Throwing Charges - weight vs volume

[sundog]

I've been following the SEE thread that digressed into talking about checking charge levels. I thought I'd see how many y'all throw weight vs volume charges and how you check them.

Me? I have several different scales, RCBS, Lyman, and Lee. All of them throw repeatable charges (otherwise I wouldn't use them). Generally, I will check a charge weight in the data or my notes, set the dump, and check it with a scale. Then, go to loading by volume. Dump the charge, visually check it, and seat the boolit, repeat. I've tried trickled charges vs volume charges and can't tell the difference. My trickler is sitting on the shelf collecting dust. sundog

[StarMetal]

Corky,

Well with the B&M I don't have much use for my trickler either and it is dusty, very dusty. I do pretty much like you do except I recheck say about every 10 loads...maybe longer if they are droppoing good. With the small pistol calibers I shoo you have to be careful of the charge because a little extra with them increases pressure dramatically.

Joe

[sundog]

Even on my Lee turrets when loading pissola ammo with the powder thru dies, I visually inspect each throw to be sure it looks right. Takes only a second. If I am sitting just right in relation to the press I can see in the case anyway, so no big deal.

On larger cases and charges it becomes even less of a problem. Here's ya one to show what I mean. I shoot [I think 50.0] IMR7383 in '06 with a 168 BTHP for a nominal 2400 fps, ES in teens, and SD single digits. I recorded that several times over the chrono. Last summer I shot a 199-11X in slow fire prone with this load at 200 (NRA High Power - we shoot reduced course because that's all we have). Also shot several other over 190, so it was not a fluke. Point is, those were dumped, not weighed, charges. Don't get much better.

Here's another thing, and I think I've mentioned it before. Dump a charge on the scale so it is zeroed. Leave it several days and see if the pointer has moved, sometimes it will. Moisture + or -. Will that charge still shoot the same? You won't be able to tell the difference. Weighs different, but volume is same. sundog

[robertbank]

I load far more pistol than I do rifle but here aer my observations for what they are worth.

I use a Dillon 550.

With ball and flake powders such as Titegrooup and 231 once I get the Dillon measure set it throws consistent charges and after I am satisfied I have it right I load 200 - 50o cases without ever bothering to check. Nary a problem to date.

Unique takes a bit more time to get right but once set I'll go 100 cartridges before checking and have found little to no variation.

Now with my rifle loads, call me paronoid and bear in mind I have limited experience here , I use the Dillon like a single stage as far as weighing charges. I weigh each one on a RCBS balance beam scale especially with extruded powders like H 4831. For me it is faster to drop a charge a pinch light and trickle up to what I want. I then immediately return case to press and finish off the round. For me this is much faster than using a single stage press and using a loading block like I used to. Since I develop load for rifle only for hunting, speed is not an issue (30-06/.30-30) and I am not sure I would feel comfortable not wighing each powder charge with rifle cartridges. As time goes on I may change my mind but not yet.

I should add I seldom go max with pistol, having developed loads for my .45acp/9MM autos that make PF for IDPA/IPSC and are pleasant to shoot and are more accurate than I can shoot.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Unless every charge is weighed, we are loading a particular VOLUME of powder. It's just that there is no practical way to set volume on our measures, so we use weight to set a volumetric measure. IMO, that's why bench rest shooters all use thrown charges. When I'm checking a block full of charged cases, I'm looking to see if the level (volume) is the same. If they all look alike, I can shoot them with confdence and without ducking.

[August]

Pardon my being slightly off topic, but can the Belding and Mull be used with gunpowder in addition to propellant???

Thanks

[nighthunter]

Years ago I read some articles from the benchrest fellas. Most of them agreed that they liked shooting more than reloading and the majority of them reloaded on the volume basis versus the weighed basis. They were shooting groups that I've never been able to duplicate. I load quite a few rounds on my Dillon 550 and I have to say that the Dillon is a volume loading. I load both handgun and rifle and am very satisfied with my reloads.
Nighthunter

[waksupi]

Pardon my being slightly off topic, but can the Belding and Mull be used with gunpowder in addition to propellant???

Thanks

There's a difference?

[versifier]

I set the powder measure with the scale, then I check weigh a charge every 20-30 cases just to make sure nothing on the measure has loosened up. It never has, but some day it might, you never know. You can never be too careful with your life or your family 's or friends' lives. I used to use the trickler on varmint rifle loads for 300-400yds, but I read an article some years back about how a few tenths of a grain difference in a rifle charge of 35-50 grains wasn't enough to make any difference in group size or POI. Hmmm. So I says to myself, self, I says, let's test this out. I spent a week perforating targets at 200-400yds with the same bullet, cases, rifle rest, dial calipers and I found out that if it did make any difference, I couldn't measure it. Haven't used the trickler since. Must have been ten years of dust on it when I packed it last move two years ago.

