BruceB acknowledged in Handloader

[AnthonyB]

Just read John Haviland's article on cast boolit expansion in the new Handloader, and he references BruceB's softnose casting procedure. I still think having Buckshot modify the desired mould to produce a HP is easier, but at least the idea is mentioned. Things like this make me appreciate this site even more - this really is the place to go for expert knowledge on cast boolits. Tony

[45nut]

can you scan or take a photo and post it for us? I would very much like to see it.

[AnthonyB]

Here is what he says:

"A fellow on the Internet site "Cast Boolits" says he pours in the soft lead to form the bullet nose. The he places the mould right up to the jaws of the handles in the molten lead in his furnace until the lead in the nose has melted. Then he pours in the hard lead. The pictures he posted show his bullets have no seams between the parts and are fully formed. I'm happy for him, but I'm not going to risk warping a mould by placing it in molten lead."

I think the tone of the paragraph is a little condescending, as Haviland obviously knows something us *ignrrrnt Cast Boolit guys who have tried this successfully don't, but at least he pointed some people toward the site.
Tony

*Not a typo, just my perception of the way the "real" experts see us.

[rugerman1]

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl260partial.pdf

[45nut]

he pointed some people toward the site

that's a fact and John Haviland, thanks!

[Maven]

I saw Haviland's article and was thinking about mentioning it here as well. I'm glad that Anthony B beat me to it! I too thought the reference was to Bruce B and yes, Haviland was a bit condescending.

[btroj]

I too didn't care for the tone of the mention of Bruce's method. Maving tried it, with good luck too, I can see why he didn't at least try it.
I actually prefer the 2 pot method to any of the other methods he mentioned. Works well for me and I suppose that's all that really matters. To me at least.
Brad

[Dutch4122]

..................................... and yes, Haviland was a bit condescending.

My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately I think that kind of "tone" from some of the gun magazine writers toward those of us on the net is something that isn't going to end any time soon.

[454PB]

Many of the theories from years ago have been disproved. I recall reading Lyman casting handbooks of 40 years ago that warned of mould warpage caused by preheating them. After I had been casting for about 6 months, I began preheating gingerly to speed up the process and found it does no harm.

Back then, Lyman recommended oiling your mould after use, then just casting until the oil burned off at the next use. Now, we all know what happens if you follow this practice.

[j20owner]

Hmm, I wonder where my copy of that mag is. I want to read about the 452424 mold and the .22 caliber wildcats......

[Bigjohn]

This issue hasn't arrived here down under just yet.

John

Just read the article from the website, interesting. At first reading, it appears that he did not find the ultimate goal?

J

[Buckshot]

My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately I think that kind of "tone" from some of the gun magazine writers toward those of us on the net is something that isn't going to end any time soon.

...............Yup, we're not "Published" and we're also unpaid, so what do we know? :-)

...............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Haviland at least tries some different things. He's not all "magnums or die" and some of his stuff is at least interesting. I think if john spent a few hours really casting and learning the ropes he'd do better.

If it wasn't for Brian Pearce I don't know if I'd continue to take Handloader. There's an awlful lot of fat and not much meat there anymore.

[BABore]

One method he failed to mention entirely is to torch anneal the nose of a heat treated boolit. Fast and easy to do, and it works. Seems many of these writer's don't get out much.

[jar-wv]

If it wasn't for Brian Pearce I don't know if I'd continue to take Handloader. There's an awlful lot of fat and not much meat there anymore.

Same here. Used to be a pretty good magazine, but it seems to be going the way off all the rest of em.

jar

[woody1]

I "know" BruceB. Who is John Haviland? Regards, Woody

[Recluse]

If it wasn't for Brian Pearce I don't know if I'd continue to take Handloader. There's an awlful lot of fat and not much meat there anymore.

After I don't know how many years, I finally let my subscription to Handloader lapse. I figured I might get the shakes and DTs much like a boozer does when his hoochie is suddenly taken away from him for good.

To my pleasant surprise, I haven't even noticed that Handloader is no longer in any of the magazine racks around the house.

Good analogy, Bret. Good way to cut down on the financial cholesterol is by eliminating the fat--and compared to yesteryear, there was just too much fluff and talk about absolutely nothing of relevant value to 99% of reloaders and casters out there in year's worth of magazines from Handloader.

