BruceB's Cast Softpoints (as of MAY 2009)

[BruceB]

A lot of water's gone under the bridge, and a lot of new faces have arrived here. Hence, the mention of John Haviland's reference to the cast softpoint spurs me to review the whole process.

Also, my methodology has changed over the length of the experiment.

First, I must say that I've owned well-over 100 moulds, and have NEVER warped one or even seen a warped one among the dozens of used moulds which have come into my hands. It is NOT a problem.

Now then:

I embarked on my search for a good cast softpoint with one objective: TOTALLY RELIABLE PERFORMANCE ON GAME. I don't care about ease of production, because a mere dozen or so bullets will supply almost anyone's actual HUNTING needs for several years. I say this because the regular, non-softpoint bullets cast in the same mould can be used for practice and zeroing. Therefore, I'm willing to expend considerable effort to obtain predictable and consistent results.

I consider the Nosler Partition to be my benchmark and objective for cast-softpoint performance, meaning that a correctly-functioning cast softpoint should have 2/3 of its original weight intact after recovery from a carcass. This is the reason for my belief that the softnose portion should weigh 25 to 30 percent of the total bullet weight. There are bullets now on the market that retain more weight than do the Partitions, but the Noslers have worked exceedingly well for me on scores of big-game animals. Partition performance is VERY good performance, indeed, with their typical and reliable 2/3 weight retention.

Due to my commitment to absolute certainty, I was not interested in altering the hardness of already-cast bullets. Pure lead is an absolute and known quantity, and pure lead is what I want in my softpoints...PERIOD.

Reliability also means structural integrity. Many folks have made two-alloy softpoints in the past, and mostly report good results. However, photos of their bullets clearly show a flawed joining line of the two different metals. This is an invitation to separation, in my estimation, and even if it doesn't occur, the possibility is unacceptable for my purposes.

How do I make them?

1. Melt the pure-lead in the mould by heating the mould on top of the melt in the pot. Leave the sprue plate "open" so the melting can be observed. I have discovered that using LEAD split-shot of various sizes to make-up the desired softpoint weight is very simple, accurate and inexpensive. I have some "Water Gremlin" shot of various sizes, and these ones weigh 6, 14, and 29 grains. Other sizes are available.

2. Allow the softpoint to harden!!!!! You may even want to cast a bunch of softpoints and set them aside.

3. Place a cool softpoint in the mould and fill the mould with the harder base material, leaving a big sprue on the plate. If you were to look at the bullet now, it would be pretty ugly. No matter.

4. Float the mould on top of the melt until the sprue melts on top of the sprue plate. It'll take a while, and the pot should be at its maximum setting. CAREFULLY move the mould to a dish with the wet-cloth roll in it, and cool the mould until the sprue hardens again....and a little longer won't hurt. This might take as long as a minute, because things are HOT! Avoid jiggling as much as possible, because the cavity contents are liquid and we want to avoid disturbing the relationship between the hardnesses.

That's it! The new cast softpoint can be sized normally with a well-fitting nose punch, and the new bullet can even be oven heat-treated, because pure lead is not affected by heating and quenching.

Most importantly, THERE IS NO JOINT between the hardnesses. The bullet is a seamless flawless structure, with KNOWN hardnesses at each end.

Troublesome to do? Maybe for some, but not for my purposes of seeking best-possible results. I have yet to fire one of these into flesh, but Bullshop killed a moose with one and got spectacular results. He used a higher proportion of bullet weight in pure lead, almost 50% if I recall correctly, and opined that a smaller percentage of pure lead would be even better.

John H, like MANY readers, misses one of the most-important points: LET THE SOFTPOINT COOL, and pour the base metal on top of the hardened softpoint. This avoids most of the risk of mixing the two metals which exists if both are molten. Melting the two together AFTER the base metal has been added ensures that they are perfectly fused in the locations where we want them.

I hope this clarifies the procedure for anyone wanting to try it.

[felix]

Bruce, you should send a copy of this to Handloader as a reader comment to the article. ... felix

[Irascible]

Sounds like something I might try, thanks. I suspect lead split shot sinkers will soon become a thing of the past though. Seems as like one of the locking mould handles would be of good use here.

