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azcoyhunter
02-27-2006, 10:53 PM
Shooters


Can I shoot my Marlin Lever action with Black Powder?

I have never used Black Powder, so I do not know anything!!

Do I have to use gas checks?

What powder, can I use the same primers?

What grain bullet do you recommend?

As you can see, I am all ears.


Thanks

Clint

9.3X62AL
02-27-2006, 11:07 PM
The 30-30 WCF was specifically designed to use the then-new smokeless powder, so was not factory-loaded with The Holy Black. The 32 Winchester Special--it's slightly fatter-bored cousin--was set up so that once the smokeless factory loads were fired, the spent cases could be loaded with black powder if the operator so desired. the 32 Winchester Special had a 1-16" twist to allegedly work better with black powder fouling than the 30-30's 1-12" pitch. I can only imagine what black powder fouling would do to Microgroove rifling.

I'm sure someone has tried black powder in the 30-30, maybe even someone who posts here--what says y'all? My black powder cartridge work has been limited to the 45-70, which was a rousing success--and the 44-40, which was not so great.

Dale53
02-27-2006, 11:12 PM
Understand that while I have extensive BPCR experience I have NOT shot the 30/30 with black powder.
Yes, you can do it but I wonder why? :razz: (just curious). Using Goex 3f or 2f you can fill the case, and compress up to .300" then seat the bullet. I would use the standard bullet weight (150-170 grs). You would NOT need to use gas checks. A .060" wad might be nice. I would use a LDPE wad of this thickness. The 30/30 neck is long enough to do well with BP, I would think.

It is extremely important to use a proper BP lubricant. The standard is SPG. I use Emmert's Home Mix (50% natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil). I have lately been using 5% Anhydrous Lanolin and 5% Canola Oil instead of 10% Canola.

Standard primers will be just fine.

A cast bullet of 25/1 (lead /tin) will be about optimum alloy for BP.

Good luck!
Dale53

omgb
02-27-2006, 11:56 PM
BP is not going to push that slug more than maybe 1100 fps at best. There's just not enough room for powder in that case. Another hassle is going to be the clean up. The action mechanism is not going to make the job easy. If you wanted to, Triple 7 from Hodgdon would give better velocity and eliminate the fouling problem you will have after just two or three rounds with BP. Of course, just using smokeless would be a whole lot easier and a whole lot more satifying in the 30-30. BP is great stuff in the guns designed to exploit its better points. The 30-30 is not one of these. It would be safe and it would work, but not very well.

KCSO
02-28-2006, 12:03 AM
NO

If you clean between every shot and load a slightly compressed load of FFg you can get a pattern of about 2" at 50 yards. My smokless loads run under an inch at the same range. If you try to shoot 3 without claeaning the bullets go sideways. It really isn't practical.

wills
02-28-2006, 12:12 AM
That’s kind of like the age old question “Can I hunt Grizzly Bears with a fly rod?” Yes you can, but you might be less than entirely pleased with the results.

You might be happier if you get a caliber and rifle intended for black, 40-65, .45-70, .45-90, 38-55 come to mind.

azcoyhunter
03-01-2006, 12:33 AM
Another dumb question

Where could a guy that has limited funds find a rifle such as a .45-70

I have alwas wanted to shoot black powder.

Clint

omgb
03-01-2006, 02:03 AM
Limited funds? That depends on how limited. An H&R or NEF Handi Rifle can be had used in 45-70 for around $200 if one looks enough. Likewise 38-55. Anything else is going to start costing some much bigger money. You might find a Ruger single shot for around $600 used and a Pedersoli Rolling Block used will run around $700. Any of the Sharps replicas that are worth owning, ie. Pedersoli, C Sharps or Shiloh are going to start around $1200 and run upwards of $3,500. I think and H&R Trapdoor replica runs around $800 or so. So like I said, what's limited all depends on the individual. Wish I could be more specific but that's the best i can do with what you have given me.

9.3X62AL
03-01-2006, 02:44 AM
AZ--

By "shooting black powder", do you mean black powder cartridge rifles, muzzle loaders, or ? There are a large number of VERY knowledgeable sources here on both venues, so speak right up.

