years ago--grow your own vegetables this spring! I've always liked good things from the garden, and started with tomatoes as a stress-relief thing in a small way--something the kids could help with when they were little, too. WARNING--vine ripened tomatoes will spoil you! Same story on fresh string beans, sweet corn, peppers, zucchini, and summer squash. Corn won't happen this year, gonna scale back a bit--but string beans and tomatoes are a GIVEN.

[nighthunter]

What is your opinion of an 11mm to 18mm slip between L5 and S1? I'm doing PT now but I think surgery is inevitible.
Nighthunter

[africa]

Classical surgical treatment - laminectomy- in a case like ours (a similar condition affects myself) is not a guarantee of improvement. Honest statistics (a contradiction? LOL) show 30% worsening, 30% neutral results and 40% improovement of various degrees. A more recent surgical approach- transcutaneous discectomy - seems to produce less unfavorable outcomes. PT is not especially effective, but it is 100% safe. Postural and behavioural reeducation are essencial. Pain killers or Non-steroid antiinflamatory drugs, should, in my opinion, be avoided. You see, pain is our friend. It is an alarm system, that warns when and where something is not OK. Inflamation is unpleasant, but is a defense mechanism, and should be respected. Blunt it, and the causative lesions will worsen faster. Although I do not have personal experience on the matter, medical litterature shows growing evidence of effectiveness of accupuncture.
So: Insist a little more in PT: get postural/behaviour education; If not enough, add accupuncture. Avoid antiinflamatory drugs (except for VERY short periods, plus rest, in cases of acute exacerbations). Let me know about.
Hope this helps.

[nelson133]

I'm not a doctor, tho I do work in the medical profession. I don't want to start a big uproar, but probably will. Lipitor and such drugs offer very little benefit with a relatively high incidence of dangerous side effects imo. In fact the whole cholesterol contoversy is far more complicated than it appears. First the standard test is wildly inaccurate and doesn't measure the various types of low density cholesterol, not all of which are harmful, even if you accept that cholesterol numbers above 200 are dangerous. There are a number of medical profesionals and researcher who don't. There is an international organization called the international cholesterol skeptic ( thincs.org ) that has a lot of information on their site. It is normal for cholesterol to rise with age.
As far as sugar problems, a blood sugar level above 100 to 110 measured on a consistant level is a reson to worry. There is a lot of good evidence that a lowered carbohydrate intake can reduce or even eliminate elevated blood sugar levels. It worked for me.
I don't want to turn this into a medical advice column, after all we are here for cast bullet shooting, but I do have some further resources. PM me for a list.

[slug]

My bad cholesterol (LDL) was a hair high for my age. I won't give numbers because we use the metric system in Canada. Anyhow, I started having ground up flaxseed after each meal when I could. Usually 5 spoonsful twice a day. It's gritty but you get used to it quickly. I buy it at the Bulk Barn and it's pretty cheap.
It acts by interfering with the absorption of fats from the intestinal tract. My LDL
dropped from 3.41 to about 2.59. (OK, I gave some numbers.)
It's safe, cheap and effective and boyoboyoboy does it ever keep you regular. I haven't changed my diet and I should, but I sure love my beef. The only thing that might help raise my good cholesterol is more exercise and I'm trying.
Lipitor is effective and has its place in treatment, but most people would rather take a tablet than work on changing their lifestyles, especially if they have a good drug plan.
Stew in Sudbury
(pharmacist since 1974)

[carpetman]

Slug they have you eating flaxseed from the feed store. Waksupi should not have any chlorestrol problems if he grazes on the same stuff his "girlfriends" do. It does interfere with his typing bahbahbah,

[StarMetal]

Ray,

It also insures that waksupi has to move the location of his outhouse more frequently too!