[Blacktail 8541]

I used to do a lot of powder trickling for my rifle loads but no more. It is s waste of time. The small amount of variation is outwayed by the other variables that are mostly beyond control. I.E. small variations of ogive radius , imperfect seating, shooting pace, barrel condition, ect. Volume is the traditional way to throw black powder charges, while the grain measurement was developed for smokeless.

[35remington]

Even when I'm (rarely) weighing charges I don't use a trickler. I pick up a pinch between thumb and forefinger and trickle that way. Less tedious than twirling a tube. I bet most do it that way.

I don't have much patience for weighing unless it's long stick powder in lower volume high power rifle reloading. I often measure there too. Everything else, I measure rather than weigh.

[imashooter2]

I throw pistol charges and weigh rifle charges, mostly because I load pistol on a Dillon SDB and rifle in a single stage press. I have one of the PACT electronic dispensers which makes the trickling process pretty painless.

[Wayne Smith]

[QUOTE=35remington]Even when I'm (rarely) weighing charges I don't use a trickler. I pick up a pinch between thumb and forefinger and trickle that way. Less tedious than twirling a tube. I bet most do it that way. [Quote]

Yeah, I do it that way, too. It's still trickling, ain't it? Just using the natural tools.

[waksupi]

I used to be real fussy, and weigh every charge. Then, I got educated by some bench rest shooters. Weighing is a waste of time. find your load by weight, then measure the same amount of powder by volumn, assuming the same moisture content is maintained. Maybe Felix will chime in, as one of the true champion level bench shooters. My guess is, he wasn't weighing charges at the bench.

[felix]

That's right, Waksupi, volume counts. In fact we used to change volume based upon shooting characteristics, like adding one Culver click when a vertical string occurs. A Culver click is a click on a Culver scale (a certain volume change). These clicking gadgets have become popular in the last 10 years or so for all kinds of powder measures. Changing weight to throw as a variance from the set volume lowers the burnable nitrogen content, or raises it depending on if you are subtracting from the volume, or increasing it. ... felix

[robertbank]

So if I am reading this right and please chime in here Felix, once I have my powder bar set on my Dillon I need not worry about variances in weight, but rather rely on the fact it is throwing the same volume of powder each charge.

Stay Safe

[9.3X62AL]

I generally throw 95% of my charges with most powders, after a pretty finicky weight predication. I do have a preference for ball/spherical powders, and these seem to "throw" with less variation than do the large-grained extruded powders (e.g., IMR- and H-4350 and 4831, IMR-7828). Those fuels get thrown short and trickled up on an Ohaus scale.

[felix]

That is correct, Bob, assuming you have a clickable and repeatable measure. Once the powder lot has changed, or whenever the load is not performing as it should, then readjust by clicking either foward or backwards. This should take care of gun wear, spring wear, or whatever wear, or weather differences. A standard charge bar is not clickable on the Dillon, so moving it back and forth won't be "remembered" as in writing down your loads in terms of where the load is marked on the dial. ... felix

[BruceB]

My much-used Uniflow measure from RCBS has a lock ring with the knurling all but invisible due to wear, at this late date. That's because, once the volume is set, I use a small 6" pipe wrench or large slip-joint pliers to LOCK that sucker far tighter than fingers can manage.

It is NOT going to come loose and let the charge vary!

Even so, I still try to loosen the lock ring with my fingers whenever I think of it, which usually occurs about every ten rounds.

Since I rarely load to max pressure levels, I also never bother trickling those last few tenths of a grain of powder, either. I have abandoned 4759 simply because of its nasty habits in the measure, and don't miss it.

Most of my rifle rounds are loaded on my turret press, and I do not use a loading block because each round is completely processed to the loaded state once the empty, fired case is first placed in the shellholder. However, I usually do take a look at the powder level under a strong light before installing dacron or seating the bullet, as the case may be.

Another quick check I often use is to put the charged case on my 'lectronic scale, which has been "tared" (zeroed) with an empty case at the start of the loading run. THis means that all I'm really weighing is the powder charge. The weight variations among cases is simply ignored, and as long as the "tared" powder weight reading is within a grain or three, I'm satisfied that the charge was completely dropped from the measure.