[Wayne Smith]

Bruce, now my dilemma. Have you figured out how to size one of these without destroying the nose??!! The few I've tried have crushed or deformed the nose. I would love to do this with the Lee .338 boolit sized for my Steyr 95/31 - if someone can come up with a way to do it without crushing the nose.

[Recluse]

Agree with Felix--would send this in to the editors of Handloading, and not JohnH.

:coffee:

[RayinNH]

Wayne, why not through a Lee push through or am I missing something? For the few that would be needed just pan or finger lube...Ray

[markinalpine]

Just my opinion :coffee:
BruceB;
I thank you for this information. I appreciate the idea of using lead split shot, which will usually be pure lead, as opposed to shotgun shell shot, which may be made with hardening alloys. Just a thought, but lead pellets for air guns should be pure lead too.
Mark :mrgreen:

[44man]

If you shoot a revolver make sure you do not use enough pure lead to extend below the crimp groove. They shoot better. I like mine just above the groove and I even mixed 1 WW ingot to 3 of pure but have not tried them yet. Deer season is too far off. Pure lead gets oxide too fast when storing loads or boolits.
I have never warped a mold.

[oneokie]

Bruce, now my dilemma. Have you figured out how to size one of these without destroying the nose??!! The few I've tried have crushed or deformed the nose. I would love to do this with the Lee .338 boolit sized for my Steyr 95/31 - if someone can come up with a way to do it without crushing the nose.


RayinNH's suggestion of using a push through sizer is very good. If a push through sizer is not available, using hot melt glue or epoxy to custom fit the top punch to the nose profile is an alternative.

[Shuz]

Nice article Bruce!
I use basically the same procedure you do for my .44's using the nose only portion mould of a Lyman 429625. This is a nose look-a-like to 429421 with a small tail that protrudes about 1/2 inch from it's base. I drop these cold pure lead noses, that look like male sperm on steroids because of the tail, into a ready to cast 429421 mould. The hot base alloy then swirls around the tail and bonds it real well.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

Very interesting, I may need to try working on this for the up-coming hog hunt.
Very good read indeed their Mr Bruce.

[ChuckS1]

Tried it tonight with a 454424. I can see the distinct difference in appearance between the darker pure lead and the lighter alloy, but no joint, per se.

[Catshooter]

Wayne,

If you contact (PM) Buckshot (here on this site) for a small fee he will make you as many blank top punches that you want. Then you grease a boolit, fill the blank of the top punch with epoxy (like JB Weld), place the top punch in the lubrisizer and the base of the boolit in the sizing die, then gently bring the two together. Wipe off the excess epoxy.

Come back in the morning and you will then have a top punch that will fit perfectly and will not distort or deform the soft lead nose.

I've done this several times, works a treat.


Cat

[jhalcott]

I just read Mr Haviland's article. He seems more interested in looks than results in the article. I have used these soft points made by the BruceB and double dipper method. The dipper method makes USABLE bullets that are not real pretty. A deer in the Eastern part of the USA will NOT be able to tell the difference. Accuracy at the range YOU will be shooting is more important than a pretty bullet. Since 99 per cent of the deer I shoot with cast are LESS than 100 yards from the gun, I use that distance to test accuracy.

[725]

Great information generously given. Thanks.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Thanks for the update BruceB. I like your approach, I will be trying this soon.

[Wayne Smith]

Wayne, why not through a Lee push through or am I missing something? For the few that would be needed just pan or finger lube...Ray

Gee, ahhh, Duhh! Talk about being fixated! I've even got a couple of those. Not in that caliber ... Yet!

[superior]

I'll share the method I use to make soft points. I simply float a flat bottom ladle on top of the melt. Then after cutting a bunch of 1/4oz stick-on ww's into 1/8 oz pieces, I chuck one into the ladle. After the glue melts and starts to burn, the ladle is tipped and the pure lead separates from the residue and is poured into one cavity. Then I quickly dip into the hard alloy and fill the rest of the cavity. While I'm waiting for the sprue to harden, I toss another 1/8oz piece of pure into the floating ladle. By the time I release the boolit into the water bucket, the next 1/80z nose is melted. I can make these as fast as regular boolits in a one cavity mold. I get no visible pronounced deviding line or seem between the two alloys and after extensive torture testing with a vice and a hammer, I've concluded that these boolits simply will not fail on impact. I've not been able to get the two alloys to separate. I water drop them because only the hard base will harden and my thinking is this will provide some grip in the rifling for higher hunting velocities. I realize that a speedy method is not that important but when many shots will be taken for varminting or small game, this quick method is very effective and above all, keeps it fun. I will be using the same method for deer and elk this year. So far I've only done these in .303 Brit and 7.62x39.

