Glocks

[Leftoverdj]

I've been reading a lot about Glock blowups with cast bullets on other boards. None of the posters have impressed me with their knowlege of cast bullets. (Or of anything else, for that matter.) I'll put the question to the folks I like and respect.

Is there a real hazard to using appropriate cast bullet loads in Glocks?

[StarMetal]

Leftoverdj,

I'm been following this pretty close. I've come to the conclusion that there are possibly two reasons for the blowups. One is the firing pin striking the cartridge out of battery...even as much as 1/8 to 1/4 inch out of battery. The other is the supposed lead build up front of the chamber. On another post I stated that I couldn't see a bulid up of lead in front of the chamber that would cause a Glock to not go into battery to the degree of the figures I gave above, so I'm leary about this lead build up. I'm just not seeing it with my Glock 45acp. Also my Glock is in the below 1 decimal figures that it will fire out of battery, if it could even be called that. If I put a sheet of printer paper between the barrel hood and the breech face, my Glock will not fire. Now I can see if a Glock will fire out of battery to the tune of the figures above, that something would blow. More honestly lets say it fires 1/4 inch out of battery. That really leaves alot of the case exposed and the breech pretty well open. I would say the case would rupture and not burst the chamber portion of the barrel. If so that brings us back to a blowup with a pretty much fully closed battery and, well, the lead build up theory again. So I'm still investigating.

Joe

[fecmech]

Leftoverdj--IIRC reading Glock Talk some time back the cartridge that figured heavily in the lead bullet blow up catagory was the .40 S&W. I don't ever remember anything in regards to 9MM or the .45. Also if you follow those boards to any extent you find very little lead bullet knowlege or expertise. The .40 is a pretty hot cartridge and if you get some throat leading it can put you up pretty high pressure wize in a hurry. Nick

[Leftoverdj]

Fec, been there and reached exactly the same conclusions. I don't like to be overly hasty, though, so I am not quite ready to dismiss all the reports as the predictable results of morons messing with stuff they don't understand.

[StarMetal]

fecmech,

I'll hang with Leftoverdj, to be honest I don't think all that many 40 S&W owners shoot cast bullets. I also don't concider a caliber that's high on a cast shooters list of semi-auto calibers. You talked about the 40 being a pretty high pressure round, which it is, but what would a person be doing loading a cast load to the jacketed loads high pressure? Before you answer I realize that maybe they could have been running some mild cast loads through their pistol and then shot some hot jacketed loads behind them, without cleaning the barrel out first.

Joe

[Stray Round]

I've put quite a bit of lead through the Glocks without any problem. Also, haven't had a leading problem with the Glocks rifling as is sometimes rumored.

I wonder if some of these blowups with the Glocks in 40 s&w is not due to rounds that have been repeatedly chambered and have reduced the oal of the round? Or possibly loaded with a very short oal to begin with?

[August]

The .40 is not completely supported in the Glock chamber. Particularly, there is about 25% of the circumference that is unsupported for about a third of the cartridge length. This causes a characteristic BULGE in the bottom portion of the case wall upon firing. So, in a sense, the cartridge is already overpressure for this chamber. If you add dimensional variation to the bore, then this situation can get quickly out of hand. Other calibers in Glocks don't have this problem. For this reason (and a few others) I only own .357 sig and 9mm Glocks. I do have a couple of acquantances that regularly shoot lead in their .40 Glocks -- so far, without trouble.

Now to the nitty-gritty. Glock emphatically warns users to use only factory new ammunition with jacketed projectiles. So, if you use lead in a Glock, you are way out there on your own. A number of loading handbooks also warn against loading lead in the .40 for Glocks and go so far as to state that none of their data should be used with the Glock .40 pistol.

Lots of guys get aftermarket barrels that fully support the round and go on to use lead projectiles. The problem is not the projectile but the design of the pistol.

[Leftoverdj]

Starmetal, the blowups I have seen documented involved attempts to make major power with bought cast plain base of unknown hardness and lube in .40 S&Ws. I'm not surprised they blew up guns.