Joe

[waksupi]

Nearly had a severe outhouse disaster this morning. I was sitting there, minding my own business, and I heard a stampede. I stepped out the door, and was nearly ran over by two of the pet deer, playing tag. They totally ignore me anymore, and were having a grand old time. Three others were grazing in the yard, and were totally uninterested in the proceedings. Little do they realize, they are food in the freezer, should they ever become seriously necessary. Otherwise, they are pretty darn fun to watch, in the mornings and evenings.

[Scrounger]

Nearly had a severe outhouse disaster this morning. I was sitting there, minding my own business, and I heard a stampede. I stepped out the door, and was nearly ran over by two of the pet deer, playing tag. They totally ignore me anymore, and were having a grand old time. Three others were grazing in the yard, and were totally uninterested in the proceedings. Little do they realize, they are food in the freezer, should they ever become seriously necessary. Otherwise, they are pretty darn fun to watch, in the mornings and evenings.

[SIZE=2]And to think, some citified hunters actually pay for scent to mask their smell...[/SIZE

[waksupi]

[SIZE=2]And to think, some citified hunters actually pay for scent to mask their smell...[/SIZE

That's one of the biggest sucker games around. They should just splash on some lipitor. Back on topic.

[wills]

If you'd put the kitchen range in there you could cook while sitting (multitasking) and it would provide ballast and reduce the likelihood of tipping over.

[Scrounger]

If you'd put the kitchen range in there you could cook while sitting (multitasking) and it would provide ballast and reduce the likelihood of tipping over.

Better he should move his casting set-up into there. The smell of hot lead should mask that other smell, unless he is fond of it.... The heat should be a welcome addition on those cold winter nights. And mornings. Probably CarpetMan will weigh in with a suggestion as well.

[Scrounger]

Waksupi, someone sent me an email suggesting that the reason the deer were unafraid of you was that you smelled like a sheep, not a man. He didn't explain why you'd smell like a sheep. [smilie=l:

[MTWeatherman]

I've been plagued with high cholesterol my entire life. I have had it tested at annual physicals for years...typically runs between 290 and 310 on the total. HDL is normally in the low 50s with the LDL over 200. All other risk factors are fine...blood pressure, triglycerides, etc. I'm now nearly 62 with no (knock on wood) cardiovascular disease evident so far. However, that could change tomorrow.

Due to moves and retirements, I've had six physicians over the course of the past 40 years. Everyone of them indicated a concern with the cholesterol levels. I was left with the impression that I'd drop over with a heart attack the next day unless it could be lowered. I was on a stringent diet for four years. Only real result was about a 20 pound weight lost and a return to the weight of my 20s. Cholesterol stayed about the same...just hovered near the low end of the above range.

Then the drugs began to appear. I've tried the digestive Cholesterol blockers (cholestyramine) and the statins. The only one which didn't bring signifcant side effects was Baycol and that's the one they pulled off the market. I respond very well to the statins as far as the lowering of LDL with the total cholesterol pulled down to near 200. However, with the exception of Baycol (which I was on for several years until the stopped its manufacture), all have given me arthritic like symptoms within 6 months of starting their usage. The joints were so stiff in the morning that it took forever to limber up and then once I sat down, it would start all over again. However, liver tests showed everything was fine.

I currently take Crestor at 5mg. I tried 10 mg for a month before the joint stiffness was more than I was willing to tolerate. 5mg brings it too...just goes away after an hour or so. I'm about ready to say hell with this one too. In spite of my doctor, I have to question if anything that causes these side effects is doing more good than harm. I tried Zocor, Lipitor, Lescol, Pravacol, and Mevacor prior to Crestor. If a new statin comes out, I'll try it too...and hope I can tolerate it.

I know 6 people who have been on statins and 4 of them have reported the same symptoms I have. However, since they are all 50+ they simply attritubuted the symptoms to arthritis and like me didn't initially realize it was a drug reaction. Of those with symptoms, 2 are still on statins due to existing or past heart disease(one ironically was given Vioxx for his "developing arthritis"). Miraculously, the 2 that quit had the "arthritis" symptoms disappear within a few months after stopping the medication (my experience).