As OMGB has alluded to, to a large degree you get what you pay for--although the NEF/H&R Handi-Rifles are a stone bargain, considering what you get for the price paid. My Ruger #1 is sort of a mid-point price-wise between the H&R and the Sharps repros. I've used The Holy Black in the #1 and got fine accuracy, but the clean-up required after shooting THB is not an "option"--it is a REQUIREMENT, or ruined bores and cartridge cases are assured. The work involved is not extensive or laborious, but it must be done.

jh45gun
03-01-2006, 03:46 AM
The NEF Handi rifle in 45/70 is a bargain I had one and liked it. The only reason I got rid of it was when I built my Rolling block in 45/70 I felt I would never shoot the handi rifle that much because I like the Roller so much. Price on this is about 700 bucks by the time I got done so even that is not a cheap way to go. The NEF would be your best bet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/jh45gun/RemRoller.jpg

Dale53
03-01-2006, 12:38 PM
I recently (November) purchased a Ruger #3 for $350 in 45/70 on one of my regular forums. I actually knew the fellow that had it for sale. It is about 95% and perfect inside. Really excellent buy for a terrific rifle. Maybe one of the all time great rifles to carry a lot hunting and shoot just a little (it only weighs about 6-6.5 lbs and with the loads that this rifle will handle, will really make you sit up and take notice).

The buys are out there, you just have to pay attention and be ready to JUMP.

Dale53

wills
03-01-2006, 09:27 PM
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/al1674.htm

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/al1696.htm

azcoyhunter
03-01-2006, 11:48 PM
Wow

Thanks to all, very generous info giving!!!

What I want "NEED" is a Black Powder Cartridge rifle. S.O. says do not NEED but what does she know?? A man's need is a man's need!

I do not know anything about them, Is there a good book that you would recommend?

I want to know more, and I find it really interesting!!!

Another Question???

Is there such thing as a "Kit" Black Powder Cartridge rifle, I think that would be the best of both worlds.
Clint

jh45gun
03-01-2006, 11:51 PM
Not that I know of but then a NEF is priced complete for about the same amount of money or less even of most muzzle loader kits. it is a good deal for the cash.

azcoyhunter
03-01-2006, 11:55 PM
Just ordered a catalog from NEF

Thanks again for all the info.

Clint

versifier
03-02-2006, 12:48 AM
Clint,
There are some serious quality issues with the current NEF's, though the barrels are very accurate. As long as you are shooting low pressure loads, you may not have a problem, but then again you may. Look over my postings on them here and on the Reloders Guide forum. Many members here are happy with theirs, but many (including me) have had some real problems with them loosening up with regular use. I have heard horror stories from former employees that leave me seriously concerned about their current quality. They are inexpensive, but you get what you pay for. If I wanted a single shot, I'd save up and buy a T/C Encore.

wills
03-02-2006, 01:15 AM
Perhaps it would be more articulate if someone asked what you intend to do with the rifle: plink, hunt, sanctioned BPCR silhouette, mid-range or Creedmore matches?

Try a Google search for BPCR or for BPCRS. Also, if you can find a match you can attend, go, talk to the shooters. Even if you are not looking for a competition rifle the shooters may have or know of something that would interest you.

w30wcf
03-02-2006, 03:28 PM
Well, there are better calibers for black powder, but with the right components (critical) it can be made to work as reloaders of the late 1800's early 1900's have found.

Interestingly, Marlin's 1897 catalog does indicate that in addition to reloading with smokeless powder, blackpowder could be used in the .30-30.

HOWEVER, blackpowder back in the late 1890's was highly refined, designed to burn with a moist and minimum residuum resulting in minimal fouling. Current b.p.'smanufactured in the U.S. do not have these attributes. Swiss b.p. is the powder of choice to closely replicate those b.p.'s of a bi gone era.

Early .30-30 cast bullet designs illustrated in the same 1897 catalog were multi grooved to hold a lot of lube, similar to the Loverin style bullets introduced in the 1950's. I have used the 150 gr. Loverin and an LBT 160 gr. bullet for b.p. loads in my .30-30's. Both hold more than enough SPG b.p. lubricant.

With 44 grs. of Swiss 3F, I have achieved 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards. Groups with smokeless powder run about 1/2 of that. Velocity with this load actually reaches 1,600 f.p.s. making it an "Express" cartridge by 1890's definition. I have fired upwards of 15 shots in a row with no accuracy deterioration using Swiss b.p.

