Upset w/Lee Moulds!!

[captain-03]

I am about the pull what little hair I have left out! Where in the world does one find loading data for Lee Moulds?

I own the new Lyman and Speer books and have searched the Lee all the powder web sites to no avail!!

Lee makes all these wonderful moulds BUT publishes NO loading data for their product. I am not a brave soul when it comes to reloading - expermentation is not something I relish doing.

I have read from some posters here to just use the load data for the same grain bullet ... and, I have done this in some cases. However, Lee makes many moulds that the weight for a particular caliber is not listed in any of the manuals ....

Again, where can one find loading data for Lee Moulds?

[Nora]

I have read from some posters here to just use the load data for the same grain bullet ... and, I have done this in some cases.


This is what you should be doing. CB's don't really care what their design is. Use the load data from something close in weight and don't sweat it. There is no data listed anywhere that I've heard of for each mold type and style.

[Jon K]

capt,

Ahhhhhhh..............Load development, that's half the fun, and challenge of the whole thing.

How boring would it be to just pick the boolit specs and loads out of a book, and shoot?

Jon

[SciFiJim]

Not a lot of experimentation is necessary, but, you do have to find what works best in your gun. You can use the load data for the same weight bullet. If there is not data for a specific weight then use the data for the next heaviest bullet. NEVER, NEVER start out at the top end of any data. Start at the low end and work up to find the most accurate.

For example. The weekend I worked up a load for the LEE 452-200-RF boolit. There is no data to be found for that boolit. Using the data for the 200 gr SWC from several sources I loaded 10 test rounds for each 1/2 grain increment from 3.5 to 6.0 using Alliant Bullseye. The max listed was 6.3 but I stopped at 6.0. For my pistol (Kimber UCII) the most accurate was at 4.5 grains. I checked the brass at each weight level (including 3.5) for pressure signs. There was no scorching of the outside of the brass (a sign of under pressure and lack of seal). Also, after each weight increment I field stripped my pistol and checked the barrel for leading.

[Bret4207]

From another thread asking the same question just last week-"Cast usually works at much lower pressures than jacketed. Just find a boolit of similar weight, cast or jacketed, or heavier weight and start with starting loads or even a bit less if you go with a heavier boolit. IOW- if your boolit is a 40 cal 183 gr ( actual weight) for instance and the only data you can find is for 170 jacketed, use a starting load or a bit less and work up.

Remember that even if data is in the Lyman, RCBS or Lee books it doesn't mean your boolit weighs what theirs did. As an example Lyman uses #2 alloy. Their 429421 might show a weight of 240 gr. Mine made of straight WW might weight 256 gr. If I use a softer alloy they might weight 263 gr. Someone else might make then of an extremely hard alloy and they may weight only 230 gr. In this example it's a 30gr+ spread and you start with the lower loads and work up. You just have to think a bit and use the classic handloading methods of yesteryear, when we didn't have access to 8 bazillion books, magazines and the internet to work with."

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, captain-03, that is a darned good question and shows that you are trying to be a safe and conscientious reloader. I wish some others approached the shooting arts with the same respect you do!

Sometimes there is no point in separating fly specks from spilled black pepper, and that applies for this particular concern. The advice already given is what you need; for instance, the data for starting loads has a rather large built-in leeway, and a starting load for a 170 grain boolit will work okay as a reference point for estimating a starting load for a 180-grain boolit when the 180 grain load has no data given for it. Just take the starting load for the 170-grain and back off a bit. Do some math, too, what I do is take 170/180 = 0.944 or 94%, so take 94% of the starting load of the 170 grain boolit and apply it to the 180-grain boolit. However, do NOT do this educated guess type of thing for top-end loads, it isn't good enough when you are twisting the lion's tail, and top-end loads MUST be very carefully worked up during warm weather. Temperature affects burning pressure of most powders, some powder types rather dramatically, others not. Anyway, starting loads of boolit weights that are fairly close will work for each other.

Another thing, which has been mentioned already, is to weigh your boolits since they don't come out exactly what the mould says since casting alloys can vary in specific gravity quite a bit. Tin metal and antimony are quite a bit lighter than the same volume of lead, and the amounts of alloying constituents mixed with the lead will make the resulting alloy lighter than pure lead. Some companies give the weight of pistol and rifle boolits when Lyman #2 alloy is used; but most round ball moulds give the weight when pure lead is used, and a good number of us casters only use wheel weight alloy (which can also vary a bit in specific gravity). So, it is a real mixed bag when it comes down to actual weight, what the beginning load is (and what the temperature is when developing top-end, full-house, loads).