Just be aware that the side effects of those statins can sneak up on you...and just because you may have side effects with one of the statins, it does not mean that you won't be able to tolerate another. Based on my experience, I believe those side effects, though not considered serious by the pharmaceutical companies, are far more prevalent than advertised. Perhaps "Africa" has some personal experience with this. In my case, I wish they'd put Baycol back on the market. I'd much rather take the nearly statistically insignificant increased risk of rhabdomyolysis(all statins have it to some degree) for the sake of a statin with no personal side effects. However, in ourt litigious society, I wasn't given a choice on that.

[nelson133]

They took Baycol off the market because of the death rate of people on it, it was dangerous. Crestor has a high level of side effects even for a statin drug.

[MTWeatherman]

Bayer voluntarily took Baycol off the market as they were afraid of potential lawsuits. Of course, it still didn't prevent them.

All statins are dangerous in the sense they can cause rhabdomyolysis. Baycol did have the highest risk of it at the time it was recalled...but the actual risk was still relatively low. A quick Google search indicated 31 rhabdomyolysis deaths in 700,000 U.S. users with one third of them due to a reaction with fibrozil and most of those approximately 20 remaining deaths at the .8 mg (highest) dose. I took .3mg. Of course, after the lawsuits were filed, the number of reputed deaths rose...100 at last count. The risk of death to people from heart disease is much, much higher than any risk of rhabdomyolysis from a statin...Baycol or otherwise. How many deaths from heart disease would you expect in 700,000 people?

The big question for an individual is what is the biggest risk?...a statin or heart disease?...and will lowering your cholesterol really help you? Its not an easy decision when you have high cholesterol but no other risk factors or apparent heart disease. After the first heart attack the choice becomes an easier one. Baycol was one of the better tolerated statins so, for some people with existing heart disease and a sensitivity to statins, it is missed.

Given the currently publicity, I wouldn't be surprised to see Crestor get discontinued also.. Perhaps other statins will follow. Per the Baycol experience, the statin at the top of the rhabdomyolysis risk list is in a precarious position no matter what the absolute risk of complications. Per Google, it cost Bayer $477 million in out of court settlements and as of August 2003 they were still facing 11,000 lawsuits over Baycol. I'm sure a good lawyer could find some deep pockets for Crestor also.

[moodyholler]

I had a stroke in November 2005, a center stem bleed and they put me on Lipitoras my triglycerides were 900. Also diagnosed as a diabetic in August 2005. Not my year, obviuosly. I am responding well to the Lipitor and all numbers are dropping rapidly accprding to my doctor. I am 41 and overweight at 32% body fat. FWIW, moodyholler

[MTWeatherman]

MoodyHoller:

Sorry to hear about your stroke, but am glad to hear that Lipitor is working for you.

You make a very good point. In my previous posts I should have said "stroke and heart disease" in every place I said "heart disease". The two go hand-in-hand.

[omgb]

Moodyhollar and Co. Permit me to share something with you that you may find helpful. I was diagnosed with type II dibetes in 1995. My blood sugar was over 400 and my triglycerides were over 1200. That's no typo, they really were 1200+. I began with oral meds; glyburide and lopid at first. after a couple of years I had to add glucophage and two other drugs, one for BP and another added to the lopid for triglycerides. Two years ago I maxed out on a combination of oral meds and injectable insulin. My blood sugar was wild (over 260 in the AM) and my bp was running 140/100 and my cholesteral was way over 300. I was also 398 lbs and 6'3" age 47. I was screwed to say the least. Then I went on WeightWatchers. I have kept to the eating program (not a diet but a life change..write that down). I now weigh 250 (still going down) and am 49. My bp is 110/68 and my cholesteral is in the low normal range (under 140). I take no drugs, none, not one, nada. Two days into the life change I stopped using injectable insulin. Within a week I cut my oral meds by 25%. Three months in I cut them in half. 7 months in I was off all but the cholesteral meds. Eleven months in I was off those too. I have all of the energy I had as a 25 year old and best of all, I haven't gotten even a cold since I changed my diet. I don't run and I don't go to the gym. I just do yard work, hunt birds and stay active. My advice is to check out WeightWatchers. Follow their eating plan to the letter. Put up with the hassle and learn to eat better. I would bet the farm that many if not all of your troubles will either go away completely or greatly diminish. If you want more particulars, send me a PM. This is a big deal..lif and death sort of stuff. I'm not selling anything and I don't go to the meetings any more. This worked, it really worked and I'm convinced it will work for most others as well.
R J Talley