Have fun!

w30wcf

floodgate
03-02-2006, 11:15 PM
A reprint of a Savage 1903 catalog lists Savage headstamped ("S. A. .303") .303 Savage cartridges with the standard nickel jacketed 180-gr.(?) soft-point bullets, loaded with 40 grs. of Black Powder. (Velocity and actual bullet weight are not stated.) They also loaded .30&30's, but not with BP. Since the .303 and .30&30 are similar in case capacity and performance, this suggests such loadings are possible and practical. I'm tempted to try a few in my Model 99 lightweight.

floodgate

azcoyhunter
03-03-2006, 12:03 AM
Shooters

Thanks for al the info.

Mostly what I want to shoot is targets till I get good enough, then hunt with it, If I ever get lucky enough to get drawn, for deer.

Clint

versifier
03-03-2006, 01:40 PM
I don't know how much hassle it would be to clean the fouling out of the workings of a lever action after shooting bp, but I don't imagine you can just dunk them in hot water and pump the barrel a bit. Maybe someone who has and does could comment on it. Bp and most of the substitutes are dirty and messy in use, and you can't wait for a few days before cleaning as the residues are also corrosive.
A bolt action or a single shot might require removal of the stock, unless the ss is a break action. Despite my misgivings about the H&R's, they would be very easy to clean. With a m/l with hooked breech, it's a simple matter to take off the barrel and clean it. Only the hammer really needs anything more than wiping down, and that's a minute or two with a few qtips.

McLintock
03-03-2006, 02:02 PM
You first need to decide whether you want a repeater or single shot, then decide on cartridge. A couple of good books are by Mike Venturino and titled "Shooting Lever guns of the Old West" and "Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Old West", as he goes into the different models of each and loads for them, especially black powder in the latter one. A straight walled case is preferable, as bottle necked ones like the 30-30 are more difficult to load, but you can do it. Sharps made several bottle necked cartridges in the black powder only era, but most people shoot the straight walled cases these days. The 45-70 is considered the "beginners" cartridge, but it's very broad spectrum and will do about everything you want. It's available in many modern arms like the Marlin 1895 Cowboy and lots of single shots. The 38-55 and 40-65 or 40-70 Sharps Straight are also good possibilities. A round coming back and available in several modern rifles like the Ruger No.1 and Winchester 95 clone, is the 405 Winchester, which is almost the same as the 40-70 Sharps Straight, and a very good black powder cartridge. It'd do nicely on the elk we have in Northern Az also; I live in Dewey now but lived in Flagstaff for over 30 years, so it's great hunting country if you get drawn.
As far as cleaning a lever gun, it's no problem if you use good powder like 30 WCF commented on. I was out yesterday and put almost 20 rounds through my '94 in 38-55 with 41 gr of Swiss 1 1/2 and all it took to clean it was two wet patches (Ballistol and water), two dry patches and one with Ballistol on it for barrel protection. No cleaning of the action was needed. Also, I was shooting at 180 yards and it was just as accurate with the 20th shot as the first, without any barrel cleaning in between shots. I shot it all last year in Cowboy Action long range matches and never had to clean the action, period.
McLintock

9.3X62AL
03-04-2006, 01:19 PM
I've cleaned a Ruger #1 x 45-70 and a Win '73 x 44-40 after shooting black powder, and Versifier makes a very good point about the corrosive nature of BP. I went through a pretty thorough detail cleaning of both rifles' internals using Hoppe's #9 Plus BP cleaner. There actually wasn't a whole lot of BP debris in the mechanisms.

The bores, of course, had their share of soot! I didn't want to get the Murphy's/alcohol/hyd-per mix inside the guns' mechanisms, but the stuff does a very fine job of removing BP fouling post haste. I still flush the barrel with HOT water after using this stuff, and get some oil on the metal as soon as it dries.

omgb
03-04-2006, 01:57 PM
I'm not too sure I see any advantage to using special cleaners for BP. I use plain old water followed by Ed's Red with lanolin. I have used a 50/50 mix of Prestone and water and that works very well but no more so than just plain water. I've also used Balistol and water and that works well too. But again, so does ordinary water. I'd love for someone to tell me what I'm missing....seriously, I'm open to learn. I made some bore pigs a couple of years ago and use them all the time at the range but again, I just wet them in ordinary water. Like I said above, I do use Ed's Red with lanolin before storage but other than that, I have yet to find the need for a better BP solvent than water. As I say though, I'm open for advice.
R J Talley

9.3X62AL
03-04-2006, 02:10 PM
RJ--

I tend to agree with you on the BP cleaning ability of plain old water. The solvents rely on a high water content anyway. The solvents do have their place--I suppose--but my "default setting" with the smokepoles is a bucket of hot water--the first one soapy, the next one clear. I thought at the times I've belabored the rifle mechanisms with the Hoppe's Plus that just hosing the things out with water might be a better method. If the wooden parts were synthetic, that's what I'd do.