What I am trying to find out is whether any experienced caster has had Glock problems with sensible loads.

[castalott]

A friend of mine blew up a 40 cal TWICE! The ammo he was using was letting the feedramp push the bullet deep into the case. ( Found this out too late....) The older I get, the better I like the 'lower' pressure rounds....

[StarMetal]

Starmetal, the blowups I have seen documented involved attempts to make major power with bought cast plain base of unknown hardness and lube in .40 S&Ws. I'm not surprised they blew up guns.

What I am trying to find out is whether any experienced caster has had Glock problems with sensible loads.

Leftoverdj,

That's exactly what I was saying in the previous....were they loading lead to high pressure...you just answered that.

As to the other poster saying that Glock designed the chamber wrong for the 40. How is that possible? We're not talking about an idiot company...those folks in Austria are smart. They couldn't possibly over looked the 40's high pressure. I know there were a few chambers pictures on websites of other brands, I'd like to see a comparison of them all.

Joe

[mooman76]

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

I got this from Versifier the other day when I asked this question on post Glock22!

[9.3X62AL]

If I get a Glock 40 S&W--and Marie has been at least temporarily distracted from that perversity by getting the SIG-Sauer Mosquito--I won't fire reloads of any type in the stock barrel.

Not the first time I've written this--and I tend to agree that lead bullets in and of themselves aren't the problem with Glock kB occurrences. Some factor prompts over-pressures, either powder over-charges or deeper seating (intentionally or via the feedramp), or both.

The straw breaking the camel's back is the distended portion of a previously fired case that gets ironed back into factory dimensions by the sizer die. This heavily-worked portion of the case gets work-hardened and weakened by this process, then gets exposed to over-pressure as above, and--since we know that Murphy's Law gets no plea bargains--the weakened portion of that over-pressure cartridge aligns itself with the unsupported chamber area of the barrel, and you get the hand-held sub-compact Hiroshima effect known as a "Glock kB".

I posed this supposition to a couple Glock factory types that were trying very hard to sell the Glock system to my old agency. The tech rep gave me the kind of look that royal retainers reserve for a news reporter that sprung a factual story about the Crown Prince being a cross-dressing vegan with a compulsive preference for truck stop rest rooms. He curtly answered, "Limit usage to factory ammunition".

He took me aside later, and said that while he wasn't in a position to verify my guess, the scenario I presented "had considerable merit".

In fairness to Glock--it and the SIG-Sauer 220/230/240 series pistols are the ONLY self-loading pistol systems that I consider to be good-to-go right out of the box for self-protection work. A little lube on the slide rails, fill it up, and take it into battle.

Further, the 40 S&W as chambered in the 9mm-based platforms it is typically found housed within is an intense, high-pressure round contained in a package that is often at the upper end of its strength rating so chambered. SIG-Sauer had to do a major slide re-design on its 220-series pistols to enable use of the 40 S&W and 357 SIG. ANY attempt to extend the already strained capabilities of this caliber past the "180 grain @ 950 FPS" envelope is unwise in the extreme. 180 grain castings at 850 FPS give reliable functioning in a number of service-grade 40 S&W pistols I've tried out, and provide a cushion of safety I find comforting in this intense screamer of a pistol round. As I wrote on another thread--if a 10mm is needed, it should be purchased--not developed from a 40 S&W.

[azcoyhunter]

Shooters

I do not have near the experience aas most/all of you do, but I have shot my Glock 30 for years with cast boolits, and have not had any problems.

Clint

[Ron]

I have not experienced any problems using 124 grn TC HARD cast boolits and Felix lube in my Glock 34. My reading of the various boards and discussions with my firearms dealer lead me to think that the reported KB's ( mostly 40cal ) are possibly results of inappropriate loads and or not enough cleaning of the factory barrel. To date, I have not had any leading problems either in the barrel or ramp of the 34.

Ron

FESTINA LENTE.