[BeeMan]

I find it interesting that this thread has so many replies. There is an appreciation that statins can lower cholesterol, albeit with side effects for some (maybe many). However, I think we are asking the wrong question when asking what the side effects are.

The designer drug approach often (not always) treats symptoms rather than the root cause. Someone already noted that 'elevated' cholesterol is a condition labeled as a risk factor. It is not a disease.

Ask what function cholesterol naturally performs in the body. It a basic building block of cells and necessary in repairing damage. Interestingly, inflamation is now being talked about as a risk factor in some heart and artery disease. Since inflamation is a signal that something is harmed and needs repair, why not address the inflamation rather than mess with the repair mechanism?

Ask what triggers excess internal production of cholesterol, vs. the intake of dietary cholesterol. Diet is important here.

Probably most important, ask what other effects may result with a designer drug like statins. Loss of naturally occuring Co-Q10 in the heart is one effect of some statins. The biochemical pathway is well documented. One result of taking statins may well be the startling rise in congestive heart failure. This is not a pretty way to go, but it can be reversed with Co-Q10.

If holding cholesterol levels down with drugs isn't the answer, what is? Much of our modern diet has been pushed on us because it is more profitable for the producer, not because it is healthy for us. Fixing our diet isn't hard and it doesn't have to mean a life of boring food either.

I am fortunate that my Dad has a PhD in biochemistry and didn't buy the standard heart disease treatment. First, he is still with us and now largely healthy at nearly 80, despite having to overcome a 20 year battle with heart disease. Second, he taught me to search for better answers on this subject.

For me, the evidence is pretty clear. if you haven't already looked at them, see the links below. From there you can search and find plenty more.

http://faculty.washington.edu/ely/coenzq10.html
(Dr. Langsjoen in Tyler TX is my Dad's doctor, and a very fine man to meet in person)

http://www.westonaprice.org/index.html
(this site advocates a return to better food, and tells why)

Doc Africa, if you read this far, I'd be interested in your comments.

Best of health to all,
BeeMan

[africa]

Whenever we discuss any medical act, such as prescribing a drug, it must be kept in mind that the purpose of medical practice is to enhance TIME and QUALITY of life. Whatever we do, must, all the time, be matched to this principle. So: Unfortunately, many many times an otherwise good intention plus commercial and profit interest plus dis/misinformation leads to damage instead of improovement. As an exemple, around 1890/1895, in Europe and mostly in England, wealthy people that could afford a surgical operation had the terminal half of their colons excised, as a preventive mean of... not farting!!! If you reckon that there were no antibiotics at this time, and that sterilization was still coming to light, surgery was a rather dangerous enterprise. Even not considering this, an unavoidable side-effect of such a procedure was a malabsorption syndrome that leaded do chronical undernourishment. This procedure was consensually considered an ethical and beneficial procedure - a direct result of how farting, in hi classes, was seen in these days. See what I mean?
Now, for 2006: Medicine has not a lot of certainities. We believe too much, and do not know enough.
There are so many heart disease/stroke risk factors! But we emphasize those that we can handle, or modify, and almost ignore those we can not change.
Risk factors: Gender, Type A personality, obesity/overweight, hi blood pressure, wide pulse pressure, diabetes, sedentarism, dislipidemia, hi apoprotein B, coagulopathies, low homocystein, low ubiquinone, inflamatory status, age, familial history, previous angina/infarction/stroke,smoking, menopause,stress, among others less known like baldness of the rear of the head. And, of course, cholesterol, that, BTW is not a lipid, but an alchool.
The relationship between hi cholesterol and heatr attack/stroke is a randomic one, not aposable to individuals. Each individual is as peculiar as are his fingerprints, so, each case is a case. Exemples, 2 of my clients
Client A - low risk profile, 51 years old, cholesterol 158, HDL (good) 56, LDL ('bad') 77. Needed 5 coronary grafts. Still alive.
Client B - 72 years old, obese, otherwise low risk profile. Cholesterol 440. HDL undetectable. No evidence of heart disease. died at 83, in a car crash.