Of course, Glocks don't use BP, and plastic on a muzzle loader is like a camper shell on a Testarossa.......so the dishwasher route loses merit.

felix
03-04-2006, 02:14 PM
Possibly plain ol' water with a shot of clear vinegar will be a better cleaner. Lower the ph slightly. Then douse with distilled water, dry, and do the WD-40 equivalent patch to displace the water. ... felix

Junior1942
03-04-2006, 02:38 PM
I use plain ol' dishwater, and when I'm through cleaning the black powder firearm I wash dishes in the same water.

floodgate
03-05-2006, 12:09 AM
omgb:

A REAL Ol' Timer - when I was a young squirt, he was old enough to have loaded .30-40 gallery rounds with BP as a Marine before WW I - told me to do my first cleaning passes with COLD water; that it works better than hot, or any soap or additive, to shake the fouling loose (I've tried it, and it works for me); then finish up with boiling water to heat the metal and get it to air-dry.

floodgate

azcoyhunter
03-06-2006, 11:48 PM
Wow

Thanks to all

There is alot more to this BP than I thought.

That to me makes it better, if it was easy or fast everybody would do it.

I need to save my pennys, and go from there, thanks to all, I will read and re-read the posts here, and I will, I am sure, ask many more dumb questions.

Thanks

Clint

w30wcf
03-08-2006, 12:33 AM
When it comes to cleaning B.P. from my .32 Colt '92M, .44 W.C.F. '73 or my .45-70M, (and .30-30), I just shoot a few cast bullet smokeless loads through and clean as I would after a session with smokeless powder.

I know, I know, cleaning a barrel fouled with B.P. is part of the experience and I've done it enough times, but the barrels on the .32 and .44 ar pitted and somewhat rough and it takes a bunch of cleaning patches and b.p. solvent to get them clean. A few rounds of smokless after b.p. makes the cleaning chore that much easier.

w30wcf

oksmle
03-10-2006, 03:07 PM
Folks .... Lot of talk & not much action. so I loaded 20 Remington .30/30 cases with 29.5 grains FFFG black powder (wouldn't take 30 grains) which is a compressed load with Lyman's #311291, my lube & Remington 9 1/2 primers. Rifle: '94 Winchester pre '64 with 1/12" twist. From the bench both 10 round groups were about 1 1/2' lower than my usual group placement at 75 yards but were close enough to the same size that the difference was probably me & not the ammo. I intentionally did not clean between rounds & the rifle & brass sat around a couple of hours after I got home before any cleaning was done.
I opened the breech, put a piece of duct tape over the innards, turned the rifle upside down in my rifle vise & cleaned with soapy water from the muzzle. Nothing got into the action that way & the bore cleaned up very easily. About like cleaning after FMJ's. After depriming the cases I dumped them into the dishwasher (along with a load of Mrs. oksmle's dirty dishes), & they came out sparkling & dry. No recoil. Plenty of smoke & lots of fun.
oksmle

azcoyhunter
03-12-2006, 12:41 PM
Folks .... Lot of talk & not much action. so I loaded 20 Remington .30/30 cases with 29.5 grains FFFG black powder (wouldn't take 30 grains) which is a compressed load with Lyman's #311291, my lube & Remington 9 1/2 primers. Rifle: '94 Winchester pre '64 with 1/12" twist. From the bench both 10 round groups were about 1 1/2' lower than my usual group placement at 75 yards but were close enough to the same size that the difference was probably me & not the ammo. I intentionally did not clean between rounds & the rifle & brass sat around a couple of hours after I got home before any cleaning was done.
I opened the breech, put a piece of duct tape over the innards, turned the rifle upside down in my rifle vise & cleaned with soapy water from the muzzle. Nothing got into the action that way & the bore cleaned up very easily. About like cleaning after FMJ's. After depriming the cases I dumped them into the dishwasher (along with a load of Mrs. oksmle's dirty dishes), & they came out sparkling & dry. No recoil. Plenty of smoke & lots of fun.
oksmle

As you probaly know by now I do not know much about BP.

First, is there a different, primer then for smokeless? I have not heard of a 9 1/2 primer?

Do you just fill up the case?

**** I should just get a book.

I bet you are getting tired of my questions.

Clint