[LAH]

first, i must say that i've owned well-over 100 moulds, and have never warped one or even seen a warped one among the dozens of used moulds which have come into my hands. It is not a problem.

+1+1+1

[windrider919]

I mostly do the same as Superior wrote except I let the pure lead cool for ten (10) seconds before pouring in the harder alloy. I drop into water not to harden but instead to cushion the bullets hitting the bottom. I do not show a join line but do show a difference in lead color between the pure and alloy lead. The reason why I wait a few seconds is that I got irregular, uneven color, like mixing and several times the entire soft tip disappeared from mixing when 2nd pouring too quickly. To test these bullets I put them nose n tail to the jaws of a vise and tighten. The soft, pure lead will mushroom easily and crush completely before the hard base starts. Note: The bullets that show slanted or mixed alloy do not crush evenly which indicates to me that it would not mushroom evenly. I wonder how much mixing you get with both pours being returned to the molten state as described in the thread start?

[leadman]

44MAN, go to an auto supply store like NAPA and buy a can of spray graphite. This coats the boolits like a paint but is in fact better because it will help with lubrication.

Most engine builders spray the blocks and such to prevent the rust from forming after they are removed from the hot tank and washed.

[superior]

I'm sure I get at least 10 seconds delay between pours. I stir the melt for a few seconds to burn off the glue residue from the stick-ons. It seems to flux the alloy as I go. I also end up with a difference in color between the 2 alloys and they come out even wihout irregularities. I will also perform some compression testing but so far, I've only tried to destroy the boolits by whacking the noses sideways in a vice. They pass that test with flying colors.

[Alan in Vermont]

OK, bringing this one back from the dead seemed appropriate, considering the twists my wandering mind has been taking lately.

The soft-nosed casting thing intrigues me. Enough so that I cast a few 311440s with soft noses with two pots and a tiny ladle for the nose (cut down 9mm case with a wire handle). I got a few worth keeping but the noses are distinctly a seperate part from the body and will probably seperate when I actually try to shoot them in my 30-30. With the crude ladle it was a bear keeping dross from getting in the nose pour.

I may try it again but it's not something I really find enjoyable.

It's also not something I need to do as it has been years since I made any attempt to chase Bambi and with ailing hips and shoulders it's realisticly impossible for me to drag him out if I did get to dump his sorry carcass anyhow.

But, mixed in with all that is that I am looking for a beater 94 that I can have rebored/rechambered to 35-30/30 or 38-55 as a boolit test bed. That, in turn has me thinking of cast soft nose boolits once more.

The past several days have been spent nursing the worst of the bum shoulders so I have been browsing my stack of Handloader magazines. Lo, what to my wondering eyes should appear but two references to soft nose casting procedures.

Issue #105, Sept-Oct 1983, on page 32 has an article that describes casting such boolits using a special casting pot, from LBT/Veral Smith, which claims the ability to drop repeatable small amounts of pure lead for casting the nose portions which are then followed ASAP with the bulk of the body cast from another pot using hard alloy.

Issue #114, Mar-Apr 1985, on Page 26, has an article by Veral Smith about expansion of cast bullets with a picture, on Page 28, of his "Softnose Caster" pot.

So, for at least two years he was doing something with his pot. Has anyone here ever seen one? Heard of one? Know if they were ever released to the market? There is no mention of them on the LBT website.

The next time I get bored I will probably email LBT or get to feeling rich and call them to see what ever happened to that item.

[Jailer]

The key to getting a seamless joint is in the re melt. You must re melt the bullets to get both alloys to bond together. You'll know you got it right when you can see the two separate alloys but the joint is seamless.