There is a lot of data that can be studied at this site and Castpics, so take full advantage of the search function. Castpics is accessed by using the link that is near the bottom of the pages here, below the "Shootin' links" title that is written in large red letters.

Have fun!


rl541

[armexman]

Yup, a Captain alright.

[jonk]

If you want a load suggestion, list your caliber and bullet weight and many here would be happy to chime in.

Lee offers a cast bullet load reduction formula in their reloading book. It works fairly well for some powders but not so great for very slow powders without a case filler.

[Westwindmike]

So does Lee have load data in their loading manual for all of their boolits?

[Will]

Seating depth will make a difference in powder space which will make a diffrence in pressure. A148gr WC will take more space inside the case than a 148gr RN. This won't mean much in a big case but can make a big difference in a small case like a 380. So when using another bullets data watch the seating depth as well as weight.

[theperfessor]

My only caveat when working up loads for unlisted (in a good loading manual) bullets is to start with a bullet that has a similar shape and weight to your Lee boolit. We all know that a dangerous high-pressure situation can be created when an autoloader "telescopes" a boolit down into a case.

For example, using a recommended load for a 150 gr .38 SWC, where a lot of the slug sticks out of the case, to work up a load for a 140 gr full wadcutter, which is lighter but seats deeper into the case and reduces case volume, could be an iffy proposition safety-wise. Maybe safe at lowest end, could be dangerous at upper end.

Just my thoughts.

(Will - I was composing my reply as you posted yours; I think we're on the same page here...)

[Leftoverdj]

So does Lee have load data in their loading manual for all of their boolits?

Nope.

Not needed for the reasons given.

[j20owner]

So does Lee have load data in their loading manual for all of their boolits?

Also, if you look at a Lee 'manual' closely, you'll see they've just 'borrowed' data from powder manufacturers. I know for a fact that all the Hodgdon data in the Lee book is exact duplication of Hodgdon's online data.

[snaggdit]

So does Lee have load data in their loading manual for all of their boolits?

As said, no. But they do have many listings for lead boolits for many calibers. Not every weight of course. I have found that you can use the bracketing method with fair accuracy to start working up a load this way.

For Example: My 45 200gr RF drops at 215gr with WW. I want to use AA#2. Lee's load book has a lead boolit listing for 200gr and 230gr. Start/end of 5.2/5.8 and 5.0/5.6. I feel fine about starting at 5.1 and working up from there. With this spread I would go in .1gr increments 10 shots of each. (My 45 likes 5.5gr.)

Another example, little more inference: I have a 356 111gr round nose mold that i want to use in my 9mm. It drops at 113gr. I have a bunch of red dot and want to find load data. The Lee data lists 125gr lead boolit with red dot at 4.3/4.5. They also list 125gr jacketed with red dot at 4.3/4.6. For 115gr there is no listing for lead with red dot. They do list 115gr jacketed at 4.3/4.5 with red dot. I would feel fine starting with 4.3gr red dot and working up in .05gr increments. I would use the seating depth for the 115gr jacketed. (I ended up at 4.5gr)

With the rifle data, sometimes the powder you have on hand is not listed near the bullet weight range you want to find a load for. I have had good results finding a powder with a similar burn rate that has data for both the weight I am looking for and another where my powder is listed (preferrably higher). I do the math and find a start weight. I do not do this for powders that have more than 5% difference in start weights for the other weight, though. Don't go to extremes here. For example, I'm talking you want a 165gr load and they have your powder listed for 180gr. Don't try this if you want a load for 220gr and your powder is listed for 150gr.

Hope this isn't way off base, if I am you folks with more experience please chime in.

[captain-03]

Thanks!! Learning something for almost EVERY post -- KEEP IT COMING!!

[SciFiJim]

Lee offers a cast bullet load reduction formula in their reloading book. It works fairly well for some powders but not so great for very slow powders without a case filler.

Can someone with that book share with us what that formula is?

[snaggdit]

It is powder specific for each load. For example: 30-06 180gr jacketed using H4895 lists 1 gr velocity factor of .9835 and 1 gr pressure factor of .9517. This allows you to take the max load of 46gr and vel of 2638 and pressure of 58560 PSI and work down for each 1 gr powder reduction to adjust for pressure or velocity max you are looking for. I've seen it suggested that this works easy by setting up a simple spreadsheet and dragging the formula you set up down for as many lines as you want. Depending on the speed of powder, though, IIRC you do not want to go down more than 40%. Slow powders being less reduceable.