[Bret4207]

Wow. My post has taken on a life of it's own. For the newbies, this is one of the reasons we maintain an "Off Topic " forum. Lotsa good info and you'll find some pretty sharp minds among the folks here.

I've decided to forego the Lipitor for a few months and try an herbal approach and also to change from the Atkins diet, which has been very sucessfull for me, to something lower in fat/calories. My bp is great at 118/60, i've held steady at 5"10 and around 205-210 lbs for a couple years now. Thats down from 265 so I'm surely feeling much better. I'd like to loose another 20 lbs and drop my cholesterol count too. I'm not a huge vegetable eater, but not much on sweets (or donuts!), either so I'm going to have to try and balance this out.

Thanks for all the input. A special thanks to Longhorn and Doc Africa.

[BeeMan]

Doc Africa,

Thanks for the candid reply. Beyond the 1890 example :shock: , two points stood out.

'We believe too much, and do not know enough.'

'Each individual is as peculiar as are his fingerprints...'

I agree.

BeeMan

[MTWeatherman]

Some excellent points are being made here. Here’s my view...in the following analogy:

Take 100 rivers...50 of those rivers have a smooth channel and 50 of them are rough with big rocks, old car bodies, junk etc in them.

Someone does a study and they discover that the more silt in the rivers, the faster they plug up. Sounds like a no-brainer. They say that for every 5% you increase the silt...the risk of blockage goes up 10 % in those 100 rivers. What they failed to consider, however, was the quality of the river channel...rough or smooth. It turns out that there is no blockage in the smooth-bottomed rivers, only the rough-bottomed ones. So, if the silt is raised 5% there actually is 0% increase in blockage in the smooth river but 20 % in the rough one. If they were concerned about blockage of the river, they should have been looking at the quality of the channel and not worry about the amount of silt unless they were only considering the rough channel.

Your arteries are analogous to the rivers and your cholesterol to the silt. The doctors have failed the take into account the quality of your arteries when they only consider the cholesterol levels. They try to do so by looking at a family history of heart disease on the assumption that if close relatives have arteries that are prone to plaque buildup, yours likely are too (they’re trying to check the river channel). If you know you have heart disease you know you are prone to plaque (rough channel) so it makes sense to worry about the cholesterol (silt) level. However, cholesterol itself is not a major risk factor if you have a “smooth channel”.

We’re only indirectly measuring the actual risk of heart disease by checking cholesterol...like those rivers. some can have high levels with no problem but for others even low cholesterol creates a blockage. However, if you pool everyone together like those rivers...yes, the higher cholesterol the higher the risk. However, it is not necessarily true for an individual...depends on their arteries.

A better means of testing an individuals propensity for plaque buildup needs to be developed.

[nelson133]

Tpr. Bret, why would you switch from something that is working for you? There is no good reason to lower your fat intake as long as your carbohydrate intake is kept low. Increasing you fruit and vegetable intake would make more sense to me.
While statins do reduce the number of heart attacks in people who have already had one, all the studies that I have looked at show no difference in overall mortality between the test group and the control group. So statins can help youi die of something else, but won't generally lengthen your life.