My 405gr with 105gr soft lead nose that I cast for my 45-70.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/Softpoints.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/Gun%20stuff/Softpoints.jpg.html)

[btroj]

I love that bullet. Bet those are awesome on deer.

A cast soft nose just works. Not difficult to do. Not overly time consuming. Much easier than an HP.

[BruceB]

There seems to be a very short "institutional memory" in most fields of endeavor.

This 'softpoint' subject was intensively discussed on this site for quite a while. Some members have used this method to make bullets which gave VERY good results on game animals. Then, the concept just submerged, and newer folks still inquire about casting bullets that will expand AND hold together AND shoot accurately.

Allow me to reiterate:

-this method needs NO extra equipment, not pots, not moulds, not ladles, not ANYTHING. Veral is in business to make money, of course, and ;
,
-this method may be used with ANY of the moulds we already have, repeat; ANY MOULD;

-the softpoints cast with this method ONLY have to be used for actual shots at game, since zeroing and practice can be done with non-softpoints from the same mould. This means that very few actual softpoints will be needed... a handful could last for years! (For example ,my .416 Rigby lands its softpoints right in the same group as the non-softpoints from 100 yards, and the weight difference is negligible. Other rifles give similar results.)

I recommend using split-shot sinkers for the soft-lead nose component... wash them in acetone or other good solvent to rid them of oil etc, and COUNT the required number to give the desired weight. This saves an extra casting step.

I'm glad to see this subject re-surface.... there was a good bit of research involved in coming up with the method.

[btroj]

I have a little 4 pound Lyman pot I melt pure lead in for the soft noses. I use a dipper made from a handgun case to get the nose the size I want. With sprue plate open I pour nose, close plate, put mould in melt to remelt nose, then pour base. Works like a charm.

[bhn22]

+1+1+1

Add my name to the list too.

[Ole]

Bruce I had forgotten that I wanted to try your method back when I first read about it. I will try this with some small lead RB's and the Lee c309120 mold tomorrow with the aim of making some 30 carbine soft point ammo.

[Jailer]

I have a little 4 pound Lyman pot I melt pure lead in for the soft noses. I use a dipper made from a handgun case to get the nose the size I want. With sprue plate open I pour nose, close plate, put mould in melt to remelt nose, then pour base. Works like a charm.

I used a Lee 356-102-1R and cast up a small bunch out of pure lead. They cast at 110gr with pure. Pretty simple to just drop one of these in each cavity to start each one off. The shank is straight wheel weight.


I love that bullet. Bet those are awesome on deer.



I took a doe with one, my first kill with a cast boolit, a couple weeks ago. I would have loved to been able to recover it but at 1300 FPS at a range of about 20 yards it would have taken about 3 deer to stop one.

[btroj]

I haven't shot a deer with that bullet but 2 black bears were down range from it. Neither went far at all. Mine were going more like 1650.

[MarkP]

89018
Tom at Accurate Molds made this mold from my drawings. Tip is about 115gr; other two cavities are 247 & 273.

[Ole]

Well I finally tried it. Mixed results:

This is what I made in about 2 1/2 hours of work (that includes casting the lead round balls):

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/a8711a35-fa78-41ed-9890-0d97fc5b9a57_zpsc16598f4.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Ole1830/media/a8711a35-fa78-41ed-9890-0d97fc5b9a57_zpsc16598f4.jpg.html)

The aluminum mold was rough going at first, but I figured it out after a bit. Second from the left looks like it didn't get 100% "fused".

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/closup120r_zpse0369065.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Ole1830/media/closup120r_zpse0369065.jpg.html)

Bruce how do you make big bullets without the bases frosting very badly with your method? Every single 250k bullet I made was badly frosted in the "hard" part of the bullet.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/closeup250k_zps55700293.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Ole1830/media/closeup250k_zps55700293.jpg.html)

My round balls were pure lead, and the bases were poured with 3:1 ww:lino.

Did I use the wrong base alloy, or let the mold sit in the alloy too long?

Anyway I'm glad I finally tried this. I might talk a buddy into letting me shoot his ballistics gel with the soft nose bullets to see what they do in a media.