[lovedogs]

Some years ago there was a great controversy over weight vs. volume and an article came out where someone did their research on the subject. It seems to me it was published in the American Rifleman. I don't remember all the particulars such as which cartridge or which powders, but it was shown that throwing charges with a good measure (don't remember which they used, either) proved to produce more accurate loads. We can get into a variety of opinions here such as relating to differences in case capacities, etc. But this extensive test showed it was more accurate to throw vs. weigh. That said, if my varmint guns (both rifles and pistols) will shoot groups of less than 1/2 MOA and my hunting guns (both rifles and pistols) will shoot 1 MOA or less I'm happy. I don't get overly obsessive about preparations, either. I've yet to weigh and segregate cases, uniform flash holes, or any of that stuff.... but I still like to know what's in that case. So, as I stated in another thread, I throw, weigh, and trickle all extruded and flake powders, and just throw ball and sphericals. In MY experience I've had variances of as much as a half grain by throwing some extruded powders. I've done enough long-range shooting to know that a half grain will affect velocity and trajectory enough to influence my shooting. And I don't shoot as many rounds as the match shooters so I have time to weigh when I think it's needed. Call me fussy! But just remember, if you are a Bin Laden or a varmint, you darn sure don't want to be my intended target!

[MGySgt]

FWIW -

I weigh pistol when working up a load, once I have my load I throw them from a Lyman 055. I do not shoot max loads.

Rifle - I always weigh/trickle them. I ran a test (45/90 - 41.5 grains of 3031, 430gr GC) with my Lyman 1200 where I just hit the button and when it beeped, I dumped the load in the case. (nomally all were within a 1/10 or so. Well the group of 10 rounds was over twice the size of the same base load trickled/weighed. we are talking 1 1/4 MOA to 2.5 - 3 MOA.

No thank you I will weigh all my rifle. But I do not see that variation with my pistol loads out to 50 Yards.

Drew

[Bret4207]

I use a Redding Bench Rest measure and a Lyman 55. The Lyman is set at 13.0 Red Dot and is never changed. I check before each session and it hasn't moved in 5 or 6 years, since I decided "The Load" worked for me and set it there. The Redding- I record the micromter setting for each load and start there. I'm usually within .5- 1.0 gr, if I wrote the right setting down! I weigh out until I get 5 charges right and go from there. I rarely load more than 50 -100 cases at a time and have not found any variation in the setting from start to finish. I don't load real hot except for the 250 Savage Ruger my son hunts with and then only with his deer load. No problems so far.

I also have a fondness for the Lee dippers. I started out with home made dippers and have had good sucess with dipping right along. I think the 1st cartrige I ever made up was the 32 WCF, a 100 Remington SP, SR-7625 and the Lee Loader. I had to go to an old guy who had a powder scale and we made a dipper for the sr-7625 load out of a 32 S+W case and a soldered on wire handle. Those were some of the ugliest rounds I ever saw, but they shot well enough for a kid. I got ahold of the Lee dippers after that and found consistancy is the big issue. It's the volume game again, same a any other measuring syatem. It works.

[nighthunter]

I weigh every charge when useing coarse grained powders like 4831 and 4350. Otherwise I prefer volume as with my Dillon press.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't weigh other then to check or work up loads. I will generally set the thrower to throw just short of or just on my starting weight, then use te trickler as I go up in weight.

I generally avoid Lincoln Logs and most of the powders available in Australia is not to hard to metre anyway. I mostly use ADI Powders in rifles and this is marketed in the states as Hodgson, they mostly metre ok.

What I do when loading on the Rockchucker is to throw the charges into the cases (for rifles I use my Redding and for pistols I use Lee). I then take them out into the sunlight or get under the light at night and compare the levels to see that they match. I used to take 5 randomly from each tray and check weight them. I do this with the Redding sometimes, but don't bother with the Lees, they have proven to be ultra consistent over the years. I will probably go back to checking the loads now that I am using small charges of Bullseye again as it doesn't metre as reliably as the others.

When I reload on the Lee1000s I don't bother weighing.

I would not suggets you follow this method until you develop absolute trust in your equipment and know how it and the components perform. This will take some time.

Proceed slowly.

By the way, I picked up a set of Lee scoops recently and I now use them to work out starting loads, going up a scoop level as recommended by R Lee. It is much faster than pi$$ing about adjusting weight levels for five cartridges.

When I get the load worked out I set the edding on the micrometer and reload with it.

Go slowly and be safe.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I forgot to mention that when I charge cases I lay them out in trays of 50 and then compare them.