[MTWeatherman]

Nelson.
A good point. I believe that the initial Framingham study that kicked off the whole issue of lowering cholesterol established exactly that. Low cholesterol yielded a lower risk of heart disease but overall mortality remained about the same.

Some evidence actually exists that very low cholesterol levels may contribute to an increased risk of cancer. However, don't believe there's anything definitive on it yet and it is entirely possible that more studies will not bear it out. However, who knows, it could be that high cholesterol offsets a genetic propensity toward cancer. Food for thought on my end because there's no heart disease in my immediate family...but there is cancer.

Bottom line...you won't live forever. Something will get you in the end.

[nighthunter]

I suggest you break an old habit and bypass a donut shop or two. No wonder Dr. Kratchet wants to put you on lipitor. Do you have any idea what those things are cooked in? Lard .... Greese ... Fat.... You remember the saying you are what you eat ....... well listen to Doc Kratchet. He's probably getting even with you for a long ago traffic ticket. Maybe you should learn to like bagels. LMAO
Nighthunter

[sundog]

Wxman, you are right. Something will do you in. It's nice to be proactive to extend that, but when quality of life goes to ****, it's over. Sooo, do I like sausage or ham and eggs for breakfast? Hell Yea, damn right - and biscuits and gravy, and some home fries. But, not every morning. I also like a bowl of Cheerios with half percent and a banana. I also like a big ole pot of beans. Doen't mean I havta have a pound of fired taters with'em (that would be purdy good though). Point is, the stuff that hurts should be in mederation and the stuff that's good, well learn to like it, and not with cheese melted all over it. I'm getting ready to do an asparagus patch this year in prep for retirement. Done right a good bed can last 25 to 30 years. Cut fresh and steamed they provide some of the best and healthiest food a human can consume. That's part of the problem, most people in this country have lost their way.... sundog

btw, I had a really good cheeseburger for lunch today, but it's the first one I've had in I don't premember when. Am I a saint when it comes to this stuff? NOPE. It ain't easy.

[longhorn]

A tip of the hat to "Doc" Africa-a very instructive little post. I sure like to hear of physicians that think about their patients, not just their patient's lab results! I'll just stay out of this discussion, except to note that I always recommend CoQ 10 (aka ubiquinone) supplementation to patients on statin drugs.

[carpetman]

Tpr.Brett---Not much on donuts---hmmm Dep Al says same. Maybe thats the problem you are in constant conflict. A cop and not a donut eater. Be like someone that mentioned eating rape seeds and extra virgin olive oil.

[Blackwater]

Doc, you make a very salient point, even if it's not so pleasant maybe. Seems that as we get older, the main thing is to just be plain ol' stubborn and persistent and inquisitive. I don't know much about my sugar problems, for instance, but I'm dang sure gonna' learn.

My son's 35, and has been having some rather serious problems for about 6 months now. He had 5th disease, and diagnosed that himself thru surfing the net and just keeping on asking questions until he thought he may have a handle on it. When he asked his docs (has seen several through this), they told him either they didn't know anything about fifth disease, or that he didn't have it. He persisted, and when their other diagnoses and treatments didn't work, he finally got one to prescribe the test. It came back positive for fifth disease. The Doc's reaction? The rascal acted offended that he'd been proven wrong!!! This is the kind of stuff that really perplexes some of us.

Like I said, though, he kept on seeking the answer, and finally found at least part of it. He's continued to have some other problems, perhaps offshoots of the original fifth disease, and he's doggedly pursuing those. The "boy" doesn't know what "give up" means. I must confess I'm still concerned, but I know he'll persist and find the cure he needs, unless God calls him home early.