:coffee:

[PatMarlin]

Jealousy is the finest form a flattery.

Hard to compete with the crew here, and still write a magazine article like you know what you're talkin' about ...:mrgreen:

[Calamity Jake]

Jealousy is the finest form a flattery.

Hard to compete with the crew here, and still write a magazine article like you know what you're talkin' about ...:mrgreen:


AMEN Brother!!!!!!:castmine::Fire:

[danski26]

I read the article also and picked up on the condescending overtone in the referance to this site. Overall it was an ok article on an interesting subject. I thought the omission of "hollowpointing" your favorite mold in the article showed incomplete research on the subject. I also seem to remember a similar article in handloader about 5 years ago that had better conclusions.

The past few issues of handloader have disappointed me but this issue seems to be a step up in my opinion. Of course Brian Pearce's and Mike V's articles where good but i was also pleased with the "readers" article "Understanding The 454424" by Roger Smith.

I was wondering why Mike V. didn't try a Lee factory crimp on those 30 carbine loads. Also how the firing pin protrusion compares in Mike's rifles, blackhawk and that AMT pistol.

[9.3X62AL]

It is quite nice to see both Cast Boolits and BruceB's softpoint casting method get mention in "Handloader" by John Havilland.

My subscription to "Handloader" lapsed some time ago. I do pick up most issues at Barnes & Noble in Redlands on trips south, though. Mike Venturino and Brian Pearce are the magazine's saving grace, in my opinion. While the magazine isn't what it once was, it remains the best of what's out there.

And one thing we might keep in mind in this context--most of us aren't the new-to-the-craft hobbyists that many of us were when we first picked up "Handloader". Cast Boolits continues to grow in depth and detail as do its members and their skill level, while mainstream media lags behind for whatever reason. I think print media operates at a considerable disadvantage.

In short, Ken built a better mousetrap.

[PatMarlin]

In short, Ken built a better mousetrap.


Well... why didn'tya just so Allen? ...:mrgreen:

[45nut]

I think the exposure of even the term "Cast Boolits" in print is an amazing statement in itself.

I do wish he included the definition as in my signature but that day is coming fast. :castmine:

Some of you guys that signed on as charter members know this was not meant to be anything but a place to gather ideas, methods and experiences along the path of our silver stream.

We have accomplished much, and will continue to make advances in showing how things can be done and make the "Cast Boolit" seem ever more viable and preferred not as merely a cheap option, but a preferred choice in handloaded ammunition.

It is a continuing journey, and so far, quite a success. I think the mention is a acknowledgment of that.

[danski26]

In the April 2003 handloader issue #222 Is an article "Casting Softnose Bullets" by Ross Seyfried.

[leftiye]

"Hard to compete with the crew here, and still write a magazine article like you know what you're talkin' " - Pat Marlin


Most people I know sound like they know what they're talking about no matter if they know anything or not. No insult intended to anyone, life's just full of bullitt shippers. It's an ego deficiency, I think, and America has an epidemic of it. Whatever happened to quiet self confidence, and leaving bragging to jerks? Or - is that what HAS happened?

[tommag]

In the April 2003 handloader issue #222 Is an article "Casting Softnose Bullets" by Ross Seyfried.

Ross's article used a secondary pot composed of a piece of copper tubing holding pb in the main pot. He used a dipper made out of a small cartridge case to pour a small amount of pure pb into the mold, followed with a dose of a harder alloy. I thought it was a good idea and tried it with good results.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Yup, Mr. Haviland "Almost " made it sound like he recognized US Non-Pedigree cast boolit types , maybe as a lesser mortal than he, but we are out here.:roll:

I sure hope he never "Warps" a mold by warming it in the hot lead !!! Lord , deliver me, I am surrounded with ......I won't go there.[smilie=1:

I'm glad to see others read this also. I got P.O. when I read it last week , so I did not pass it on. When I started the article , I thought we might see something nice, but no, he could not go there.:oops:

I guess that is what happens when you become an "Expert" and pass out information for money :redneck:

[danski26]

I reread the Ross Seyfried article and noticed that he sugested on eof the keys is getting the mold hot enough and also sugested heating it in the melt.

I think it would have been better if Mr Haviland would have tried this method a bunch of times and noted if the mold warped and how his boolits turned out instead of including his untested opinion in his article.