[Stray Round]

Castalot that's the first time I've had some verification on my idea of too short an aol lenght causing the kabooms. However, I once asked one of the firearms instructors of a large dept. next to mine if they's experienced any problems with the 40 s&w after switching from the 9mm. He said the only problems was that they'd had a blown extractors from individuals who'd continually rechamber the top round and shortened the aol.

I have alot of doubts about the idea of Glock's unsupported chamber. Maybe the Glock's that I've seen have been chambered diffrently but I haven't found one that had less support than any other manufacturer's. All have support to the web of the case. Also, I've checked a few Glocks and claimed rights to the above dept's brass and collected other dept's brass that used our agency's range. I have found exactly one casing that had any noticable bulge that looked like it might have fired out of battery.

The idea of the gun firing out of battery or blowing the case on an unsupported chamber doesn't make sense for causing the kabooms. I can see the magazine being blown out and frame damage but not the barrel and slide peeling that I've seen photos of on the net. If the case lets go in either instance it would seem to me it would place less pressure on the slide and barrel and not more than if the case was fired in battery or had not blown. Wouldn't the case letting go be a pressure release compared to pressures generated in a fully supported chamber?

The catastrophic failures I've seen on the net seeemed to be caused by greater pressures than normal. To me, that's either too short an aol or a double load or bridging of the powder charge throwing a heavy load in one case.

I have also fired up to 1k cast bullets in a G19 without cleaning. I kept an eye on the ejection patten to make sure none were being thrown out of the country and inside the barrel when the slide rails were lubed. There was no build up of lead or lube in front of the chamber(keep an eye on the striker and striker tunnel on the slide though it can build up there). The gun cleaned up with solvent and a few brush strokes. I have had problems with leading in the SIG with reg. rifling but not the Glocks in 40 cal.

Not trying to flame or be disagreeable, just throwing out another idea. I'd like to know the answer too.

[StarMetal]

Stray Round,

Bless you my fellow shooter. I agree 100 percent with you post. You're right in that Glocks DON'T have any more unsupported web area then any other gun. You're right too if a round fires out of battery it should blow the web out, which normally blows the magazine out of the pistol, rather then destroy the barrel. When the 38/45 wildcat was popular for the 1911 it blew quite a few cartridge webs out and that usually blew the magazine out of the pistol and grips off the gun, with NO damage what-so-ever to the barrel.

Glocks have been a controversal pistol from the first day they made their appearance because they were one of the first to use a polymer frame and have a radically different pistol. Another equally famous controversal firearm is the M16. When there is a radical change of something people like in this world they tend to pick on it rather then try to see it's good qualities.

One more thing, I was looking at my latest Hodgdon manual and it made a specific statement about reloading the 40 S&W. It said to only use it in a FULLY supported chamber, that using it in one that wasn't could bulge the web and in the worse case, blow the web out. They mention no other cartridge that does that and they mentioned no manufacturers.

It's the nay sayers that bring all these catastrofies about the Glock, because it's in the limelight yet and have even gone as far to start forums on the failures of such. Heck 1911's have had alot of bad things happen to them too, probably maybe even more then a Glock. To add to the mayhem you have a bunch of novices that tell what they think problems are and they haven't a clue. Like the leading of the barrel ahead of the chamber. I'm not seeing it in any Glocks I or my friends have and now you add you're not seeing it in your Glock. Perhaps some agent of an aftermarket barrel company started these rumors to sell more barrels.

Joe

[Tonto]

thousands fired, never a problem, even an accidental overload in a 45ACP nickel case that bubbled the brass in the unsupported section and ejected the case about 25 feet high and away....no KaBoom......found that lino slugs lead the bore in both guns but they clean out easy....I keep the gun clean and the loads moderate and don't expect to have a problem....think that the occasional KB is from a deep seated bullet, overload and/or other bad combos that do happen, Other guns occasionally blow, not the same fuss made..it ain't the rifling...