I think medicine and medical treatment has ALWAYS, or at least OFTEN, been a matter of persisting until one feels like they're "well" again. I myself confess to being a sometimes poor patient. I've always been the type who disregarded how I "felt," and just kept going, and usually that'd work, and the symptoms would pass. Being a Type A, I just don't look within as often or as deeply as I probably should. Age and wear and tear's changing that, now though, since I've FINALLY realized I'm not 10 ft. tall, bulletproof or immortal any more. I don't know what happened. I just woke up one day and ... well, you know.

I'm just hoping that my son's getting an early start on learning how to care for himself keeps him away from some of the self abuse I've commited over the years. It WAS fun, though. No denying that. It's paying the tarrif now that's FINALLY made some of these pearls of wisdom sink in, or at least become apparent. If I don't live another day, I've truly been blessed and extremely lucky. I just don't WANT to leave for a good while yet, what with grandboys comin' up and all. Need to do some training, and can't do that if I'm not around. Sure is a motivating thing to realize that I'm not immortal any more.

The doctor/patient relationship has probably always been problematic and flawed, I guess, and certainly all the non-medical things docs have to think about and occupy their time these days don't help one little bit. Whatever the situation, though, I at least know I can't expect my docs to un-do the accumulated abuse, nor intuit diagnoses. More docs seem to be a bit jaded these days by all the extraneous stuff they have to deal with, not the least of which is patients expecting miracles where none exist or patients that expect intuitive diagnoses with barely any info at all. I guess it can be frustrating on both sides of the stethoscope, but I've noted how jaded many docs seem today, and know a little at least about the causes of this.

A doc with your attitude, approach and obvious professionalism and dedication needs a bit of a pat on the back, so consider yourself electronically patted, if you will. Thanks for some of your insights. It's obvious that you're one of the really good ones.

[MTWeatherman]

Let me add my thanks to "Doc Africa" for chipping in on this one. Its nice to get an honest and unbiased assessment from the medical community...particularly one that isn't totally obsessed with cholesterol values. I found the story of Client B interesting. Thats the sort of information I would never expect to get from a doctor. A doctor who implies that you can live to a ripe old age with a 400+ cholesterol count...absolute heresy to many I'm sure.

I didn't start this thread but certainly was appreciative of all the information exchanged nevertheless. Since I've dealt with the high cholesterol issue since my 20s, I've obvisously taken a big interest in it. I've read most information that I could get my hands on...and this thread will be counted as one of the better ones.

[BeeMan]

HEALTH FACTS
QUESTION & ANSWER SESSION

Q: I've heard that cardiovascular exercise can prolong life; is this true?
A: Your heart is only good for so many beats, and that's it... don't waste them on exercise. Everything wears out eventually. Speeding up your heart will not make you live longer; that's like saying you can extend the life of your car by driving it faster. Want to live longer? Take a nap.

Q: Should I cut down on meat and eat more fruits and vegetables?
A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What does a cow eat? Hay and corn. And what are these? Vegetables. So a steak is nothing more than an efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your system. Need grain? Eat chicken. Beef is also a good source of field grass (green leafy vegetable). And a pork chop can give you 100% of your recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.

Q: Should I reduce my alcohol intake?
A: No, not at all. Wine is made from fruit. Brandy is distilled wine, that means they take the water out of the fruity bit so you get even more of the goodness that way. Beer is also made out of grain. Bottoms up!

Q: How can I calculate my body/fat ratio?
A: Well, if you have a body and you have fat, your ratio is one to one. If you have two bodies, your ratio is two to one, etc.

Q: What are some of the advantages of participating in a regular exercise program?
A: Can't think of a single one, sorry. My philosophy is: No Pain...Good!

Q: Aren't fried foods bad for you?
A: YOU'RE NOT LISTENING!!!... Foods are fried these days in vegetable oil. In fact, they're permeated in it. How could getting more vegetables be bad for you?

Q: Will sit-ups help prevent me from getting a little soft around the middle?
A: Definitely not! When you exercise a muscle, it gets bigger. You should only be doing sit-ups if you want a bigger stomach.