[Recluse]

Here is what he says:

"A fellow on the Internet site "Cast Boolits" says he pours in the soft lead to form the bullet nose. The he places the mould right up to the jaws of the handles in the molten lead in his furnace until the lead in the nose has melted. Then he pours in the hard lead. The pictures he posted show his bullets have no seams between the parts and are fully formed. I'm happy for him, but I'm not going to risk warping a mould by placing it in molten lead."

Guess I'm just slow today and tonight, but something about that kept nagging and nagging at me. It wasn't until I was out in the shop late this evening mixing up a batch of alloy for some harder-than-normal boolits (for some test magnum loads) that it finally dawned on me.

A. Maybe Mr. Haviland ought to check with a few mould makers whose instructions suggest/recommend dipping the mould in the hot alloy to expedite the heating of it.

B. If a casting session of say, oh, five hundred to a thousand boolits doesn't get the mould hot enough to warp, or the temperature variations of cooling/heating hundreds of times during a casting session doesn't cause a mould to warp. . . why would the very brief contact with the alloy cause the mould to behave any differently?

C. Why would casting boolits in a mould with alloy heated to say 750F, and the mould reaching that same temp of 750F . . . why would dipping the mould in the alloy to sustain temperature cause it to warp?

Good example of why I pay so little attention to most "journalists" these days.

:coffee:

[PatMarlin]

Sorry for my -trying to be funny comment above Al, it didn't type out right ..:mrgreen:

"Journalists"... I can remember as far back as elementary school the teacher telling us about a reporter, a journalist who uses the important fundamentals of research when writing a story with "Who, What, When, Where, and Why".

As I got older I realized much of what I read was missing one of those fundamental principals which conveniently twists what was written just enough to alter the facts for some misleading purpose like ego, political bias, corruption, greed, what have you.

Now everything you read is missing one of the 5.

So if a magazine that employs supposedly experienced, knowledgeable, and expert writers in their field- that we are to learn from and pay good money to do so write in this way what's the use? And what a waste of hard earned money... :roll:

[danski26]

I would like to invite Mr Havilland to join this discussion if he is lurking. I am willing to go out on a limb and pledge to be a gentleman in this discussion and I believe almost every other member would welcome your input and conduct themselves above reproach also.

[hammerhead357]

+1 for what danski said. Come on Mr. Haviland step up to the plate and let us see what your response is to these posts.
I also have never warped a mould by setting it on the molten lead. I also have always used a hot plate with a steel plate on it for preheating but when casting soft point boolits I use the BruceB method after the moulds have been preheated. Well I use what I think was his original method and that involves the use of 2 pots one with pure lead for the soft nose and another of the alloy of your choice for the rest of the boolit...Wes

[fishhawk]

what!? some one of his caliber actualy lowering himself to talk to the great unwashed of a internet forum? we doan kno nutting aboot casting! only writer i know of that actualy is big enough to even be here is Mike Venturino which raises his credability in my eyes. steve k

[PatMarlin]

Ditto on that one bout' Mike, Steve.

[Recluse]

Ditto on that one bout' Mike, Steve.

Agreed and +1

:coffee:

[monadnock#5]

C'mon guys, I think we should cut Mr. Haviland just a little slack here. Just a WAG on my part, but I bet Mr. Haviland owns nothing but the: finest, vintage, collectible, non aluminum, antique, out of production, rare, super fine, custom made, Finest Parian Meehanite, one of a kind moulds known to man. Would you sacrifice any mould thus described at the altar of common knowledge? H'MMMMM???? Well OK, some would. So why don't we?

We need to donate to Mr. Haviland a mould of known casting ability, and capable of withstanding the blast furnace heat of the melting pot. A sheet of complete instructions should also be included. Lets make sure Mr. Haviland has the tools needed to further his education.

[MT Gianni]

When I lived in Missoula and regularly visited Western Bullets, Jon the owner there said that he and I [Mr haviland] looked too much alike. I know which range he shot at and that he cast as well as bought hard to find designs. In the 15 + years I was a member at that range I rarely saw another person shooting when I shot from Nov - Aug and don't remember many shooting cast that were not shooting BP. I think he probably deserves a little slack when I remember how set in our ways certain of us are when it comes to Rotational Speeds, 7383, politics and many other threads.
I would donate a Lee 113 fp mold to John Haviland if he asked and give him the opportunity to warp it.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm with Gianni--I'll cut Mr. Havilland some slack. While his tone might have been a little superior, let's remember that sites like Cast Boolits are 'busting his rice bowl', a la "The Sand Pebbles". A little annoyance can't help but creep into the text. And we don't know whether the short-cutted process description in the magazine was an author-based deletion or the work of an editor and their mania for space-saving.