[captaint]

Capt'n - Lee does include loading data (and a decent amount) in with their loading dies. They don't specify THEIR bullet but there's listings for cast and jacketed and quite a bit of it. Enjoy - Mike

[runfiverun]

i did a full run down on the lee numbers once with 4895 and a 150 jaacketed bullet it was pretty close velocity wise.
considering my bbl was 4" shorter they were 150 fps off or about 50 fps with bbl length and lot difference of the powder.
now back to the real question.
i just weigh 10 of my sized and lubed bullets do the average and call that the weight.
then i look for data with boolits of that weight and target a velocity i want keeping an eye on pressures.especially in the rifle stuff.
experience works here as i have a load that works well in my 308 so i try that load first in the 7.65 7.7 303 7.5x55 etc.
for the 44 there a ton of loads available for cast and jacketed if it's a 260 gr boolit you have 250 data at the starting level is close enough.

[geargnasher]

Captain03, Let me reiterate a VERY important point already mentioned at least once in case you lost it among the other good info: WEIGH YOUR BOOLITS, you may be very surpised at the difference from published weights, I have seen differences of as much as 18% on the heavy side which can make even a starting load very dangerous.

Gear

[captain-03]

Captain03, Let me reiterate a VERY important point already mentioned at least once in case you lost it among the other good info: WEIGH YOUR BOOLITS, you may be very surpised at the difference from published weights, I have seen differences of as much as 18% on the heavy side which can make even a starting load very dangerous.

Gear

I will assume that you wiegh the bullet AFTER applying the lube and gascheck?

[Jumping Frog]

I will assume that you weigh the bullet AFTER applying the lube and gascheck?
Yes. Total mass is what matters.

I don't worry about it with my Alox-lubed boolits because the weight of the lube is less than the weight variation from boolit to boolit. But I definitely weigh my gas checked boolits after GC + Lube.

[405]

All excellent info so far.

One common fallacy about published reload data... no matter the source.... is that it will never give exact prediction for subsequent load ballistics. That data was gleaned using an individual, unique "gun" that may be significantly different from any other gun for which the data was intended. That is why all manuals (data sources) provide the caveat of begin at suggested start levels and work up taking note of pressure signs. The nature of cast bullet shooting helps in that it's usually focused at the lower end of pressure levels. Two areas of concern already mentioned include use of very fast pistol powders or very small quantities of very slow powders.

[captain-03]

Thanks guys!! I am going to give all this a try!! I really appreciate all the comments and assistance!!

[wallenba]

I am about the pull what little hair I have left out! Where in the world does one find loading data for Lee Moulds?

I own the new Lyman and Speer books and have searched the Lee all the powder web sites to no avail!!

Lee makes all these wonderful moulds BUT publishes NO loading data for their product. I am not a brave soul when it comes to reloading - expermentation is not something I relish doing.

I have read from some posters here to just use the load data for the same grain bullet ... and, I have done this in some cases. However, Lee makes many moulds that the weight for a particular caliber is not listed in any of the manuals ....

Again, where can one find loading data for Lee Moulds?

I have the same problem, the Lee manual usually gives data for the same weight and type of bullet but with no pictures and abbreviated discriptions leaving you unsure of the seating depth. If you find that their recommended C.O.A.L. coincides with the crimp groove when laid next to the empty case, it is probably the same one. Start with lowest load. Also, most bullets of the same type and weight will have roughly the same dimensions, lube and crimp grooves may vary. The Speer manual photos are life size. If you use a dial caliper try measuring from top edge to bottom edge (remember that these pics are tilted a bit, and some have bevel bottoms).The micro-band lswc Lees seem to be the same size as the ones in the Speer book at least for my 200 lswc .452 and my 240 lswc .430. Also try looking up your powder manufacturers website they usually publish load data for their products that you will not find in books. The lee website has a tech, Pat, who can help a little too. Go to their site, look up "FAQS" and the e-mail address is in there somewhere. My problem with Lee molds is that the weights are inconsistant if you are using pre-alloyed lead. Their weights are (I think) determined by using 98% lead 2% tin. Remember adding more % alloys drops the weight. Also check out ammosmith on youtube great videos! He covers a lot of stuff! Good luck.

[HiVelocity]

Www.Loadswap.com is a pretty decent web site under the Beartooth Bullet banner.

I just usually go to this web site and find a bullet in like caliber and heavier in the weight I plan to load for. Use their load data for my cast bullet [since its lighter],
it will shoot fine.

Most I know usually start 2-3 grains less than what is posted and work up from there.


Good Luck

HiVelocity