Q: Is chocolate bad for me?
A: Are you crazy? HELLO Cocoa beans! Another vegetable!!! It's the best feel-good food around!

Q: Is swimming good for your figure?
A: If swimming is good for your figure, explain whales to me.

Q: Is getting in-shape important for my lifestyle?
A: Hey! 'Round' is a shape!

[smilie=p:

[africa]

This is a joke published in PUNCH magazine, around 1900, but, I'm afraid still quite current.

At a hospital's vestiary, 2 surgeons chat when a third one comes in, showing evidence of beeing operating.
One of the chatters asks him what operation did he perform. Answer:

"A hundred dollars one."

"Noo! What I'm asking is, what did the patient have?"

" A hundred dollars."

[Bret4207]

Nighthunter- Read my post again. I haven't had a doughnut, a bagel or a freakin' slice of bread in 3 years. Body fats below 15%. It ain't the doughnuts. Atkins doesn't allow ANY of that type of high carb stuff and I've stuck to it, usually keeping below 20 grams of carbs daily.

Nelson- I want to try something different than Atkins, even though it works, because I'm taking in a lot of cholesterol and becasue IT"S BORING. 3 years of meat, eggs and cheese gets to you after awhile. On Atkins you can't increase the veggie intake, much less fruits with their sugars, or you screw the whole diet up. Once your body starts processing carbs it takes you 3-4 days or pretty much no carbs to throw your system back into ketosis so you process the fat and proteins. Atkins works and it's a guys diet, but it gets old after a couple years. I'm just looking for a balanced diet I can live with.

[nelson133]

T B, I've been doing low carb based on Atkins for 4 years and have done a lot of research about it. I eat lots of veggies and fruits, as the good doctor recommended, you only have to keep your carbs under 20 in induction, the opening phase of the program. There are thousands of recipes for different kinds of foods that meet the low carb criteria. Admittedly, you or someone else has to cook because most of the good stuff isn't available commercially. If you are interested, I can point you to several good recipe sites.
It is a fallacy that the amount of cholesterol you eat has much to do with eating cholesterol. The Framingham study cited above showed that those who ate the most cholesterol, had the lowest levels of cholesterol. Your body (liver) produces the majority of cholesterol in your system, over 95%. While diet can effect how much cholesterol your body produces, eating more cholesterol won't effect your count unless you are in the small group of people who genetically can't process cholesterol. The highest source of dietary cholesterol is lean meats, while low carb requires normal amounts of protein, and using fat intake for energy.

[Bret4207]

Nelson- So you can eat the fruits and veggies and it doesn't thow you off? I can't seem to do that. As soon as I get a good dose of veggies, even salad,I'll notice the weight creep up. I'll ahve to do some research on this.

[Bret4207]

Well, the herbal approach, cutting out the grease/fat/etc and going to the whole grains dropped my cholesterol a whopping 7 points. Now we try the Lipitor. It was worth a try!

[AkMike]

Trooper Bret, I have about 1 month sofar on the lipotor. I was bored waiting at the drug store waiting for my wife and made the mistake of shoving my arm in one of those blood pressure machines. Bad mistake! 160/112! I freaked. Needless to say I was at the Dr's first thing in the am. The blood tests showed 270 for the cholesterol so I went on lipitor and a blood pressure med. I've checked the pressure alot and it's dropped down to 130/84. Tommarrow I go back to see what the blood tests show.
I read all the posts here with interest and I want to thank all that added their story. It's helped.

[longhorn]

7 points-not very successful. Read the patient info your pharmacy should supply with your prescription, and watch for the listed side effects. Send me any questions you might have.

[Bret4207]

So far ( 1 week) the only effect I have noticed is a slightly increased energy level and the fact that bowel movements are NO PROBLEM! In fact, I'd say it's a little too easy, if you follow my drift.