I'm just happy to see BruceB and Cast Boolits receive acknowledgement in the mainstream gun press. I won't split hairs beyond that point.

For the record, I have yet to warp a mould block of any material via dipping into the melt. This may be nothing more than another Urban Casting Legend that has been debunked here via the collective experience of hundreds of hobbyists--like the bit about Micro-Groove barrels being unsuitable for cast boolits.

[Recluse]

I'd be more than willing to cut Haviland a bit of slack if he came here, tried the method he questioned, discovered that the moulds simply are NOT going to "warp," and then retracted that in next edition's Handloader.

Problem is, the readership who does not visit here (or any other casting/reloading forum) will take his word as gospel, and that's how such silly myths get perpetuated into false truths.

I couldn't give a hoot in Hades about what some Newsweek writer thinks, but I do want my gun writers to get it right. We already have enough mis-truths floating around when it comes to guns, ownership of guns, reloading, casting, etc etc.

:coffee:

[badgeredd]

Recluse said,

"I couldn't give a hoot in Hades about what some Newsweek writer thinks, but I do want my gun writers to get it right. We already have enough mis-truths floating around when it comes to guns, ownership of guns, reloading, casting, etc etc."

I totally agree with recluse's take on the issue. It is nice someone has mentioned our sight (unfortunately didn't mention the poster by name), but unfortunate that the "superior" tone was injected. I've never subscribed to HANDLOADER mainly because I limit my subscriptions to a few mags. I've often picked up issues that articles that I find particularly interesting. As has been said, the fat is more abundant in it than it was a few years ago, as has Rifle.

Thank the good Lord we have Mike V. here... At least one professional is aware that others might have good information to offer.

BTW, I tried to warp an old Ideal mold...just to see if I could. I wasn't able to with just the use of heat up to 1200 degrees. Warpage usually is a product of rapid heat cycles and/or inferior metals or uneven heating. I suspect that better metallurgy has a lot to do with it, IF it was ever possible.

Edd

[JSnover]

Would it be wrong for someone to write a polite letter to Handloader? It won't surprise me if we see a response in the next issue. BruceB should get first crack.

[HORNET]

Fishhawk & Pat seem to have forgotten about klw, who used to get the occasional article published. Even if he did catch substantial flak for stating that he preferred to buy alloy of known composition rather than relying on the vagaries of the common wheelweight. A statement that some other members have agreed with since, for varying reasons.

[anachronism]

The fact of the matter is that you can get a lot more here, without charge than you could ever get from a magazine. The internet is cutting into a lot of profits for the printed media. I too let my Wolfe subscriptions lapse some time ago. I cut them off after Ross Seyfried got booted. Wolfe cut John Barsness last year, and HE had a large following too. The real Wolfe bashing is at 24hourcampfire.com. Wolfe can't sneeze without someone there calling them on it.

"Journalist"? How gracious!

[PatMarlin]

Problem is, the readership who does not visit here (or any other casting/reloading forum) will take his word as gospel, and that's how such silly myths get perpetuated into false truths.



Ya but if they read the instructions- like all us men are supposed to do, they will find LEE has been telling folks to dip their AL molds in hot lead now for what... 50 years?

And if any mold out there would be prone to warp it would be a light LEE mold I would imagine ...:mrgreen:

[singleshotbuff]

I continue to buy most issues of handloader mag because I can't take my computer to the crapper.

May sound crude, but that's the only place I read gun rags anymore.

SSB

[mroliver77]

I continue to buy most issues of handloader mag because I can't take my computer to the crapper.

May sound crude, but that's the only place I read gun rags anymore.

SSB

I had to post this. I can and do take mine there.
Jay

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/mroliver77/006-1.jpg

[Bret4207]

I can cut Haviland some slack. At least he tries odd and unusual stuff unlike most of the writers out there who are just salesmen for the advertisers. And when you come down to it do you think Scoville would let an article get by the editing process that recommended dipping a mould in the melt? No way. Some clown would try it and somehow lose an eye or become sterile and sue the magazine.