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it. My buddy blew up a .357 sig glock using cast bullet loads. He came to the realization that he double charged the case. He knew the recoil was very high on that round. Now id about be theres a reason glock tells you not to shoot cast. They know for a fact that just about all cast bullet loads are handloads and they know that the best chance of a double charge is with a handload. Im not buying into the fact that a cast bullet load properly made with the right powder charge right seating dept and right crimp is any more dangerous in a glock then a jacketed round is. Ive loaded probably 2000 midrange 10mm loads for another buddy and his glock using many differnt cast bullet designs and his glock has ate them all and shot them all just as accurately as factory ammo

[six_gun]

Let me start off by saying that I don't own a Glock, never have and probably never will. It isn't because I don't like Glocks, I just am a bit old fashioned and strongly prefer a sixgun.

I do quite a bit of loading for other people but I will not load any ammo for a Glock in 40 S&W.

Several years ago I got a Laser Cast loading manual an as I like to do, I read what they had to say about each different calibur and loads for it.

Fo the 40 S&W they had a big warning, not to reload for a Glock in 40 S&W. They stated that the Glock 40 cal pistols were built on 9mm specs and as a result they had a unsupported chamber. They also gave a "beware" of other manufactures with unsupported chambers.

I took it to heart. If you are looking for a reason for KBs in Glocks, there is the reason. If you want to load for your Glock 40, buy new brass, each time and load away. No amount of wishing things were different or trying to figure out other reasons will change the facts. If you choose to ignore the facts, please use the hand that you can get along without when shooting your re-loads.

Sixgun

[Whittey]

http://www.hs2000talk.com/viewtopic.php?t=29169

Had to register just so I could link this. Someone asked above for pics of chambers, and I recalled a thread on the XD forum about such things. Not my pics, but thought I could help shed some light on the situation.


-=Whittey=-

[StarMetal]

whittey

It doesn't shed any light, all it does is add more fuel to the Glock fire. Probably no other pistol had more unsupported case area then the 1911 and to boot it didn't have an integral ramp...which added more to it's unsupported area. Depends what manufacture made them, or who made after market barrels, or who relieved and radiaus them too much.

Another thing too, I'd like to see the barrel on about 100 40 S&W Glocks to just see if some are lemons. My 45 Glock sure doesn't have much unsupported area but then again it's a different model then the 40, but it's still a Glock so is that to tell me it does or doesn't have the same barrel function that does or doesn't tilt as much?

Joe

[yammerschooner]

Here is a pic of the difference in support between the factory and a Storm Lake aftermarket barrel for my .40 G23. I hope it shows up well enough for you to notice. I went with the aftermarket because I figured with the warnings about reloads, and then lead in 40 I may as well spring 100 for a traditionally rifled, more supported barrel.

(edited to add) The black one is factory.

[StarMetal]

yammerschooner

You know, that Glock barrel doesn't really have bad support. Amazing what rumors and gun bashing can do.

Joe

[yammerschooner]

yammerschooner

You know, that Glock barrel doesn't really have bad support. Amazing what rumors and gun bashing can do.

Joe


Yeah, but for a mere $100 for the additional barrel and room for the leading to go into that polyagonal doesn't have I figure it is worth it. Besides, chamber is noticeably tighter (you can rattle them and hear the difference). My brass should last longer.

I am still working the kinks out of the new one. I've been sitting on some crimp problems for about a month now and need to do some loading and range time to get them ironed out.

[StarMetal]

That leading in a Glock barrel is a bunch of ********.

Joe

[Four Fingers of Death]

That's what we found with the 40S&Ws at work. We apparently blew one up on the first mag. No leading there. What our armourer thinks is that the gun will fire slightly out of battery and combined with the occasionally swollen brass is a bad combination. We have blown a few up I am told and are currently looking at H&Ks. They don't seem to want to listen to me about it, I told them to buy afetr market Bbls years ago when they were buying them in. 9mm is no problemo, I can attest to that, shot $hitloads of lead through them.