Not sure if I'll try it again though. The process seems very hard on molds with getting them hotter than I normally get them.

Anyhow back to watching football! :drinks:

[Jailer]

Looks like you got the mold too hot. You have to get the mold out of the top of the pot as soon as the sprue re melts and get it on a wet towel to cool. If I remember correctly I had a small fan running while I was casting mine to help cool the mold.

I'd leave out the lino and just use straight wheel weights for the main pour.

[BruceB]

There's nothing wrong with frosty bullets, as long as there are no reduced-diameter areas. However, if you think the mould is getting too hot, just cool its bottom for a few seconds on the wet pad, as well (after the sprue has solidified).

Those bullets don't really look too bad for a first try.... we have to walk before we can fly, es verdad? A trial in ballistic gel will very likely surprise you. I'd load them and fire them into some test media to see what happens.

I fired my .416-350 softpoints s at 2000 fps into a row of six one-gallon jugs of water sitting on a 2x6 board, and backed-up by newspaper in a milk carton. The bullets penetrated ALL SIX jugs and were found in the newspaper. They expanded to .80 caliber and retained about 2/3 the original weight....just about what I was hoping for. The force of the impact also SPLIT the six-foot long 2x6 for its full length. I'd be pretty confident of the lethality of that load.

[Blammer]

ah a good 5 C comes in handy for 'fast production' of your softnose projectiles. :)

[Ole]

ah a good 5 C comes in handy for 'fast production' of your softnose projectiles. :)

I didn't mind the time spent today making these. I would never try it to make bullets in any serious qty, but it was fun to see what I could do. Also fun to get reacquainted with my 4lb Lee dipper pot. :mrgreen:

Thank you for the excellent gas checks from a few weeks ago, BTW. I'm never buying Lyman or Hornady ever again as long as you're in business. :drinks:

[BruceB]

I've never tried making softpoints in a mould with more than two cavities. I do have many 3- and 4-cavity moulds, and there's no reason it wouldn't work, as far as I can see. I'll have to give it a go.

MarkP, that's a lovely mould, and a very good idea. Let us know how it works out when you re-melt noses and bases together, will you?

One more thing that's lacking in my decades of casting, is that I have NEVER had the chance to cast with a brass mould, only iron and aluminum. Someday I'll rectify that omission.

[Ole]

One more thing that's lacking in my decades of casting, is that I have NEVER had the chance to cast with a brass mould, only iron and aluminum. Someday I'll rectify that omission.

Bruce an FYI, my intent today was to use my MiHec 10mm 4 cavity brass mold with those 000 buckshot pellets (I had it out on the table), but the mold was way too big to dip into my Lee 4lb pot, so I switched to the RCBS 250k to improvise.

[nanuk]

could one use a hotplate for heat instead of the lead pot??? that way, even long 6C moulds could be used

[NSP64]

I Don't see why not.

[giz189]

This is the easiest method I have used to make soft points. Thanks for all your research and info BruceB. Also, if you don't try the lead fishing line shot idea, you are just making it harder to do.

[Ole]

Bruce I shot one of the RCBS 250 K bullets made with your method into ballistics gelatin today and was impressed.

Nose portion didn't separate from the shank, expanded nicely and the final bullet weighed 225 grains after penetrating 32 inches into the blocks at 1450fps (started out at 255 grains).

I'm SOLD! :drinks: Thank you for the tutorial.

[Ole]

Here are the pics:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/IMG_5928_zps98f19066.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Ole1830/media/IMG_5928_zps98f19066.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/IMG_5929_zps240cc6d6.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Ole1830/media/IMG_5929_zps240cc6d6.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/IMG_5930_zps83f76915.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Ole1830/media/IMG_5930_zps83f76915.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/IMG_5931_zps6d5d2eb1.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Ole1830/media/IMG_5931_zps6d5d2eb1.jpg.html)

[Von Gruff]

This is at 2415fps
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Cast%20bullets/006.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Cast%20bullets/006.jpg.html)

and does this on paper
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Cast%20bullets/005-1.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Cast%20bullets/005-1.jpg.html)

and this on meat
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Goats-Castsoftnose006.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Goats-Castsoftnose006.jpg.html)